down to 3 choices

[Pogre]

I'm gonna say there is a setup issue. One thing is I wonder if the bic has hump in its response. Maybe around 35 hz? That would give the impression of more explosive bass, but is normally at the expense of true extension. That can take some getting used to when you switch to a big boy sub. The mk5 sounds cleaner because it is, and it's linear with deeper extension. What did you do for setup? Audyssey, ypao, or manually set levels and phase etc. pogre is right. Placement is KING when it comes to setting up a subwoofer. IMO, there's not one place where the bic would be better. However for a budget sub they do seem to be a good value. I suspect you'll need to spend some more time setting it up.

That was the first thing I noticed when I went from a cheap sub to a real one. At first I didn't think it was working right then I realized what I wasn't hearing was distortion. The boom was gone, but that was perceived as more volume to me until I heard a real one. That's when I learned about positioning and fine tuning.

Brady, I'm with Liam. There's a setup issue or something. One thing I'd try is setting all of the crossovers to 80. that will give your sub a little more punch. Also, run room correction software. That can also help quite a bit. Experiment with different spots in the room. There isn't one single area where the MK doesn't out perform that bic.

 

[bradymartin]

Audyssey XT and XT32 both eq the sub. SubEQ feature in your 3300 is an ability to set level and delay for two different subs (but they are eq'd together by Audyssey).

I'm guessing it's partially placement/setup, but also perhaps just the frequency response hump that was mentioned, and that perhaps a flatter response is something you're not accustomed to. Hard to know from where I sit, tho. Did you do the subwoofer crawl to help determine position in the new room?

the 1712 audyssey xt doesnt eq the sub.

i cant do subwoofer crawl because my bedroom is small and only two places to place the sub. the corner of the room, or somewhere along the left wall. plus i thought corner of a room would be best for bass.

the mk5 sounds better i think, smoother. but it goes down to 18, i dont get it. maybe i need to watch a movie that goes lower than spr? i thought watching spr i would immediately notice the difference between the mk5 and f12

looking forward to tomorrow and redo everything.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think spr only goes down to 26hz. Try something like hacksaw ridge, or something newer. I noticed in "the shallows" there's a few scenes with really deep stuff. How to train your dragon has a lot of deep stuff and one of my favorites is chapter 4 of master and commander, DVD(not blu ray. It has a 30hz filter. Dumb). It will test your room and sub. Trim is sweet too. Check data-bass.com, or blue ray review or even avs for bass threads to find newer tracks with killer bass. Spr was good in its day but something like "Fury is in another league.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1333462-new-master-list-bass-movies-frequency-charts.html#/topics/1333462
http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/

 

[lovinthehd]

the 1712 audyssey xt doesnt eq the sub.

i cant do subwoofer crawl because my bedroom is small and only two places to place the sub. the corner of the room, or somewhere along the left wall. plus i thought corner of a room would be best for bass.

the mk5 sounds better i think, smoother. but it goes down to 18, i dont get it. maybe i need to watch a movie that goes lower than spr? i thought watching spr i would immediately notice the difference between the mk5 and f12

looking forward to tomorrow and redo everything.

Yes, Audyssey XT eq's the sub, has less filters than XT32, tho....try the explanation in this thread at Audyssey https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347743-MultEQ-Pro-vs-MultEQ-XT-and-MultEQ-XT32. Or do you have some specific info about the XT in the 1712 not doing this?

Limited sub placement can be problematic. You could see at least which of the two positions are actually better in your usual listening position. Try this article http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/subwoofer-placement-guidelines

I'm not sure what your expectation is simply because the sub extends a bit deeper and has less distortion; cleaner or smoother might be reasonable, tho. 18hz isn't even all that audible for many except at fairly high volume. Much bass content is above that in movies, too. Some good suggestions in this thread and maybe even measurements for Saving Private Ryan (assume that is spr) http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page-143

ps seems a few of us were thinking along the same lines

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yes, Audyssey XT eq's the sub, has less filters than XT32, tho....try the explanation in this thread at Audyssey https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347743-MultEQ-Pro-vs-MultEQ-XT-and-MultEQ-XT32. Or do you have some specific info about the XT in the 1712 not doing this?

Limited sub placement can be problematic. You could see at least which of the two positions are actually better in your usual listening position. Try this article http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/subwoofer-placement-guidelines

I'm not sure what your expectation is simply because the sub extends a bit deeper and has less distortion; cleaner or smoother might be reasonable, tho. 18hz isn't even all that audible for many except at fairly high volume. Much bass content is above that in movies, too. Some good suggestions in this thread and maybe even measurements for Saving Private Ryan (assume that is spr) http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page-143

ps seems a few of us were thinking along the same lines

Roger that!

 

[shadyJ]

I will say that if you never pushed the BIC very hard, there is not reason to think the VTF-2 will sound very different at nominal volume levels. The only difference would be the extension, and that is only if the content actually has very deep bass extension in it. Also keep in mind it is very difficult to hear deep bass at soft or moderate loudness levels. It is at higher output levels that the VTF-2 would differentiate itself, presuming the BIC is a competently built subwoofer.

Saving Private Ryan is not a movie with a lot of deep bass. If I recall right, most of the bass lay above 30 Hz.

If you want to see the difference deeper extension makes, try this: play the 'pods rising' scene in War of the Worlds, starting at the point the alien machine starts coming out of the street, but switch between the VTF-2's operating modes during the scene to hear the difference. Start the scene with both ports open and operating mode switch set to 'EQ2' with the Q control at 0.3. Now during the scene, plug a port, set the operating mode switch to 'EQ1' and Q control to 0.7. War of the Worlds has deep enough bass that the difference in deep frequency extension should be audible.

You can switch modes between scenes, but if you are cranking the movie hard, be sure not to run the VTF-2 with both ports open and the operating mode switch set to 'EQ1' because the driver will not be properly safeguarded in that condition. Every other combination of operating mode configurations is safe, just don't run two ports open on EQ1.

If you want to see the difference in dynamic range that the VTF-2 has over the BIC, set it to two ports open on EQ2 and blast a tune that has tons of bass. Any of the tunes in this thread will fit that bill. Don't be afraid to crank the VTF-2 HARD, it can take it.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was working under the assumption that since he was saying he could "feel" it so much more that he was driving the BIC fairly hard. Agree, tuning it up for output might help too.

 

[bradymartin]

I will say that if you never pushed the BIC very hard, there is not reason to think the VTF-2 will sound very different at nominal volume levels. The only difference would be the extension, and that is only if the content actually has very deep bass extension in it. Also keep in mind it is very difficult to hear deep bass at soft or moderate loudness levels. It is at higher output levels that the VTF-2 would differentiate itself, presuming the BIC is a competently built subwoofer.

Saving Private Ryan is not a movie with a lot of deep bass. If I recall right, most of the bass lay above 30 Hz.

If you want to see the difference deeper extension makes, try this: play the 'pods rising' scene in War of the Worlds, starting at the point the alien machine starts coming out of the street, but switch between the VTF-2's operating modes during the scene to hear the difference. Start the scene with both ports open and operating mode switch set to 'EQ2' with the Q control at 0.3. Now during the scene, plug a port, set the operating mode switch to 'EQ1' and Q control to 0.7. War of the Worlds has deep enough bass that the difference in deep frequency extension should be audible.

You can switch modes between scenes, but if you are cranking the movie hard, be sure not to run the VTF-2 with both ports open and the operating mode switch set to 'EQ1' because the driver will not be properly safeguarded in that condition. Every other combination of operating mode configurations is safe, just don't run two ports open on EQ1.

If you want to see the difference in dynamic range that the VTF-2 has over the BIC, set it to two ports open on EQ2 and blast a tune that has tons of bass. Any of the tunes in this thread will fit that bill. Don't be afraid to crank the VTF-2 HARD, it can take it.

i havent tried war of the worlds yet but i tried the eq2 both ports open, control 0.3 and 0.7, on denon sub bass set to lfe + main

i listened to the chainsmokers - dont let me down, that song has good bass
set to direct and stereo, no difference in bass
my towers are the klipsch rp280s, they have good bass so i dont really need a sub for music

now im wondering if the subwoofer is even working?

the woofer does move when active

 

[Pogre]

i havent tried war of the worlds yet but i tried the eq2 both ports open, control 0.3 and 0.7, on denon sub bass set to lfe + main

i listened to the chainsmokers - dont let me down, that song has good bass
set to direct and stereo, no difference in bass
my towers are the klipsch rp280s, they have good bass so i dont really need a sub for music

now im wondering if the subwoofer is even working?

the woofer does move when active

I don't run my speakers lfe+main. It really muddies up my bass response. I do lfe only and set my towers' crossover at 80hz. For movies I think (still experimenting) I prefer eq1, 1 port open and for music eq2, both ports open. I like the extra oomph for music and some movies will test your sub all the way down to 10 hz or so (beginning of Edge of Tomorrow). I've done a lot of experimenting with different modes, but I dont think I've adjusted the Q from 0.7... I should start playing around with that.

 

[bradymartin]

i just did test tones using the denon. speakers make sound except for the sub, the woofer vibrates minimally. and i could barely hear anything if i put my ear next to it.

i think im giving hsu a call

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's a good idea. They can walk you through everything, and nobody knows their product better. And they would be authorized to have you do procedures that we are not and could void warranty.

 

[roadwarrior]

i just did test tones using the denon. speakers make sound except for the sub, the woofer vibrates minimally. and i could barely hear anything if i put my ear next to it.

i think im giving hsu a call

If you're checking test tones manually you need to raise the volume knob as manual tones aren't played at a preset level plus turn off that LFE plus bass feature. It duplicates your bass under the crossover to both the sub and your mains and can cause phase issues. Set it to just LFE under bass mgmt and demo it again. Could be the sub itself but it could be these issues as well.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If you're checking test tones manually you need to raise the volume knob as manual tones aren't played at a preset level plus turn off that LFE plus bass feature. It duplicates your bass under the crossover to both the sub and your mains and can cause phase issues. Set it to just LIFE under bass mgmt and demo it again. Could be the sub itself but it could be these issues as well.

Totally agree with disabling the lfe+mains.
But my avr does output at preset volume and can only be changed in the "level" menu. Volume doesn't do anything during tones. Iirc that was on older units.

 

[roadwarrior]

Totally agree with disabling the lfe+mains.

Good deal

But my avr does output at preset volume and can only be changed in the "level" menu. Volume doesn't do anything during tones. Iirc that was on older units.

Assuming you're using your newer Denon receiver that's incorrect. Manual test tones on the newer Denon's aren't output at a preset level. The Auto test tones are(which is what you actually might be in if as described.)

This has been an issue brought up in dedicated Denon/Marantz receiver forums many times. On older Denon receivers( like my 2805) they are output at preset levels under both auto and manual test tones. Just troubleshooting here. It might be the sub but it's more likely a receiver setting issue.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Good deal




Assuming you're using your newer Denon receiver that's incorrect. Manual test tones on the newer Denon's aren't output at a preset level. The Auto test tones are(which is what you actually might be in if as described.)

This has been an issue brought up in dedicated Denon/Marantz receiver forums many times. On older Denon receivers( like my 2805) they are output at preset levels under both auto and manual test tones. Just troubleshooting here. It might be the sub but it's more likely a receiver setting issue.

That's interesting. Mines actually a slightly older Onkyo (808). My pioneer and Yamaha are both the same way.
I'm curious to if that. Ew sub was doa? I think he said he ran audyssey?

 

[bradymartin]

when i play music in stereo mode, sub is active and plenty of bass
but when i played the same song in direct mode with sub inactive, there is definitely more deeper bass
those 280s put out a lot of bass. i dont need a sub for music.
still, i would have thought adding a sub into the mix would have been more bass than i wanted, instead of less bass than two towers only

not sure if stereo mode is decreasing the bass on the towers, or something else is going on

that test tone thing is still bothering me, i go through speaker setup, then levels, then start test tone.
but enough frustration for one day.

 

[roadwarrior]

That's interesting. Mines actually a slightly older Onkyo (808). My pioneer and Yamaha are both the same way.
I'm curious to if that. Ew sub was doa? I think he said he ran audyssey?

Yeah it's all very confusing. Some makes do it one way and others another way. He's saying he's getting bass from the sub in stereo but that it sound better to him in Direct mode with just his mains. Sounds like the sub levels need to get raised several dB under the manual speaker settings assuming his level offset after running Audyssey is under 0dB.

I kind of understand what he's referring to as I've run my mains without my subs for a couple of weeks breaking in my mains and when I enable my sub's again things sound a bit different but that's the stereo imaging of the mains set full range. I bet once he checks his sub level offset and bumps that up some things we'll sound better.

 

[roadwarrior]

when i play music in stereo mode, sub is active and plenty of bass
but when i played the same song in direct mode with sub inactive, there is definitely more deeper bass
those 280s put out a lot of bass. i dont need a sub for music.

Check your sub level offset under manual speaker settings. If it's a -4/-6dB or more(but not -12dB) then raise the sub levels several dB staying at or under 0dB. That should help.

still, i would have thought adding a sub into the mix would have been more bass than i wanted, instead of less bass than two towers only

Actually that's what the LFE track in movies is supposed to compensate for. It adds 10dB to that track to offset for the sum of the bass levels of the 3 front speakers. When listening to music there's no such track so bumping up the sub levels manually after running Audyssey is recommended. At lower listening levels some use Dynamic EQ as well but results are mixed from users.

not sure if stereo mode is decreasing the bass on the towers, or something else is going on

Shouldn't be. You've got some big drivers in those towers( I own some Klipsch's as well) but my money's on something else going on.

that test tone thing is still bothering me, i go through speaker setup, then levels, then start test tone.
but enough frustration for one day.

Yep, best to go do something else and come back at it at a later date. Enjoy your 4th and I'm sure you'll get things figured out.

 

[bradymartin]

well i remember raising everything up by 5db after running audyssey. so not sure why the test zone for the sub is so low. during audyssey setup the sub tones was loud like the other speakers.

i think ill just start over and rerun audyssey