Audioholics: please tell me if I’m crazy (for considering a subwoofer purchase)

[Henry Howards]

Every sub Rythmik makes has a servo.
I really cannot comment on the L12. It is a relatively new offering.

It would be my hunch that the series of sealed subwoofers made by Rythmik would have a "familial" resemblance in their sound and performance, though of course the lower-priced subs in the line wouldn't achieve the same depth and power as the more expensive models.

I have never heard the F12 either, but it has been around for a long time and has a legacy as a very tight sub.

There seem to be several differences between the F12 and the L12, including the price! But I trust that Brian Ding has designed and built the L12 with the same integrity that he has applied to the other subs in the Rythmik product line.

I would have bought a pair of the F12's instead of the E15HP's except I planned to use them for HT and figured the 15" size would be useful, and I felt very safe buying the same sub that Jim Wilson bought after comparing them directly (in the same room at the same time) to the SVS SB13 Ultra. For music the F12 have a stellar reputation and are a popular choice.

Because my primary interest is music, rather than HT, it may ultimately make more sense for me to buy two 12" subs rather than one 15" sub. The L12s are $1,018/pair, while a couple of F12s sell for $1,706, nearly $700 more. I'd probably prefer to spend closer to $1,000 for my subwoofer purchase. I'm still mulling over my options...

 

[KEW]

It would be my hunch that the series of sealed subwoofers made by Rythmik would have a "familial" resemblance in their sound and performance, though of course the lower-priced subs in the line wouldn't achieve the same depth and power as the more expensive models. There seem to be several differences between the F12 and the L12, including the price! But I trust that Brian Ding has designed and built the L12 with the same integrity that he has applied to the other subs in the Rythmik product line. Because my primary interest is music, rather than HT, it may ultimately make more sense for me to buy two 12" subs rather than one 15" sub. The L12s are $1,018/pair, while a couple of F12s sell for $1,706, nearly $700 more. I'd probably prefer to spend closer to $1,000 for my subwoofer purchase. I'm still mulling over my options...

I suspect you are right, but would encourage you to contact Rythmik and see what they say about L12 vs F12, etc. Also do the same with PSA, SVS, or anyone else you are considering. Their support is good enough that it is a shame to not take full advantage of it. Rythmik used to be a little challenging when Brian Ding (the owner/designer) was answering the phone because of his accent, but Enrico has been there for a couple of years and knows what their products are about. In many ways the CS from these ID companies exceeds any other business model. ID sub makers know that they need to be ready to provide intelligent answers to maintain their reputation on forums like this. If they were giving you a "BestBuy salesman" response they would get called out in a heartbeat.

 

[Henry Howards]

I suspect you are right, but would encourage you to contact Rythmik and see what they say about L12 vs F12, etc. Also do the same with PSA, SVS, or anyone else you are considering. In many ways the Customer Service from these Internet Direct companies exceeds any other business model. ID sub makers know that they need to be ready to provide intelligent answers to maintain their reputation on forums like this.

Thanks for the suggestion. It's good to know that the companies building these subwoofers are dedicated to providing knowledgeable and straightforward information about the products they produce (rather than the cluelessness and hyperbole that is frequently encountered at the big box retailers). At this stage I'm still trying to educate myself so that I won't waste their time asking dumb questions...!

 

[KEW]

Thanks for the suggestion. It's good to know that the companies building these subwoofers are dedicated to providing knowledgeable and straightforward information about the products they produce (rather than the cluelessness and hyperbole that is frequently encountered at the big box retailers). At this stage I'm still trying to educate myself so that I won't waste their time asking dumb questions...!

LOL, but they probably have the very best answers to "dumb" questions! They get calls from every level of knowledge and I'm betting, by now, they have answered any question you could ever think of and probably have some of the best examples or explanations to get someone in any situation from one knowledge level to the next.
I would also add that you came into this thread with more sophistication regarding what you are looking for than most people who come here with a "which sub" question. So your questions will not be on the low end of the curve (not that it should matter).
It might make sense to get them to suggest which model you should be looking at if you ended up buying their sub(s).

 

[Henry Howards]

It might make sense to get them to suggest which model you should be looking at if you ended up buying their sub(s).

That is an excellent idea. Their recommendations could definitely help me narrow my options down to the best subwoofer for my specific needs (and allow me to emerge from "analysis paralysis"...)

 

[KEW]

On the topic of ability to better control your sub:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/tempest-build.106100/page-3#post-1166246

Of course, you want a sub that works well in your room to start with, but I find this useful for taming the bass when it is recorded heavy.
Here is an example of what I would call overly heavy bass (unfortunately, there is also some distortion at the very start of the YouTube version). I don't know if they were going for a "club" sound or what, but otherwise, I enjoy Katy Perry's acoustic "jazz" version of "I kissed a girl"

 

[Henry Howards]

On the topic of ability to better control your sub:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/tempest-build.106100/page-3#post-1166246

Of course, you want a sub that works well in your room to start with, but I find this useful for taming the bass when it is recorded heavy.

Thanks for that link -- I will read that thread carefully to discover what I can learn about subwoofer / bass management for my room.

Believe it or not, I have several Classical Music CDs recorded in London studios where it wasn't possible to keep the invasive low-frequency rumble of urban traffic from becoming a permanent part of the performance. This is especially evident during quiet passages of music, when the thunder of large trucks can often be heard unmistakably as they accelerate in first gear after being stopped at a nearby traffic light on a street outside the studio. This might actually be the deepest bass I am likely to encounter anywhere in my CD collection, and though it makes me smile when I hear it due to its accidental (and whimsical) appearance on a recording, it is probably a good example of heavy bass emanating from a subwoofer that might need to be tamed...

 

[KEW]

Thanks for that link -- I will read that thread carefully to discover what I can learn about subwoofer / bass management for my room.

Believe it or not, I have several Classical Music CDs recorded in London studios where it wasn't possible to keep the invasive low-frequency rumble of urban traffic from becoming a permanent part of the performance. This is especially evident during quiet passages of music, when the thunder of large trucks can often be heard unmistakably as they accelerate in first gear after being stopped at a nearby traffic light on a street outside the studio. This might actually be the deepest bass I am likely to encounter anywhere in my CD collection, and though it makes me smile when I hear it due to its accidental (and whimsical) appearance on a recording, it is probably a good example of heavy bass emanating from a subwoofer that might need to be tamed...

Eric Clapton's Unplugged album has a couple of songs where Mr. Clapton is tapping his foot on the stage. I don't know what happened, but it sounds like the microphone was laying on the stage floor and the floor has a low resonant frequency - it comes across heavy!
I suspect, since this is an acoustic album with no instrument below 40Hz (I don't remember the piano being played in its lowest notes), the recording engineer used standard monitors without a sub for mastering so he was unaware of it (or, at least, how strong it was). I'd imagine anyone mixing for Clapton would be pretty experienced, so he may have checked a few places with a sub, but not the ones where the foot tap is thunderous! This was Bray Studios in England 1992.

Edit: I see they remastered in 2013, so on order, I'm hopeful they "fixed" it!

 

[lovinthehd]

Eric Clapton's Unplugged album has a couple of songs where Mr. Clapton is tapping his foot on the stage. I don't know what happened, but it sounds like the microphone was laying on the stage floor and the floor has a low resonant frequency - it comes across heavy!
I suspect, since this is an acoustic album with no instrument below 40Hz (I don't remember the piano being played in its lowest notes), the recording engineer used standard monitors without a sub for mastering so he was unaware of it (or, at least, how strong it was). I'd imagine anyone mixing for Clapton would be pretty experienced, so he may have checked a few places with a sub, but not the ones where the foot tap is thunderous! This was Bray Studios in England 1992.

Edit: I see they remastered in 2013, so on order, I'm hopeful they "fixed" it!

Maybe it was intentional, I always thought it was. Might have mic'd it. It was an Unplugged show after all....

 

[Henry Howards]

Eric Clapton's Unplugged album has a couple of songs where Mr. Clapton is tapping his foot on the stage. I suspect, since this is an acoustic album with no instrument below 40Hz, the recording engineer used standard monitors without a subwoofer for mastering so he was unaware of it (or, at least, how strong it was). This was Bray Studios in England 1992.

The mastering for the Classical Music performances I own that were recorded in London studios might also have been done without utilizing a subwoofer, and it's possible the engineers scarcely even heard the deep bass of the truck traffic on their studio monitors. After all, when a large vehicle begins to move from a dead stop, it emits a rumble that starts to rise from a frequency of 1 Hz. It had never even occurred to me that mastering without a sub might be the reason this low-frequency noise is present on the final CD. [Then again, Classical Music generates very little profit for the record labels that sell it, and it could be that the tight recording budget just doesn't allow for engineering perfection. It's enough that the music is performed exquisitely, and I'm glad to say that almost always, it is...]

 

[lovinthehd]

The mastering for the Classical Music performances I own that were recorded in London studios might also have been done without utilizing a subwoofer, and it's possible the engineers scarcely even heard the deep bass of the truck traffic on their studio monitors. After all, when a large vehicle begins to move from a dead stop, it emits a rumble that starts to rise from a frequency of 1 Hz. It had never even occurred to me that mastering a recording of acoustical music without a sub being used in the process might be the reason this low-frequency noise is present on the final CD. [Then again, Classical Music generates very little profit for the record labels that sell it, and it could be that the tight recording budget just doesn't allow for engineering perfection. It's enough that the music is performed exquisitely, and I'm glad to say that almost always, it is...!]

You stirred an old memory! I got to sit at the mixing desk (just a guest, sitting with the engineer--think it was Andy Johns) in a London studio where Rod Stewart was working on a recording many years ago (this was late 79). Now that you mention it, that room was just off the street on a second floor IIRC (don't remember the name of the studios), remember being distracted by traffic sounds a coupla times and I could turn around in my chair to see ....doubt it was evident in the recording room, that was in a fairly soundproof room it seemed to me.

Think there's probably more than a few studios where street sounds bled into the music, though, real estate is expensive as is sound proofing. I believe the main studio used for a lot of old Motown recordings also have traffic evident in some tracks.

 

[shadyJ]

It used to be a standard practice for many sound engineers to just apply a 20 Hz high-pass filter to get right of all of the rumble that creep into recordings. It isn't that it could be heard (their speakers were mostly not able to reproduce frequencies that low back in the day), but it would cause driver movement where none was needed, especially in a frequency range that was thought not to be audible. It is usually a good idea to filter all this stuff out, and there isn't a good reason not to do it for the sound mixing of yesteryear.

Hearing stuff like slight traffic noises wouldn't bother me. There are all sorts of unintentional noises that get into these recordings that can be heard if you know what to listen for.

 

[j_garcia]

Some of those unintended sounds are fun. At the end of one Smith's song there's a sneeze right as the song trails off. Unintentional or not, it is there and I always thought it was funny.

On Dave Brubeck Concord on a Summer Night (live) you can hear the crickets in the background from the outdoor venue and I love that you can.

 

[Henry Howards]

This is veering rather far off-topic, but one of the Classical Music CDs I own that is a marvel for its quality of sound was recorded at Troy Savings Bank Music Hall in upstate New York. Owing to the fact that the concert hall is actually on the uppermost 6th floor of a 19th-century bank building in the small town of Troy, its acoustics are superb and it is blissfully isolated from outside noise. No traffic rumble on that recording (though as shadyJ has said, it doesn't really bother me -- I just concentrate on the musical performance).

http://www.crlmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Music-Hall-Troy-interior-to-stage.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/TroySavingsBankMusicHallRoof.JPG/1920px-TroySavingsBankMusicHallRoof.JPG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Savings_Bank_Music_Hall

 

[bricyboy]

Hey Henry,

Thank you for starting this thread and continuing to post, your questions and learning have been an education to me too.

The only thing I wanted to add is that the ID companies are very helpful with helping to find the best sub configuration. Several have gone back and forth with me for a month and I still haven't purchased anything yet (I stalk their outlets constantly), but they've helped me navigate what would fit my home.

Anyway, I look forward to more comments and educational moments from this thread.