Brexit

[Ponzio]

if u really wanna go off track I'm reading this great article about our buddies the Ibn Saud's
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/a-30-year-old-saudi-prince-could-jump-start-the-kingdom--or-drive-it-off-a-cliff/2016/06/28/ce669a3e-3c69-11e6-a66f-aa6c1883b6b1_story.html?wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1

 

[Ponzio]

Please revisit post 114.

With all due respect, no, I wasn't. It was local. They specifically said Jersey City. That's why it stuck in my head.

I saw it once on the 11th. Never again.

The press answers to a higher authority.

Okie Dokie.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'll be looking forward to TLS's take on Boris bowing out.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'll be looking forward to TLS's take on Boris bowing out.

Well, Conservative party leadership contests have long had a history, of "The Night of the Long Knives." This one is no exception.

Boris can count. He counted and found he did not have the votes. The question now is who will he back? My money is that he will back Theresa May. So we will now be in the strange position of someone from the Remain camp most likely in charge of Leave.

By odd coincidence, or otherwise, Angela Merkel and Theresa May have very similar backgrounds. They are both daughters of clergymen for a start.

This issue of succession could get solved very quickly, as there is the suggestion that Theresa May could win overwhelmingly on the first ballot.

Meanwhile open and worsening warfare continues in the Labor camp which is now descending into total farce.

The trade unions have backed Jeremy Corbyn as have the motley association of hard fascist left wing agitators. As I have always said, and you have not believed me, that fascism is a construct of the left and NOT the right. These events are just confirming that.

This left leaning lot among many other vices have a strong anti Semitic under tow. In fact just today Jeremy Corbyn has equated Israel with ISIS. Some of his hard left supporters have made nasty threats against sitting MPs and their families including children. The police are involved.

We are may be entering new age of "enlightenment." It is possible we will have a female President and Vice President in the US, a female UK Prime Minister and of course Angela Merkel still the German Chancellor.

 

[shadyJ]

The trade unions have backed Jeremy Corbyn as have the motley association of hard fascist left wing agitators. As I have always said, and you have not believed me, that fascism is a construct of the left and NOT the right. These events are just confirming that.

This left leaning lot among many other vices have a strong anti Semitic under tow. In fact just today Jeremy Corbyn has equated Israel with ISIS. Some of his hard left supporters have made nasty threats against sitting MPs and their families including children.

This insanity again. I am not a spokesman for the left, but their opposition against Israel stems from anti-colonialism, not anti-semitism. Hilarious is the suggestion that the left is antisemitic in the face of the entirety of the history of right-wing politics, going back hundreds if not thousands of years. As for scary threats from leftists, are you going to argue that Jo Cox was murdered by secret Marxists? Fascism is product of right-wing politics. Gob-smacking that anyone who can tie their own shoes would say it is somehow leftist.

 

[Chu Gai]

What colonialism?

 

[shadyJ]

British Mandate of Palestine

 

[TLS Guy]

This insanity again. I am not a spokesman for the left, but their opposition against Israel stems from anti-colonialism, not anti-semitism. Hilarious is the suggestion that the left is antisemitic in the face of the entirety of the history of right-wing politics, going back hundreds if not thousands of years. As for scary threats from leftists, are you going to argue that Jo Cox was murdered by secret Marxists? Fascism is product of right-wing politics. Gob-smacking that anyone who can tie their own shoes would say it is somehow leftist.

Lets take your points one by one.

Anti Semitism has nothing whatever to do with colonialism. Past empire is certainly in no way an excuse for it. Your remarks are in line with a Jewish MP leaving a meeting led by Jeremy Corbyn today who left in tears after being attacked by a Momentum activist (a vile group and fascist in nature set up by Jeremy Corbyn). Jeremy Corbyn did nothing to intervene. The chief Rabbi of the UK and a former chief Rabbi have declared that the UK Labor party is no longer a safe space for Jews. Historically Jews have been plentiful and well represented in the Labor party.

Next the Jo Cox was tragically murdered by a mentally ill individual and not a fascist. He had sought mental health treatment prior to committing this heinous act. He could not be given an appointment in a timely manner. Unfortunately you can never underestimate the potential of the mentally ill to create mayhem.

The last point is that I am far from the only person to be pointing out of late that calling fascists right wing is one of the lefts most blatant attempts at rewriting of history. The most blatant example was Soviet fascism.

It is not only my view, but the view of many, that both Momentum and Unite are essentially fascist and they are a construct of the hard left and now closely tied to the Labor party and very source of Jeremy Corbyn's power and the reason he can not be unseated.

If you look at European fascism, these people who carry out persecution of ethnic groups and religions are basically far to the left on social and economic policy. I would also site the Greek Golden Dawn in this category. Although they are thugs and want to do harm to specific ethnic groups, and all other aspects they are far left, which fits the pattern. It is grossly misleading to label these groups as parties of the right.

I'm not backing down on this one, and nor are a lot of others on this, especially in the UK, where this has been discussed on op ed pieces in recent years, including editorials in major news papers making the same point I am making.

 

[shadyJ]

Opposition is Zionism and opposition to Israel's treatment of Palestinians is not the same thing as antisemitism, and I think you are deliberately conflating these issues as a smear to leftist causes.

The guy who killed Jo Cox, Thomas Mair, was heard yelling "Britain First" as he attacked her. He had attended white supremacist rallies before then. Yes, he had a history of mental illness, but extreme right-wing leanings and mental illness historically have an awful lot of overlap in a venn diagram.

I don't know who taught you history or what papers you read, but calling fascism a product of the left is crazy town. Soviet 'fascism'? Someone should have told Hitler that before he invaded the USSR, it would have saved him an awful lot of trouble. I am not going to try to explain to you what constitutes Fascism or what its ideological roots are, there are plenty of good resources for that, and if I pointed you to them, I have no doubt you would wave them away as liberal propaganda. And no, there are not plenty of others who adhere to the view that Fascism is a product of the Left, even in conservative circles. You might be able to cite an editorial written by a hard-right kook, but I would cite every single credible scholar on the matter; historians, sociologists, political scientists- any serious person who has ever had to study the subject.

 

[Rickster71]

Apparently it's a race to prove incompetence... Not sure if the EU or the USA Government is winning?
EDIT: Sorry about print size. Not sure how it went off the rails.

EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration
Brussels bureaucrats were ridiculed yesterday after banning drink manufacturers from claiming that water can prevent dehydration.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html

EU officials concluded that, following a three-year investigation, there was no evidence to prove the previously undisputed fact.

Producers of bottled water are now forbidden by law from making the claim and will face a two-year jail sentence if they defy the edict, which comes into force in the UK next month.

MEP Roger Helmer said: “This is stupidity writ large.
“The euro is burning, the EU is falling apart and yet here they are: highly-paid, highly-pensioned officials worrying about the obvious qualities of water and trying to deny us the right to say what is patently true.

“If ever there were an episode which demonstrates the folly of the great European project then this is it.”

EU regulations, which aim to uphold food standards across member states, are frequently criticized.

Rules banning bent bananas and curved cucumbers were scrapped in 2008 after causing international ridicule.

 

[herbu]

And no, there are not plenty of others who adhere to the view that Fascism is a product of the Left, even in conservative circles.

Sorry, but yes there are.
Here is a definition of fascism from wikipedia:

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[7] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[7] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.

This definition fits what conservatives see as the liberal agenda and strategy today... both here and, I suspect, the UK.

 

[highfigh]

The point I'm trying to make is that we're 're not dealing with normal immigrants who come here to escape persecution and wars and become part of the American fabric. Rather we're importing a different breed of people who don't follow the same moral code as the rest of the world, say civilized people, and refuse to assimilate into our society but are slowly forcing us to accept their moral code, with the end result to make us live by it. Gotta love political correctness..

I'm not arguing- my grandfather came to the US without knowing any English. Other than having a still, he obeyed the laws and when the kids spoke German, he insisted "This is America- we speak English!". Well, unless he and my grandmother didn't want the kids to know what they were taking about and then, it was German.

As far as I'm concerned, well, let's just say that I'm 180 degrees from what's being allowed. Immigrants are fine, bad immigrants- not so much. A government denying that they're a problem is inexcusable.

 

[markw]

I'm not arguing- my grandfather came to the US without knowing any English. Other than having a still, he obeyed the laws and insisted "This is America- we speak English!".

As far as I'm concerned, well, let's just say that I'm 180 degrees from what's being allowed. Immigrants are fine, bad immigrants- not so much. A government denying that they're a problem is inexcusable.

Your grandfather was a wise and good man.

As for the other point, let me put it this way. Suppose you had a big bowl of M&Ms. Suppose again that 2% were poison and indistinguishable from the others Would you still reach in and grab a handful?

 

[Steve81]

Suppose you had a big bowl of M&Ms. Suppose again that 2% were poison and indistinguishable from the others Would you still reach in and grab a handful?

There are (at least) a couple problems with this statement.

1. It assumes that it's not possible to adequately vet any of the refugees seeking asylum. Can we properly vet everyone? Probably not. Is it feasible to verify the identities, affiliations, etc. of some of these people? Surely.

2. Should that apply to all people fleeing war zones/parts of the world unfriendly to the US? ISIS doesn't exactly have a lock on the concept of a sleeper cell after all. One wonders how different the US and the world might be if we always followed that strategy.

3. To put in in blunt terms, was this a particularly noble moment in US history?

 

[markw]

Well Steve, looking at Minneapolis, the Boston Bombers and others like that, it sure seems that we're letting quite a few poison M&Ms in. IMNSHO, we shouldn't be taking ANY new ones in unless we can be 100% sure they are safe. OUR safety should come first.

As for that ship, that was wrong but I think you'll find that more people died on 9/11

And, yeah. We need more of this, don't we?

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Jersey-City-Schools-Meeting-Proposal-Close-Muslim-Holiday-September-24-328135831.html

Been to Dearborn lately? How about Minneapolis?

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/18/387302748/minneapolis-st-paul-remains-a-focus-of-jihadi-recruiting


Ever heard of Medina?

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/medina.html

Now, I have nothing against immigrants. Our ancestors were immigrants. Many came over in droves for whatever reason. But, unlike muslims, they ALL blended in to our culture. Within a generation or so they were mainstream Americans.

But, no other group has ever tried to subvert our way of life like muslims have. Everything we do "offends" them and, like sheep to the slaughter, the politically correct ninnies bend over backwards to accommodate them.

It's happening now, even as we speak. We're well into stage 2.

https://civilusdefendus.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/4-stages-of-islamic-conquest/

Let's get this straight. I have no problem with islam as a religion. Where I DO have a problem is where it becomes a weapon of cultural takeover. The problem is that nobody can tell where one ends and the other takes over. Anyone that claims to be a true American is able to see where this his heading and wants to preserve this country for our grandkids and great-grandkids. Too many have fought and died to give us this country. I'm not ready to surrender this to barbarians.

 

[Steve81]

Well Steve, looking at Minneapolis, the Boston Bombers and others like that, it sure seems that we're letting quite a few poison M&Ms in. IMNSHO, we shouldn't be taking ANY new ones in unless we can be 100% sure they are safe. OUR safety should come first.

For starters, you might consider that humans aren't M&M's that can simply be divided into "safe" and "poison". They're people, with all the good, ill, and complexity that comes with it. To put it another way: how many new radicals and sympathizers do we create within our own borders if we enacted your vision? How many allies do we lose? Should we try to ban Islam within US borders, i.e. convert or get deported, make it a crime for people to convert to Islam, etc?

As for that ship, that was wrong but I think you'll find that more people died on 9/11

Unfortunately, that ship was merely the culmination of the situation. Far more died because the US simply wasn't interested in taking in Jewish refugees. Antisemitism was hardly unique to Germany at the time.

And, yeah. We need more of this, don't we?
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Jersey-City-Schools-Meeting-Proposal-Close-Muslim-Holiday-September-24-328135831.html

Because Muslims are the only ones who could be accused of trying to bring religion into government? No Christians have ever tried to do that, right? Even today, the battle rages on with people like Kim Davis, Mississippi's religious freedom law that just got smacked down, etc.

Let's get this straight. I have no problem with islam as a religion. Where I DO have a problem is where it becomes a weapon of cultural takeover. The problem is that nobody can tell where one ends and the other takes over... I'm not ready to surrender this to barbarians.

Tone it down Mark. This is the first, and only warning.

 

[markw]

Sorry, Steve. I'll just stick to the facts.

The poison M&M's are an excellent analogy.

As for that ship you brought up the culmination of WHAT situation? It was feared that some might be Nazi agents. Not an unwise assumption given the political situation at that time. Besides, what 's this "far more" to which you refer? AFAICT, there were about 900 on that ship.

And, as for your bring up Christianity as an equivalent to islam, please show me some current examples of their honor killings, throwing gays off rooftops, and legal marriage of children.

I'm glad you brought up that freedom of religion law. If anything, it up.allowed one to follow their heart. So, it appears that the government is denying them their freedom of religion right there. They don't make something illegal, just not forcing individuals to go against their religion. ...just what islam wants to hear.

Yet, because they are "offended" by each and every thing, we have to change for them?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/12/muslims-demand-that-offensive-crosses-be-removed-from-catholic-university/

Stage two is well underway.

 

[Steve81]

Besides, what 's this "far more" to which you refer? AFAICT, there were about 900 on that ship.

It wasn't just that ship.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/17/what-americans-thought-of-jewish-refugees-on-the-eve-of-world-war-ii/

Fewer than 5 percent of Americans surveyed at the time believed that the United States should raise its immigration quotas or encourage political refugees fleeing fascist states in Europe — the vast majority of whom were Jewish — to voyage across the Atlantic. Two-thirds of the respondents agreed with the proposition that "we should try to keep them out."

But look at the next chart, also tweeted by @HistOpinion. Two-thirds of Americans polled by Gallup’s American Institute of Public Opinion in January 1939 — well after the events of Kristallnacht — said they would not take in 10,000 German Jewish refugee children.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-away-thousands-jewish-refugees-fearing-they-were-nazi-spies-180957324/?no-ist

These suspicions seeped into American immigration policy. In late 1938, American consulates were flooded with 125,000 applicants for visas, many coming from Germany and the annexed territories of Austria. But national quotas for German and Austrian immigrants had been set firmly at 27,000.

Immigration restrictions actually tightened as the refugee crisis worsened. Wartime measures demanded special scrutiny of anyone with relatives in Nazi territories—even relatives in concentration camps. At a press conference, President Roosevelt repeated the unproven claims from his advisers that some Jewish refugees had been coerced to spy for the Nazis. “Not all of them are voluntary spies,” Roosevelt said. “It is rather a horrible story, but in some of the other countries that refugees out of Germany have gone to, especially Jewish refugees, they found a number of definitely proven spies.”

There's plenty of literature out there if you look around.

And, as for your bring up Christianity as an equivalent to islam, please show me some current examples of their honor killings, throwing gays off rooftops, and legal marriage of children.

You mean things like this (Uganda being vast majority Christian). Or this (Brazil being vast majority Christian).

I'm glad you brought up that freedom of religion law. If anything, it up.allowed one to follow their heart. So, it appears that the government is denying them their freedom of religion right there. They don't make something illegal, just not forcing individuals to go against their religion.

Freedom of religion doesn't equate to freedom to discriminate any more than the freedom to commit honor killings, the freedom to hold slaves, etc.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is going a bit off the rails. The UK Immigration beef is not primarily about immigration of Muslims. It is about the legal Immigration if EU citizens, primarily from Eastern Europe, South Med and the Balkan states.

The problem is too many people overloading housing capacity, schools, the NHS and transport capacity. That is the issue that has to be brought under control whatever the EU has to say. That is what the next prime minister must deliver on.

 

[shadyJ]

This definition fits what conservatives see as the liberal agenda and strategy today... both here and, I suspect, the UK.

It looks to me like you are seeing the words 'strong government' and somehow seeing a liberal agenda. Yes, fascists prefer a strong centralized government, as do many liberals, but that is not at all the same thing. The purpose of a strong government is entirely different for the two camps, because their political philosophies are entirely different. Their approaches to governing are entirely different. Listening to you guys, it was as if the great political schisms of the 1930s which led to WW2 never happened.