M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
OK, imagine that you own a business and decided to hire a bunch of Somali Muslims. They do a good enough job to keep them as employees, but after they have worked for you for a while, they demand that you allow them to take five prayer breaks every day and the result of these breaks means that you need to stop production while they pray and then, because it's a manufacturing plant that uses injection molding and parts need to be heated for various reasons, it takes another 30-60 minutes to return to full speed, only to be required to stop again in a couple of hours (or less) to do it all over again. How would YOU deal with this? Material is wasted, time is wasted, the non-Muslims can't do their jobs. HOW would YOU deal with this?
Have you seen this?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/429274/colorado-muslims-fired-meat-plant-cargill

Several stories are represented. believe the one that makes the most sense to you

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic religions, so they all worship the same deity, each being mono-theistic. How is it that Muhammad is treated as if he's a god, with the act of creating images of him, speaking badly of him and other "offenses" to him punishable by death? If he's treated as a god, how can they resolve the issue of him only being a prophet and even then, the Q'uran says he's not going to Paradise/Heaven on Judgement Day? Even the Q'uran has the name of Jesus Christ far more that of Muhammad. Christ holds a higher place than Muhammad, yet Muslims believe that their interpretation of the writings is the only correct one and that the other religions have it wrong and then, to make it even more odd, they came along more than 600 years after Christ. Muhammad even went to the same mountain as Moses, where both saw the burning bush and were there for 40 days. One difference between Judaism and Islam is that Moses went to Mt Sinai and was given the Torah, but the people below are said to have heard God's voice, whereas Muhammed went up along and came back with his revelations without witnesses to back up his story.
Good question. The only reason I can find is that the religion is only an excuse for despotic military rulers to maintain total control by violence, fear, and intimidation

The Crusades were a response to the Muslims, African slavery was rampant because of the Barbary pirates (Muslim) and once again, we see that they want to spread their version of religion by force. I don't remember reading or hearing that the Jews forced anyone to convert (other than, "If you want to marry our daughter, you're gonna become a Jew" and "I tried to raise you to be a good boy and this is the thanks I get? Oy vey iz mir!") to their religion and the RC church is probably responsible for enough deaths as well, but this is the twenty-freaking-first century! Why do they need to act in ways that are so barbaric?
Did you know the US Marines are the direct result of fighting muslims on the Barbary coast? Even back then they agreed to and then broke treaties as they saw fit.

It's long, but it's a good rad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
OK, so let's say a Pole comes over and gets a job somewhere in the UK. I presume he does so either because such a job either doesn't exist in Poland or that it pays significantly better. Well his cost of living is higher in the UK, no? Do most people who migrate to the wealthier EU countries do so with the aim of living there or are they squirreling away their money to send back to their native country and only staying for a limited time and then moving back?

As an aside, I got curious as to what prostitution costs were. I was stunned when at more than one place I read that in Greece it was not unknown to obtain what I assume we're basic services for the cost of a sandwich! Imagine what you could get for a Big Mac, fries, and a coke!
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
so it's OK to celebrate Christmas & Hanukah in schools but not Ramadan? u dont see the double standard, never mind how it conflicts with the Constitution/Bill of Rights?

I had a hard time believing that a sign like the one u posted would be allowed to stand or not be reported upon by the local/national press and i was right. debunked by both Snopes and various other sites.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/islamicagenda.asp
https://www.truthorfiction.com/dearborn-sign/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/24/facebook-posts/viral-meme-says-islamic-group-posted-threat-kill-a/

there's more proof debunking this pic but I guess if one buys into their own nativism nothing will convince u otherwise.
note, I left open the possibility it might be a set up. What did Snopes say about that lady at the school board meeting in Jersey City?

As for them celebrating Ramadan, nobody is stopping them from celerating it. But, no other religion lets it affect others lives. Jews don't expect special treatment for their holidays. Neither do Hindus, Buddhists or anyone else.?

As for Christmas, the only day Christians ask for is Christmas. Since this country was founded on Judeo Christian principles, we deserve it. It's OUR country. Do muslim countries make special provisions for Christians to celebrate their holidays? Hell, in most muslim countries today it's a crime.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/santa-not-welcome-ten-countries-that-banned-christmas-1534567

If they want to celebrate Ramadan, let 'em go to a muslim country. What makes them more special than the other religions?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
As for Christmas, the only day Christians ask for is Christmas. Since this country was founded on Judeo Christian principles, we deserve it. It's OUR country.
Well, not in my mind, Mark. As a person who wants freedom from religion, I find your statement offensive. IMO, we would be a lot better off if no one thought their faith made this their country. Maybe some day.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, not in my mind, Mark. As a person who wants freedom from religion, I find your statement offensive. IMO, we would be a lot better off if no one thought their faith made this their country. Maybe some day.
I've given up being politically correct. If you're offended, so be it.

So, how does the fact that Christians celebrate Christmas affect you? Is one of your favorite stores closed?

Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. You're an intelligent man, Irv. I'm surprised you tried to pull that one.

The Ten Commandments were one of the tenants of this country which, by the way, WAS formed on Judeo Christian principles. It's on our money. The Ten Commandments are all over Washington.

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/law/10_commandments-did_you_know.htm
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I've given up being politically correct. If you're offended, so be it.
This isn't a matter of being politically correct, Mark, it's a matter of claiming something that has no law behind it. There's nothing in the Constitution that says this is a Christian country. Thank God. ;-)

So, how does the fact that Christians celebrate Christmas affect you? Is one of your favorite stores closed?
It doesn't offend me at all. Some of the most beautiful music ever written is Christmas music. Amazon is always open.

Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. You're an intelligent man, Irv. I'm surprised you tried to pull that one.
You are absolutely correct, though the case is debatable at least for putting up with it in government. Do you know that in Arkansas, I'm not allowed to serve on a jury? Of course, I'm not dumb enough to live in a state that discriminates against me in its constitution. That "under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance was added in the 50s. (I just don't say it.) The In God We Trust thing on our money does not make the US a Christian country.

Frankly, Mark, from my vantage point you just crossed the line with that remark I didn't like, to sounding a lot like the people you're complaining about, minus the threats of violence, of course.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Did you read that link I provided?
I did, and I knew most of that stuff. Americans also used to be slave holders and practice segregation, so I always hold hope that bad ideas, like imposing one group's deity beliefs on everyone else, will be overcome.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
It's been a long, long time since I've read the Federalist papers and the discussions and analysis of them. My understanding or remembrance is that the US is not r was not founded as a Christian nation. The dominant religious persuasion at that time was Christianity and more specifically Protestant and its variants. A number of the founding fathers in all likelihood fell under the umbrella of agnostics or even atheists. That's not to say they despised religion. Quite the contrary as they found it useful in providing a moral compass for the people. So then, what are we to make when the term God is used? If you're religious, God might well mean the big cheese in the sky. But what did God mean to the founding fathers? For many, God was nature and reason. It's like when people say Einstein believed in God because he stated 'God does not play dice with the universe.' Einstein was an atheist and his use of the term God was his way of saying nature. Just a bit more dramatic.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I did, and I knew most of that stuff. Americans also used to be slave holders and practice segregation, so I always hold hope that bad ideas, like imposing one group's deity beliefs on everyone else, will be overcome.
Irv, that's got to be the most ludicrous thing I think I've read here.

Karl Marx, Pol Pot, Nicolae Ceaușescu and others at various times in the last century all banned religion and look at their contributions to the world. ...and Godless cavemen used to bonk their chosen mate over the head and drag them to their caves. ;)

...and you're worried that this country follows tenants that came from the Judeo Christian belief system? Things like don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, don't obey your parents offend you?

What else you have in mind? Where is it laid out for all to see? ...or do you prefer total anarchy?
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Irv, that's got to be the most ludicrous thing I think I've read here.

Karl Marx, Pol Pot, Nicolae Ceaușescu and others at various times in the last century all banned religion and look at their contributions to the world. ...and Godless cavemen used to bonk their chosen mate over the head and drag them to their caves. ;)

...and you're worried that this country follows tenants that came from the Judeo Christian belief system? Things like don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, don't obey your parents offend you?

What else you have in mind? Where is it laid out for all to see? ...or do you prefer total anarchy?
Marx never banned anything.

Admonishments against theft, murder, and disobedience to parents aren't exactly specific to judeo-christianity. Those are pretty much universal values in any functioning society. The less humanistic practices of judeo-christianity are what is problematic. Any country whose laws and governance strictly followed the moral codes as literally written in the bible would be a nightmare.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Marx never banned anything.
True, I stand corrected. He didn't ban it officially but he certainly had major problems with it.

'In the Communist Manifesto , Marx suggests that religion, like morality and philosophy, must be eliminated if we are to achieve a new political and economic existence. "Communism," he and Engels write, "abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on new basis" (1968:52). The reason for this is the historical evidence that regardless of previous changes in the productive systems, religion has always supported the maintenance of the legitimacy of the exploiter and exploited. Thus, to create a truly free society, religion as a tie to the past must be eliminated.'

Source: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Marx.htm

Admonishments against theft, murder, and disobedience to parents aren't exactly specific to judeo-christianity. Those are pretty much universal values in any functioning society. The less humanistic practices of judeo-christianity are what is problematic. Any country whose laws and governance strictly followed the moral codes as literally written in the bible would be a nightmare.
Again, what better statement of national statement of national values does one offer to replace it in this country? Obviously, the builders, and those who commissioned and designed our
national buildings, thought they adequately stated ours. As for those "less humanistic practices" you mention, I think they are pretty much buried in the past here, and were at the inception of this country. .. unlike Islam.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
OK, so let's say a Pole comes over and gets a job somewhere in the UK. I presume he does so either because such a job either doesn't exist in Poland or that it pays significantly better. Well his cost of living is higher in the UK, no? Do most people who migrate to the wealthier EU countries do so with the aim of living there or are they squirreling away their money to send back to their native country and only staying for a limited time and then moving back?

As an aside, I got curious as to what prostitution costs were. I was stunned when at more than one place I read that in Greece it was not unknown to obtain what I assume we're basic services for the cost of a sandwich! Imagine what you could get for a Big Mac, fries, and a coke!
The answer to your question is both.

However things are very miserable for people, especially in South Med, Greece and Portugal in particular. The old Communist block is also a region in a lot of difficulty.

I can only tell you what I know, and I don't live in Europe any more. Since my father died two and a half years ago, my mother has had alive on Polish career. Her husband is an engineer and works in Germany. She has a son who is chair of a physics department a US university.

So in order to have a decent economic base, especially for retirement, this couple live apart most of the time. This couple get together in Poland for about two months a year, and a substitute Polish career comes and takes over. My mother's regular career is in Poland right now. She spends virtually nothing on herself in the UK and virtually all he salary goes back to Poland.

There is not to say there is no work in Poland, and the Polish premier has been castigating the EU for allowing free movement as he claims Poland is loosing too many skilled individuals.

Since the EU is not a transfer union, it pushes states into what economists call the deflationary trap. Some EU states have seen negative interest rates.

I and many other believe the EU is the biggest force keeping interest rates so low. This is a problem for retirees, although it makes buying a house cheaper. Concerning this latter, in the US fixed rate mortgages are the rule, but elsewhere these mortgages are virtually unknown. For retirement portfolios it makes them far too dependent on volatile stock market investments.

The bigger downside is that it makes it far too easy for governments and others to borrow money. Interest rates will eventually rise and the deflationary trap will shut. The danger then is large scale defaults and right offs with likely severe consequences.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Irv, that's got to be the most ludicrous thing I think I've read here.

Karl Marx, Pol Pot, Nicolae Ceaușescu and others at various times in the last century all banned religion and look at their contributions to the world. ...and Godless cavemen used to bonk their chosen mate over the head and drag them to their caves. ;)

...and you're worried that this country follows tenants that came from the Judeo Christian belief system? Things like don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, don't obey your parents offend you?

What else you have in mind? Where is it laid out for all to see? ...or do you prefer total anarchy?
Mark, I didn't mention banning anything. I said I looked forward to a day when one group could not impose their deity or mythology on another, or everyone else. That list from your link a few posts back contained excellent examples of how people like me have to put up with everyone else's mythology when dealing with the government or in public schools. (In 5th grade I got in trouble for refusing to put ten cents towards the class Christmas tree fund. True story.) I'm a defender of people being able to practice any religion they want, including no religion at all, and I'm just tired of the majority thinking in the US that their particular brand of imposing their religion on everyone else via the government and schools is just fine. Don't twist my opinion into anything else.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It's been a long, long time since I've read the Federalist papers and the discussions and analysis of them. My understanding or remembrance is that the US is not r was not founded as a Christian nation. The dominant religious persuasion at that time was Christianity and more specifically Protestant and its variants. A number of the founding fathers in all likelihood fell under the umbrella of agnostics or even atheists. That's not to say they despised religion. Quite the contrary as they found it useful in providing a moral compass for the people. So then, what are we to make when the term God is used? If you're religious, God might well mean the big cheese in the sky. But what did God mean to the founding fathers? For many, God was nature and reason. It's like when people say Einstein believed in God because he stated 'God does not play dice with the universe.' Einstein was an atheist and his use of the term God was his way of saying nature. Just a bit more dramatic.
No the US was not founded as a Christian nation. However it was founded in an atmosphere of fierce religiosity.

To understand its roots you have to go back to the reformation in Europe, and particularly Henry VIII and his first divorce. He broke with Rome and made himself head of the protestant church in England. This persists today as the Church of England is still the established church with the Queen at its head.

The religious intolerance and violence was high on all sides with atrocities by protestants under Henry VIII, and by catholic Mary Tudor and then again by protestants under Elizabeth I. All of this strife was a factor in the founding of the New England States.

All of this religious strife culminated in the British Civil War.

Charles 1 was beheaded in 1648, and after disagreements with parliament Oliver Cromwell became in many ways a brutal military dictator. He refused the throne. He and his followers were of fiercely puritanical bent. They were brutal in Ireland and destructive to art work and organs in cathedrals and churches. This scar remains in that the UK has literally only a handful of organs prior to Cromwell.

Oliver Cromwell appointed his son Richard, to succeed him as the "Great Protector" on his death bed in 1660. Richard was inept and Charles the II returned from exile in France with his catholic wife. Charles II was likely catholic in secret and almost certainly homosexual. He had no children Thus the Restoration and some degree of tolerance accepted.

This set the scene in America for what became known as the Restoration Colonies.

One thing that Charles II inherited was the war with Holland. As part of this Dutch New Amsterdam became New York after a British victory.

Quakers not popular in England established themselves in Pennsylvania and Delaware especially.

The Carolinas were founded largely by slave owners from Barbados. This was the foundation of slavery in America.

Anyhow those who perceived themselves as miss fits or persecuted for their religious believes came to America in droves. There was fierce debate and strange religious ideas of all manner of description all largely of a Christian bent.

Religious strife continued in England. James II a catholic succeeded Charles 11. James abdicated fled to France and though the Crown Jewels in the Thames on his way out. Parliament sent for William of the Dutch House of Orange and installed him King. He was fiercely protestant and there was more brutality in Ireland. This legacy continues to this day. This is why the protestants of Northern Ireland, call themselves "Orange Men." To this day they still fly the flag of the Dutch House of Orange in parades. This is the proverbial "Red Rag to a Bull" as far as the Catholics are concerned.

This all existed up to, through, and after the American War of Independence. The population and especially the founding fathers were either the descendants of Oliver Cromwell's men or of those who had suffered mightily under them. They were well aware of the disaster of imposing religious belief especially by the state. This is how and why they were so concerned the State and government not sanction ANY religion. It was not that there were unbelievers, but that they believed fervently that the state, and therefore government, putting into law and practice any sanctioning or prohibition of any religious belief was are recipe for violence and civil war. It is my contention the long shadow of Oliver Cromwell and Puritan England loomed large in their thoughts and writings.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Have you seen this?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/429274/colorado-muslims-fired-meat-plant-cargill

Several stories are represented. believe the one that makes the most sense to you

Good question. The only reason I can find is that the religion is only an excuse for despotic military rulers to maintain total control by violence, fear, and intimidation

Did you know the US Marines are the direct result of fighting muslims on the Barbary coast? Even back then they agreed to and then broke treaties as they saw fit.

It's long, but it's a good read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
Here's an article about the Wisconsin manufacturer- the two breaks/day policy had been in place before the Muslims came and they were accommodated but they demanded extra breaks.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/ariens-co-fires-seven-muslim-employees-over-unscheduled-prayer-breaks-b99663936z1-367535761.html

Re: your comment "...only an excuse for despotic military rulers to maintain total control by violence, fear, and intimidation", that sounds very similar to the RC in early/medieval times, or a scene from Monty Python's 'Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition' skit.

Yes, I did know that the Marines came about because of the pirates and it's the reference to Tripoli in the Marine Hymm- 'From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli'. Jefferson is said to have kept a copy of the Qur'an at his bedside.

Here's an article about Minnesota Representative Keith Ellison (D), swearing his oath of office on the copy of the Qur'an that had been owned by Jefferson, but he attributes Jefferson having it because “A visionary like Thomas Jefferson was not afraid of a different belief system. This just shows that religious tolerance is the bedrock of our country, and religious differences are nothing to be afraid of.”.

http://religionandpolitics.org/2014/04/09/thomas-jeffersons-quran/

I don't know how accurate this link is, but it shows that Jefferson had bought his first copy when he was studying law, but he lost most of his books and papers in a fire, so he bought a second copy. it shows that he was conflicted during the conflicts with the Pirates, who demanded extremely high fees for passages in some areas of the seas. Some may think he was accepting of all religions, but it could have been a case of "Know thy enemy".

https://15minutehistory.org/2013/11/06/episode-30-thomas-jeffersons-quran/
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
OK, so let's say a Pole comes over and gets a job somewhere in the UK. I presume he does so either because such a job either doesn't exist in Poland or that it pays significantly better. Well his cost of living is higher in the UK, no? Do most people who migrate to the wealthier EU countries do so with the aim of living there or are they squirreling away their money to send back to their native country and only staying for a limited time and then moving back?

As an aside, I got curious as to what prostitution costs were. I was stunned when at more than one place I read that in Greece it was not unknown to obtain what I assume we're basic services for the cost of a sandwich! Imagine what you could get for a Big Mac, fries, and a coke!
WRT sending money back- ever been to a WalMart customer service department? They do money transfers for Western Union and on some days, the lines are very long. Ever seen the reports about the amount sent to Mexico and other Central American countries? Most of the articles I have read (the political slant of the news outlets were wide-ranging) indicated that for a long time, they were sending roughly $40B/year, although it may have decreased. Ten years of that and it would have paid for more than half of the Stimulus, IN CASH!

This link is from the Daily Mail, which is conservative, but I don't know how much they might want to skew their views, since they're UK-based. The number sent out of the country world-wide is around $120B/year and most of it will never come back. That's making a dent in the US economy and much of it isn't taxed. It would be interesting to see how much payroll is in cash and never taxed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271455/Revealed-How-immigrants-America-sending-120-BILLION-struggling-families-home.html
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
note, I left open the possibility it might be a set up. What did Snopes say about that lady at the school board meeting in Jersey City?

As for them celebrating Ramadan, nobody is stopping them from celerating it. But, no other religion lets it affect others lives. Jews don't expect special treatment for their holidays. Neither do Hindus, Buddhists or anyone else.?

As for Christmas, the only day Christians ask for is Christmas. Since this country was founded on Judeo Christian principles, we deserve it. It's OUR country. Do muslim countries make special provisions for Christians to celebrate their holidays? Hell, in most muslim countries today it's a crime.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/santa-not-welcome-ten-countries-that-banned-christmas-1534567

If they want to celebrate Ramadan, let 'em go to a muslim country. What makes them more special than the other religions?
I went to a high school that was over 25% Jewish and on the major holidays, the place was definitely less crowded. Who asks for time off or other accommodations depends on how devout they are- the more devout, the more they want. I know of places that allowed people to go to church or take time to pray at noon on Good Friday and one company owner wasn't even involved in a religion at the time (he and his wife used to go to a Unitarian church, but that came later).

The ideals of the founders of the country were from people who were involved in various religions and some, not at all. They just didn't want to have an official religion, or to force anyone to observe one, if they weren't inclined. It's not a Christian country, it just has more Christians than any other group. I can imagine why people who aren't Christian are offended when a President gets up on the dais and spouts their beliefs, shoving it in the faces of anyone who doesn't believe the same. I don't like politicians doing that and, while their beliefs definitely shape their thoughts and decisions, they're making it an official part of their policy-making.

However, it's foolish to accept everyone who comes across the borders, regardless of their origin. When it's becoming more likely that someone will come here and attack people because they don't agree with the lifestyle and personal/religious freedoms, it's time to be more careful in the process of screening them. If it was Christians, , Jews, Buddhists, Wicans, Taoists, worshipers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (it's now a real group) or any other group who was shooting, beheading and bombing, the same should apply.
 

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