Denon X4000 bum out of the box

[Acoustat]

It is this type of unfortunate horrid impression that leads to the myth that separates are inherently better sounding than AVR or Japanese brands like Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, etc.

I have compared AVR to the ultra high-end preamps of Mark Levinson, Krell, and Bryston using the same speakers and I couldn't tell any significant differences in Direct Mode.

I finally broke down and searched the CD ROM owners manual and found the PURE button on the remote.
I though just turning Audyssey off, would be the same…read on...

What does the denon do to the signal, exactly?

Great question, and since I do not write auditions please excuse my verbal interpretation of what I'm experiencing...

As TLS stated, as long as there is ample out voltage headroom, almost all modern preamps shouldn't be distinguished, at least not greatly. I've been using AVR'S as a preamp in my theater systems exclusively since 1999. Conversely I've used preamps only in my office and bedroom systems during the same time. Switching out speakers between the system yielded very little difference and I attributed that to room interactions. I couldn't tell a difference between a McIntosh C36 and a Yamaha 2095 .

Well I've had my system since 1988 and 89 so I've an intimate connection that makes it much easier to discern differences in nuances.
Having found the PURE button, Direct Mode, the muddiness of the sound stage GranteedEV, has been all but lifted.
1stly, turning off the Dynamic Volume increased the quality of the sound stage to…"doable" for HT, not music.
The Dynamic Vol. had so much mud it was like peanut butter in your ears.

Now I've auditioned back and forth again with similar SPL (my db meter is in the attic somewhere) and again, it's not
the volume I'm concerned with this garbage statement (which is greatly improved in Pure mode) but the quality of the
soundstage, the overall experience. With the NAD the soundstage is more wet, the Denon is more dry.
The Denon also seems to be experiencing some distortion in the mid highs range with multiple sound inputs
like brass, voice and symbols. They no longer appear to be separated as the NAD excels at, as compared.

Conclusion:
Gaining knowledge of the AVR and troubleshooting for a week has helped a lot with the separation
of AVR and preamp duties. A handheld manual would have been more helpful than the CD ROM
which I cannot operate in the same room as the AVR, it does not play on my BRP.
The overall sound for music as a preamp is acceptable, but the sounstage take on a different
appearance, one I liken to off axis or elongated out of proportion, even distorted but not as focused
and separated as the NAD 1700 preamp/tuner. The NAD focuses the soundstage with near perfection
for the listener for music, encouraging you to close your eyes and allowing the speakers to disappear
and relish the listener in a "higher octave". Also the NAD Monitor Series preamp having up to 15V
of output signal with the High Output RCA jacks, longer cable runs can be accommodated without issue
in an auditorium setting if desired, or anywhere the amplifier and preamp might be separated more than
a few feet.

In conclusion I would never do away with the NAD for music, nor use the Denon AVR for music other than
to play music whilst moving about the house/room in a non-discerning atmosphere. Should I keep the Denon
it will be used specifically for HT situations as it is designed. However, for the price paid, I can't help but shop
around for an AVR or pre-pro that would have Audyssey in a discontinued model that included LFE and L and R main pre outs.
I'm sure if I had multiple surrounds and dual sub woofers, the disappointment would be overturned.

 

[PENG]

I have compared AVR to the ultra high-end preamps of Mark Levinson, Krell, and Bryston using the same speakers and I couldn't tell any significant differences in Direct Mode.

Placebo does not work well on you, that's all..

 

[Acoustat]

Placebo does not work well on you, that's all..

So you think it's all in my head one sounds better than the other?
The last thing I want is more pieces of equipment out to be stolen
or another remote in a pile on the table, lost or keeping the battery companies
in business. So I wouldn't mind retiring the NAD, but cannot with the obvious difference.

That said, does anybody know why, I should not run my AVR out
to my NAD preamp in and keep it in the line up?

 

[Acoustat]

Safe to say not a bum unit

I think in part of what I'm experiencing with the soundstage using the Denon
being "distorted" and less focused, compared to my NAD, is old school for NAD
quoting NADs description on one of their AVRs
"Note: NAD uses Full Disclosure Power (FDP), the most demanding criterion for performance measurement. FDP specifies distortion under the most extreme conditions of low impedance loads and frequency extremes, rather than the simple and easy 1kHz @ 8 ohms test quoted by many of other manufactures. NAD uses this stricter performance criterion because it more closely matches the demands of real music and real loudspeakers. Maintaining specified distortion at 4/8Ω and at 20-20kHz is a much more difficult achievement. The benefit of NAD's Full Disclosure Power is the total elimination of audible distortion at any listening level. This provides pinpoint imaging and realism with music and movies alike."
NAD T 758 7.1-channel home theater receiver at Crutchfield.com

One thing I'm seeing with the NAD AVRs is rated power @ 4ohms
I am not finding Volts out, but if 4 ohms capable, thie 748 or 758 models may be a fine piece of equipment. The have Audyssey and set up mic
but no Bass Eq and not internet ready.

Some of the surrounds I've looked at are 4 ohms and not compatible with the Denon because of that.

I still wouldn't mind keeping the Denon and running the outs through my NAD
onto the amp if this is possible. I should call NAD tomorrow.
I should add, that in downloading NAD AVR manuals/specs that the only one so far
to list volts out was the $3K T-777 unit >4V
I'll be danged if I pay that much. None of the lesser models listed preamp specs
so there's a possibility, the others have similar out voltage.

Hell, if you have more voltage wouldn't that alone, lower the distortion?
Not having the volume at 83% as we did last night to watch the Black List on tv

 

[markw]

Now you're beginning to realize why some of us prefer separate music and HT systems.

Just or giggles, check out the link at the bottom of my page to see my stuff so you will get some idea from whence I speak.

 

[Acoustat]

Now you're beginning to realize why some of us prefer separate music and HT systems.

Just or giggles, check out the link at the bottom of my page to see my stuff so you will get some idea from whence I speak.

Looks like I've gained a NAD fan friend
That Rotel sounds like a really nice amp and match for the Magnepans.
As a young teen or earlier, I heard some Magnepans in Columbus, Oh.
at an audio HFi store.
I was immediately swooned into electrostatics. I was in awe.

Maybe I just need a high quality RCA switching device.
Mark, do you have a contact tele no. for NAD?
I've read more than one review on NAD stating how focused and separated
their sound field is today, and not on their site.

 

[markw]

For NAD, I deal with Tim Schwartz at Bristol Electronics in Ho-ho-kus*, New Jersey, (201)447-4299. He's an authorized NAD (among others) repair facility, and a Chevy Corvair nut.

As for your other problem, I have but two words to offer: Occam's razor.

*Yes, that really is the town name. I think it was named after a sneezing Indian.

 

[PENG]

So you think it's all in my head one sounds better than the other?

No, my comments refer to ADTG's post. I don't know what's in or not in your head.
Since you asked, I can tell you that like ADTG, I also owned 3 separate system, 2 are for 2 channel music only and none sound much difference than my no longer used AVR that include a 10 years old Denon AVR. Recently I pulled the old Denon out from the basement and AB it with my Halo A21/Marantz pre/KEF speakers system and found marginal difference, nothing like the difference I hear between speakers and source media.

So I don't understand why your X-4000 could sound so much worse than your NAD, and I am quite familiar with the NAD amps also. IMHO, something else is wrong, not Denon. If it is the Denon, then it could be your particular unit only.

 

[markw]

I also tend to think the Denon is on the fritz. I prefer my NAD for two channel but my Denon doesn't suck. Plus, it does the few multi-channel SACDS I own.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Placebo does not work well on you, that's all..

It doesn't matter to me if the preamp costs $20K and the amp costs $20K.

If I can't hear an actual audible IMPROVEMENT, then no, it doesn't work on me.

I am glad that I've had the opportunity to listen to many expensive gears.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you think it's all in my head one sounds better than the other?

We wouldn't presume to know anyone's exact system setup and experience.

The Denon X4000 could be defective. It seems that way. Or something else entirely. We couldn't possibly know for sure.

All we can tell you is that based on our own personal experiences after owning and listening to various expensive gears throughout the years, it is unlikely that a 100% functional Denon X4000 sounds inferior to any NAD or any other separate preamp.

But YMMV.

 

[Acoustat]

Thanx for the contact Mark.

As to the "other problem" I'm assuming the voltage/volume issue?
You're going to have to divulge a bit more on Occam's Razor.
Doing a quick search, I just feel it rests on the other side of the balance scales with placebo.

Has nobody else thought the distorted focal point of the Denon, could be caused by
the massive volume input required to come to this conclusion?

Does anybody know, why TLS said I should not, feed my AVR into my NAD preamp?
Reading the data sheet on the NAD preamp, the maximum input is 10V.
I called NAD in Canada this evening but was a bit too late to the show,
and had to leave a voice mail. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[PENG]

Does anybody know, why TLS said I should not, feed my AVR into my NAD preamp?
Reading the data sheet on the NAD preamp, the maximum input is 10V.
I called NAD in Canada this evening but was a bit too late to the show,
and had to leave a voice mail. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

No idea why he said that, you should be able to connect your X4000 preout or anlaog line out to the NAD preamp. Perhaps he meant you would not gain anything in terms of sound quality. In fact you will lose quality in theory though may not be audible, unless the Denon is defective.

 

[markw]

My guess would be that you will be feeding the preamp out from the Denon into a preamp input on the NAD, where the worst of both would be additive. IOW, you'll be going through two subsequent preamp stages

 

[PENG]

My guess would be that you will be feeding the preamp out from the Denon into a preamp input on the NAD, where the worst of both would be additive. IOW, you'll be going through two subsequent preamp stages

I think so too, TLSG knows his stuff, he knows from input and ouput impedance stand point their are no technical issues, but there will definitely be theoretical and physical degradation with the signal going through the extra stages and connections.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm sure I must have missed this somewhere, but since you love the sound of NAD, why not get a NAD pre-pro or NAD AVR with pre-out?

Just return the Denon since it's probably defective and buy a NAD.

 

[Acoustat]

...there will definitely be theoretical and physical degradation with the signal going through the extra stages and connections.

I could not agree more
the idea stems from the thought of an RCA switching device, and I trust the cables and the NAD to have better
components than most switching devices I would purchase in order to keep my amp
multi purposed. Having to use RCA from preamp to amp, I won't continually do hookups back n forth
as this puts too much wear and tear both on the cables and the jacks. So using the NAD combined with the Denon
was the lesser of the evils
I would run CD, cassette and phono into the NAD where music counts and music would bypass the Denon
Fair enough?
Also, would have 10V available from the NAD 1700 if I were to keep the Denon and run into the NAD.
Remember guys, I have a replacement Denon too. Two 4000's stacked with equal discrepancies.
Just off the tele with NAD, who agrees with me about the soundfield.
He did not know the volts out and should email me if he does find out.
He sees no issue using the Denon to feed the NAD preamp, but said I should use
line level out from the Denon...

I'm sure I must have missed this somewhere, but since you love the sound of NAD, why not get a NAD pre-pro or NAD AVR with pre-out?
Just return the Denon since it's probably defective and buy a NAD.

I've actually been looking at this one
T 758 A/V Surround Sound Receiver - NAD Electronics
Being capable of and rated at 4 ohms I have more options on my surrounds, and more faith in its' capabilities.
Nonetheless, it does lose a lot of bells and whistles, particularly the Bass Eq.
But I personally think bells and whistles are at minimum, an increased potential for down time.
At least if I say that, maybe I won't miss them with an NAD AVR.

I have to agree with NAD on this one...using a full blown line level out (wide open) into the NAD
would be desirable, but the Denons pre outs, pass through their volume.
As I've felt all along, if it passes through the volume, it is never "pure" and cannot be, or you guys
would not have suggested that I should not have more connections.

What I'm trying to say, is I think the components used to control volume in the Denon
may be in part, the issue with the sound field/stage plus, with such volume teetering on maxing out,
perhaps this is distorting the mid high frequencies and sound field.
I too, want to avoid as many breaks in the line as possible.
I'm working on it...

 

[Acoustat]

I would like to inject a big tidbit of info here. I said I found the "pure" mode button using the CD ROM finally, and the sound had become a lot better.
Turning off the Dynamic Volume also, increased the SPL. So besides the volume still not complete, the image of the sound was all that was left to critique.
If I did not have an excellent pair of speakers, this focus difference between the 2 units, probably would NOT be detectable. That's all

 

[PENG]

I would like to inject a big tidbit of info here. I said I found the "pure" mode button using the CD ROM finally, and the sound had become a lot better.
Turning off the Dynamic Volume also, increased the SPL. So besides the volume still not complete, the image of the sound was all that was left to critique.
If I did not have an excellent pair of speakers, this focus difference between the 2 units, probably would NOT be detectable. That's all

"Better", in many cases could be mostly a matter of the individual's preference. If it sound better to you than it is great news as you are the judge. I have plotted enough graphs to know that Audyssey XT32 does a decent job in flattening the frequency response in my room for my listening positions. I do like the sound better with XT32 enabled so I leave it on all the time but that's just me. I also leave dynamic EQ on all the time. If I felt it had degraded sound quality I would have turned it off too.

 

[PENG]

I would run CD, cassette and phono into the NAD where music counts and music would bypass the Denon
Fair enough?

Absolutely, you are doing it the right way, and yes, stick with line out from the Denon if you could. Using pre outs will complicate things.

Also, would have 10V available from the NAD 1700 if I were to keep the Denon and run into the NAD.

Not sure what you meant, if you are referring to the line output level, NAD typical specify it as "Maximum" so it does not mean it is higher than that of the Denon. I have seen at least one Denon tested at >18V maximum, with stated rated output of 1.2V.