Denon X4000 bum out of the box

[M Code]

No..
U posted the impedance of the amplifier outputs..
We need the impedance of the pre-outs..
Pls identify the AVR brand/model.
A major problem when using off-shore audio components with US-made components are matching their impedances and output levels....
The pre-out levels of the off-shore components tend to be of higher impedances and lower output voltages, whereas the US-made components are just the opposite low impedances and higher output voltages. Keep in mind that the majority of the US-made components are for high end and/or pro-audio applications so they know very well how to design these for proper system interfacing.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Acoustat]

running AVR as a pre amp

HDTV and Home Theater Podcast - Podcasts - Podcast #633: Use an AVR for Pre/Pro or a PreAmp?

Ok, so my situation is quite relative to the test in the above link, save for speaker requirements I'm sure.

After reading the above link, I'm sure there will be acoustical differences between the sound I had with NAD
and the sound I would get with the Denon.

My amp is higher in output and headroom than the tested NuForce MCA-20 (MSRP $1995)
but if the Denon tech guy thinks the AVR is screwed, and others believe the heat issue is screwed
I would like to get my hopes up, but am not holding my breath.
It was easier shopping for an AVR in my price range than a pre amp.
The Outlaw 975 does not upscale to 4K, but I'll wait till I test the new AVR before I go gun ho
shopping for a pre amp with .2 LFE, 3D and 4K.

 

[Acoustat]

No..
U posted the impedance of the amplifier outputs..
We need the impedance of the pre-outs..
Pls identify the AVR brand/model.

You're right, sorry about that. Unfortunately that spec is unattainable for all general purposes.
If the replacement AVR is the same, I'll try to remember to ask when I call.
In the meantime, this is all the specs I can find
http://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/us/Specification Sheet - English_AVR-X4000.pdf

The CD ROM that came with the unit may be "green" but it SUX! like a Hoover.

 

[M Code]

Incredible..
A 275 page operation guide but incomplete specifications..

Just my $0.02...

 

[laulau]

Just out of curiosity, how do you have the amps configured in the X4000 (Amp Assign & Main Pre-amps settings)?

 

[Acoustat]

Just out of curiosity, how do you have the amps configured in the X4000 (Amp Assign & Main Pre-amps settings)?

Denon had me select 9.1 and select pre amp Front or similar (may not be precisely worded correctly---pre-amp Front) but the pre out is
assigned to Front.

 

[Acoustat]

Dynamic Volume now OFF / fixed? maybe

External EQ would be last thing I'd do. First, check that the setup hasn't set any silly defaults... eg. Try Dynamic EQ = ON; Dynamic Vol = OFF.

The dynamic volume was in Med setting.
There's 4 settings Light Med Heavy and Off
As I selected the lesser, down to off beginning at Heavy
the volume increased significantly with each lower Dynamic Vol setting and became less muddy.
It was very very dull, muddy garbage as I hooked up my NAD it became
all the more apparent I was dealing with an inferior setting, and component
when using the Denon as compared.

Actually, I wouldn't recommend external EQ full stop. It's really been rendered surplus to requirements by Audyssey MultEQ and/or the manual EQ (if you prefer) available on the X4000. However, if you just enjoy the tweaking around with it, that's your prerogative.

I disagree 100% on the Eq suggestion, except it is a prerogative which I will continue to exercise
I just went through a lot of connection changes, bypassing Eq, bypassing Denon AVR (original setup)
and setting changes to the Dynamic Vol.

Once the Dynamic Vol was set to off, the Denons sound field
(using a CD - Sting, Ten Summoners Tales track one just for reference) became much more bright
more lively and "doable" from a critics point of view. The focus was off considerably however
compared to the NAD pre amp, sounding much less separated with less distinguisment than the superior NADs' sound field.
The difference I would compare to having a baseball in front of you (NAD) and a quickly formed ball of snow
with less tightness and perfection overall, or a picture of a baseball that was obviously out of focus.
Bringing the Eq back on helped at best. I certainly would be able to pick out either, in a blind test using the same components.

Is the problem fixed? I haven't tried video yet, I haven't checked for heat, and I'm not sure how to
switch back n forth from Audyssey to pure. That right there should be a single select button, both on the front panel
as well as on the remote. I do know that when I shut down last night, my amp was cool, the AVR was pretty warm
no doubt over 100ºF. on top.

If I'm still at 70% volume just to watch the news, it is not fixed.

 

[Acoustat]

Dynamic Volume has insignificant effect in Cbl/Sat video mode watching NFL
on local Sat channel. Still at 70% vol to watch, but the AVR had kept the Dynamic Vol
setting to Med (default no doubt) for the other inputs when I switched off of CD input.
I changed to Off and all settings (Light to Heavy) in Dynamic Vol with little change compared to CD
which had huge change differences.

 

[PENG]

You may want to try turning dynamic volume off and turn dynamic EQ on instead. Also, if you like relatively more neutral or accurate sound, it is better to use Audyssey or Audyssey flat but before running Audyssey, one should read carefully and thoroughly the Audyssey setup guide and their FAQ. If not done correctly, you would be better off turn it off. If done correctly, it should get you close to the best possible EQ'ed sound for your room at your main listening position. That does not mean you will like the sound because you may not prefer neutral and/or accurate sound, lots of people don't especially those who love their bass much louder than "live".

 

[Acoustat]

You may want to try turning dynamic volume off and turn dynamic EQ on instead...

That's how I have it set according to Giegars advice, however, the problem still remains, having to crank the volume
up to 70% for normal TV watching and carry on conversation i.e..the news, NFL, and series we're watching
and this also applies to DVD movies, only higher volume.
Only with CD playing did I notice much difference in your suggestion, sorry.

Still think either the receiver is bum out of the box, or the output level is so wimpy
that it is not specd out. Outlaw 975 specs at a nice 2V output but no Audyssey.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's how I have it set according to Giegars advice, however, the problem still remains, having to crank the volume
up to 70% for normal TV watching and carry on conversation i.e..the news, NFL, and series we're watching
and this also applies to DVD movies, only higher volume.
Only with CD playing did I notice much difference in your suggestion, sorry.

Still think either the receiver is bum out of the box, or the output level is so wimpy
that it is not specd out. Outlaw 975 specs at a nice 2V output but no Audyssey.

No guarantees, but it seems defective. I think the overheating problem is indicative. The volume set to 70% max even with the trim level > 4dB + Dynamic EQ on is also indicative.

 

[walter duque]

You do realize that your AVR is not made by Denon, it's farmed out. When you say hot is it above 130°+??

 

[Acoustat]

No guarantees, but it seems defective. I think the overheating problem is indicative. The volume set to 70% max even with the trim level > 4dB + Dynamic EQ on is also indicative.

I'm sure hoping this is the case, fingers crossed and hope to get it tomorrow if I beat UPS if not Tues. but who's in a hurry LOL

You do realize that your AVR is not made by Denon, it's farmed out. When you say hot is it above 130°+??

Good question as I do not have an infra red thermometer, but I doubt above 130º That might liquify the solder on the boards
Oh well, give me a couple days and should know if this is typical. I'll call Denon tomorrow and ask the pre out voltage.

 

[PENG]

I thought you are using the replacement unit already. While waiting, try resetting the unit to factory default condition and see if things change.

 

[Acoustat]

Replacement AVR=same difference

Ugh
According to Denon, if they're honest, the Pre-Outs are putting out 2.5V
I told him I don't believe it. Actually he didn't know and had to ask somebody.

See, my NAD is like on steroids compared using the NORMAL OUT to amp
compared to the Denon X4000. According to NAD
1700 Stereo Preamplifier Tuner - NAD Electronics
The MANUAL ( ^ 2nd download link on this page ^ )
The HIGH LEVEL OUTPUT is for situations requiring more than 2V up to 10V max.
which I am not using, so it's safe to say, my NAD is putting out 2V at max in NORMAL OUT.

So I looked up a Denon pre amp DN-500AV
http://literature.puertoricosupplier.com/077/PS76891.pdf
The output is like .318V or 318mV

I don't know if this is apples to apples as I'm sure this is the output sensitivity
as per another .pdf I looked up on the Denon pre amp. I'm sure output sensitivity
is different from output level. Which site do you believe? Is output sensitivity the same as output?
If so, then it's apples to apples.

The Outlaw 975 is 2V pre out.
My Carver amp has a 1.7V sensitivity input

 

[Acoustat]

Why not feed AVR into my NAD preamp?

According to NAD the max line input is 10V
Why then, could I not plug the Denon out (2.5V)
into my NAD Line In? Here's what I'm using to go by for this question
1700 Stereo Preamplifier Tuner - NAD Electronics
Specs are in the Data sheet, 1st link on this page ^

 

[Acoustat]

I can tell you all THIS much...

EDIT: blast it…
according to the Data sheet Normal out, tape, and EPL max voltage out is 10V
and 15V in High which is contrary to the owners manual I linked from the same page
in the above post.

I can tell you all this much…the Denon sounds like garbage compared to my NAD preamp.
With Auddyessy OFF, ON or Eq, there's just NO comparison. The Denon compromises the quality
of my system…with a helluva a lot of bells and whistles and flexibility. Sad but true.
It's not a volume thing. It's an experience at any volume. I'm glad I purchased what I did back then.
I don't think it would clean up the signal from the Denon though. GIGO

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can tell you all this much…the Denon sounds like garbage compared to my NAD preamp.

It is this type of unfortunate horrid impression that leads to the myth that separates are inherently better sounding than AVR or Japanese brands like Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, etc.

I have compared AVR to the ultra high-end preamps of Mark Levinson, Krell, and Bryston using the same speakers and I couldn't tell any significant differences in Direct Mode.

 

[GranteedEV]

EDIT: blast it…
according to the Data sheet Normal out, tape, and EPL max voltage out is 10V
and 15V in High which is contrary to the owners manual I linked from the same page
in the above post.

I can tell you all this much…the Denon sounds like garbage compared to my NAD preamp.
With Auddyessy OFF, ON or Eq, there's just NO comparison. The Denon compromises the quality
of my system…with a helluva a lot of bells and whistles and flexibility. Sad but true.
It's not a volume thing. It's an experience at any volume. I'm glad I purchased what I did back then.
I don't think it would clean up the signal from the Denon though. GIGO

What does the denon do to the signal, exactly?

 

[crossedover]

As TLS stated, as long as there is ample out voltage headroom, almost all modern preamps shouldn't be distinguished, at least not greatly. I've been using AVR'S as a preamp in my theater systems exclusively since 1999. Conversely I've used preamps only in my office and bedroom systems during the same time. Switching out speakers between the system yielded very little difference and I attributed that to room interactions. I couldn't tell a difference between a McIntosh C36 and a Yamaha 2095 .