How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[TLS Guy]

Negative.

Genelec 8260A

Those speakers have a lot to recommend them. A nice smooth response.

However they tried to guild the lily and spoil the result.

These are third party measurements.

This is the curse of commercial speakers. They have to play the numbers game., in this case getting an F3 of 29 Hz in a relatively small ported box. You can see from the response, this is almost certainly and extended bass alignment, with ripple in the audible range and prolonged decay in the lower octave. This contributes to the relatively poor step response. This will be audible and be unpleasant. It would be to me anyway. The other issue, is they left a loose end.

This is an active DSP speaker and yet there is inter diver delay. With this design, this is something that could and should have been taken care of for the amount charged.

By contrast this is what mine looks like.

I just don't understand why you bring a high priced studio monitor to market and don't cross the Ts and dot the Is. This is especially true in this case, as if this had been attended to, I suspect it would be a really stellar performer.

I know the argument is that this type of error is not discernible, to which I say "bunk".

 

[c2k]

I guess this is the choice one has to make. Do I want a speaker that measures closest to the reference, or one that sounds closest to the reference to me.

I mean, if my hearing is weak above 10kHz, any reference above 10kHz sounds weak to me. But that sound is not what the reference is actually producing or how the reference was intended to sound. So should my speaker perpetuate that weakness in my ear? If the speaker is a little "bright" above 10kHz, the thing I actually hear is closer to what the instrument is producing and was designed to produce.

Maybe understanding this issue, and deciding which I want, will make selecting my speakers a bit easier.
More accurate or Sounds better?

Am I understanding this debate correctly?

Edit: I know there are no instruments, (short of a dog whistle), above 10kHz. It's just an example.

You forgot some instruments that may include other harmonics other than that specific note.

But my idea of reference is, What ever reproduces closer to what I would expect from an orchestra so a flat response is ideal. But then there could also be mastering side problems.
While we are all worrying about FR we also forgetting other important aspects of a speaker as well.

 

[funky waves]

You forgot some instruments that may include other harmonics other than that specific note.

But my idea of reference is, What ever reproduces closer to what I would expect from an orchestra so a flat response is ideal. But then there could also be mastering side problems.
While we are all worrying about FR we also forgetting other important aspects of a speaker as well.

I was just about to say, when we say "measurements" people only seem to think about frequency response, while that is one of many, there are several that are at least as important(if not more). It has been touched on here already but how the speaker interacts with the room is very important, and is actually part of the speaker design(or lack thereof in some cases).

I do feel also there could very well be aspects to speakers there have yet to be measurements invented for... possibly.

 

[macddmac]

And my choice would be..

 

[GranteedEV]

Those speakers have a lot to recommend them. A nice smooth response.

However they tried to guild the lily and spoil the result.

These are third party measurements.

This is the curse of commercial speakers. They have to play the numbers game., in this case getting an F3 of 29 Hz in a relatively small ported box. You can see from the response, this is almost certainly and extended bass alignment, with ripple in the audible range and prolonged decay in the lower octave. This contributes to the relatively poor step response. This will be audible and be unpleasant. It would be to me anyway. The other issue, is they left a loose end.

This is an active DSP speaker and yet there is inter diver delay. With this design, this is something that could and should have been taken care of for the amount charged.

By contrast this is what mine looks like.

I just don't understand why you bring a high priced studio monitor to market and don't cross the Ts and dot the Is. This is especially true in this case, as if this had been attended to, I suspect it would be a really stellar performer.

I know the argument is that this type of error is not discernible, to which I say "bunk".

I never even realized those were ported (and questionably tuned at that) Always assumed they were sealed for integration with genelec's subs.

And yes, i see no reason why they can't get interdriver delay perfect with DSP - although fwiw that can only be so at a single point in space it will still improve other points in space.

 

[ImcLoud]

I had the best idea today...

Instead of listening to speakers lets just look at the graphs, we can market speakers that play for a microphone and the microphone has a printer attached and prints the graph out for you.. it will be awesome and the neighbors will never complain...

I can not believe this thread is still alive...

 

[Irvrobinson]

I can not believe this thread is still alive...

I can't believe that you're still here whining about it. It was a concise post though, kudos for that.

 

[ImcLoud]

I can't believe that you're still here whining about it. It was a concise post though, kudos for that.

I am nothing if not concise, lol ...

 

[herbu]

Then you have to decide passive vs. fully active speakers vs. partially active speakers.

Thanks, ADTG. That was going to be my next question. I don't understand passive vs. active.
Does it refer to the crossover(s)?
Does "active" mean I can somehow adjust them, (as if I knew more than the speaker designer)? Or maybe for room customization?

The probably dozen or so pairs/sets of speakers I've owned were all simple. I connect the speaker wires and Bob's your uncle!
Are some speakers more like subwoofers, with a number of configuation choices?

 

[herbu]

I just saw some active/passive discussion starting in this thread... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/91955-active-5-1-system.html

In my layman's terms, I think this is what I'm reading:
Passive: The whole signal is amplified, then split or filtered by crossover(s), both within the AVR and the speakers.
Active: The whole signal is split or filtered into separate frequency bands, then each band is amplified and sent to the appropriate driver(s).

Is that about right?

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Two for Two.

Entirely correct you are.

 

[c2k]

Thanks, ADTG. That was going to be my next question. I don't understand passive vs. active.
Does it refer to the crossover(s)?
Does "active" mean I can somehow adjust them, (as if I knew more than the speaker designer)? Or maybe for room customization?

The probably dozen or so pairs/sets of speakers I've owned were all simple. I connect the speaker wires and Bob's your uncle!
Are some speakers more like subwoofers, with a number of configuation choices?

Active means there the Analog signal will be taken at a sampled rate and converted to digital, and split depending on frequency you set it to. Of course this area is controlled digitally
Sample rates are in general 96khz.

Depending on the crossover equipment
This is how it goes depending on equipment, this does NOT apply to ALL Active Crossovers

ad -> Input lvl -> Input mute -> Input Band EQ -> Input Delay -> / > Xover

Channel 1/2 or high / low (depending what crossover you have and 2/3 way 2 way + sub etc) after above

-> output delay-> Band EQ-> output level-> output mute ->limiter -> DA ->

It's much more flexible than passive by an enormous amount.

Subwoofers are 1 Channel but you can choose to crossover from the sub or the receiver or pre/pro to the mains etc. If you mean active yes if you are thinking of Funk Audio Style DSP and crossovers, quite powerful actually. And even more so every once in awhile.

Active are capable of steep crossovers quite easily and intermodulation distortion is reduced.

Hope this helps

 

[Swerd]

I just saw some active/passive discussion starting in this thread... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/91955-active-5-1-system.html

In my layman's terms, I think this is what I'm reading:
Passive: The whole signal is amplified, then split or filtered by crossover(s), both within the AVR and the speakers.
Active: The whole signal is split or filtered into separate frequency bands, then each band is amplified and sent to the appropriate driver(s).

Is that about right?

As others have said, your understanding is correct. However, there are two different terms "active speakers" and "active crossovers" that can cause some confusion.

Any speaker that contains its own amplifier is an active speaker. Most subwoofers sold are active speakers, so are most desktop computer speakers. An example is the NHT SuperPower 2.1 Self-Powered Speaker. That speaker is a 2-way with a single amplifier. It must have an internal crossover, probably a passive crossover. These speakers require preamp level signal input from a preamp or receiver.

An active speaker can also contain two amplifiers (for a 2-way speaker) and no internal passive crossover network. Before the preamp level signals are amplified, they must be split and filtered by a crossover. Usually this is done by an external "active" crossover. Unlike passive crossovers, an active crossover requires an electric power source. One day we might see preamps or receivers that contain multiple built-in active crossovers. The technology exists now, but no manufacturer has gone there.

So, it is possible to have an active speaker with one built-in amp like the NHT SuperPower 2.1. It contains it's own (probably passive) crossover network. And it is possible to have an active speaker, with with an amp for each driver and no internal passive crossover network. It requires an active crossover which works upstream of the amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Does "active" mean I can somehow adjust them, (as if I knew more than the speaker designer)? Or maybe for room customization?

Experts can tell you how much more efficient and better active speakers are compared to passive.

Active means you can individually control each driver. For example, boost the tweeter by +3db or decrease by -2dB. Boost the midrange by +2dB or decrease by -4dB. Boost the woofer by +6dB or decrease by -1dB, etc. You can use DSP & EQ as well.

But as you mentioned, are you going to do all that?

I usually don't want to mess with the tweeter and midrange, but I do want to control the woofer/bass. And that is why I only want to actively bi-amp/control the bass of the tower and leave the midrange and tweeter alone - the partial active speakers.

But do active speakers actually sound better than passive speakers? If not, why bother using active speakers?

You'll have to listen to an active speaker and see for yourself.

Each active driver requires an amp. Most active speakers do have internal amps for each driver. People may argue that amps inside speakers and subs seldom malfunction. But the fact is, electronic malfunction is always a possibility. Complex electronics (DSP, EQ) + heat + age = failure. So what do you do if your active speakers malfunction? Can you install the new amps yourself? How available will those amps be 10 years from now?

Of course, some active speakers are powered externally with virtually any amp.

Many points to ponder.

 

[cschang]

Yes, I correlated my preference to the measurement of the RBH T30 speakers.



RBH Sound T-30LSE Signature Tower System Review | Audioholics

Sorry for the late reply...

So for you....FR, on and and off axis, are the only measurements needed to tell you how a speaker will sound?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So for you....FR, on and and off axis, are the only measurements needed to tell you how a speaker will sound?

No, for me, a million measurements still won't tell me if I will love the sound of the speakers until I have listened to the speakers.

 

[ImcLoud]

No, for me, a million measurements still won't tell me if I will love the sound of the speakers until I have listened to the speakers.

Yeah' What he said....

 

[cschang]

No, for me, a million measurements still won't tell me if I will love the sound of the speakers until I have listened to the speakers.

That's what I thought....and was hoping for.

But you previously stated that you correlate the sound you like to measurements, so I am confused as to what you mean. Which is why I asked the question of what measurements correlation is/was....and then all you posted were FR measurements.

 

[c2k]

Experts can tell you how much more efficient and better active speakers are compared to passive.

Active means you can individually control each driver. For example, boost the tweeter by +3db or decrease by -2dB. Boost the midrange by +2dB or decrease by -4dB. Boost the woofer by +6dB or decrease by -1dB, etc. You can use DSP & EQ as well.

But as you mentioned, are you going to do all that?

I usually don't want to mess with the tweeter and midrange, but I do want to control the woofer/bass. And that is why I only want to actively bi-amp/control the bass of the tower and leave the midrange and tweeter alone - the partial active speakers.

But do active speakers actually sound better than passive speakers? If not, why bother using active speakers?

You'll have to listen to an active speaker and see for yourself.

Each active driver requires an amp. Most active speakers do have internal amps for each driver. People may argue that amps inside speakers and subs seldom malfunction. But the fact is, electronic malfunction is always a possibility. Complex electronics (DSP, EQ) + heat + age = failure. So what do you do if your active speakers malfunction? Can you install the new amps yourself? How available will those amps be 10 years from now?

Of course, some active speakers are powered externally with virtually any amp.

Many points to ponder.

But as you mentioned, are you going to do all that?

If necessary.

But do active speakers actually sound better than passive speakers? If not, why bother using active speakers?

Yes, if a correction needed is beyond the ability for a passive one.
No inductors. No power saturation distortion.
Easy phase angle for the amplifier because there are no capacitors in the direct signal path.

Since the amp is directly connected to the driver, the amplifier presents its maximum damping factor the entire time. The control is at its best for the amplifier and can provide across the entire frequency range - not just the crossover network's pass band. Dampening is obvious, although well "behaved" drivers will show minimal improvement, the majority will be much better controlled. This can be found and shown in an impulse measurement. Amplitude peaks and dips are generally reduced.

A passive Crossover will always add undesirable impedance (frequency dependent). This could lead to severe uncontrolled cone movement, intermodulation distortion and loss of performance.

I will respond about amps later.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's what I thought....and was hoping for.

But you previously stated that you correlate the sound you like to measurements, so I am confused as to what you mean. Which is why I asked the question of what measurements correlation is/was....and then all you posted were FR measurements.

Probably a miscommunication.