SVS PB-2000 and SB-2000 Subwoofers Preview

[dtossan]

Sealed will sound better in your room than the quasi-anechoic frequency response suggests

Due to room gain, the Sealed sub will actually have a more extended low bass performance than what the quasi-anechoic frequency response suggests.

In general, Sealed has best musicality. You would likely prefer Sealed if you are an audiophile or a musician. Ported has more slam, especially in a large room.

See this excellent article of Sealed vs Ported Subs - A Comparison
Sealed vs Ported Subwoofers - A Comparison

 

[robross0606]

I'm considering either PC12-NSD, PB-2000 or SB-2000 for a new home theater in my basement. The space is(regrettably) a somewhat large and open floor plan so I'm considering getting one sub now and supplementing with a second later on. Even with the large area, space is a concern due to the size of the projection screen on the wall.

I would love to get an PB-2000 with a frequency response down to 17Hz, but it is so darn big. I spoke to SVS and it is possible to put the sub on it's side so that the dimensions are 21Dx25Wx17H instead of 25Dx17Wx21H. I might be able to make the PC12-NSD work but it would have to be crammed in a corner.

Or I could go with the SB-2000 which is significantly smaller and will fit just about anywhere.

 

[3db]

Some preliminary measurment son teh PB/SB 2000

SVS PB-2000: Measurements

SVS SB-2000: Measurements

 

[Muzykant]

Thank you for the link! So, SB-2000 is musical and precise. Great news! Also it seemed to be capable to reproduce (very quietly) that 16 Hz organ pedal note, which my SB-13 Ultra can't replicate in a similarly sized room.

 

[shadyJ]

Also it seemed to be capable to reproduce (quietly) that 16 Hz organ pedal note, which my SB-13 Ultra can't replicate in a similarly sized room.

If that is the case there is something very wrong with your SB13. Neither of these subs are going to playback 16 Hz with any real audibility. You will need a deeply tuned ported sub for that.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Thank you for the link! So, SB-2000 is musical and precise. Great news! Also it seemed to be capable to reproduce (very quietly) that 16 Hz organ pedal note, which my SB-13 Ultra can't replicate in a similarly sized room.

So how is musical and precise measured? I think this recently posted article by SVS hits most of the factors: frequency response (including extension and roll-off), amplitude/max output, distortion, group delay/ringing/overhang...anything that I'm missing?


Sealed vs Ported Subwoofers - A Comparison

Fact is, for all the claims of musicality in a sealed sub, at many of the claimed affected frequencies ("I heard that the PB-2000 didn't have quite the mid- and upper-bass pitch definition and punch of the SB-2000."), there is no significant measurable difference between how the PB and SB should be reproducing those frequencies.

They more I look into this for my own purchase decisions, the more I'm leaning toward declaring a "myth of musicality" for sealed subs. Smaller enclosure: yes. More shallow roll-off which can benefit from room gain: yes. More inherent definition of mid bass frequencies in a way that would be audible...no.

 

[3db]

They more I look into this for my own purchase decisions, the more I'm leaning toward declaring a "myth of musicality" for sealed subs. Smaller enclosure: yes. More shallow roll-off which can benefit from room gain: yes. More inherent definition of mid bass frequencies in a way that would be audible...no.

I don't believe in that myth either especially after I heard my Rythmic LV12-R play for music and HT. In terms of articulate bass and musicality only, I would pit my sub against any sealed sub and you would be hard pressed to hear the difference between it and a sealed sub

 

[Muzykant]

So are you guys saying that aside from a smaller size, in a large room sealed subwoofers have no advantage? I didn't know that. When I bought my SB-13 Ultra, size was not a problem, and I could have easily spent extra $400 to get the ported PB-13. I thought its sealed brother would bring a bit more nuance to music, that's the only reason I got it.

 

[mike c]

i can hear the difference between sealed and ported (similar woofers)
i just prefer the sealed for music and ported for movies.

 

[Steve81]

So how is musical and precise measured? I think this recently posted article by SVS hits most of the factors: frequency response (including extension and roll-off), amplitude/max output, distortion, group delay/ringing/overhang...anything that I'm missing?

In terms of addressing things from the subwoofer side of the equation, I think Josh's battery of measurements is pretty comprehensive. However, the room and poor setup (placement, EQ or lack thereof, etc) can easily spoil your results. From that standpoint, something like the SB13 can have some important advantages over the PB13. Small size is great from an aesthetic standpoint, but more importantly, it opens up placement options that just aren't there for the PB13. In addition, there's the matter of roll off profile which you mentioned. In a smaller room, it's not hard to imagine that a subwoofer with a shallow rolloff starting ~35Hz having a pretty flat response down to 20Hz and below. However, the PB13U in that same room will have a bottom heavy response without correction. Combined, those factors can make a great deal of difference for what you actually get at the seats.

 

[zhimbo]

In addition, there's the matter of roll off profile which you mentioned. In a smaller room, it's not hard to imagine that a subwoofer with a shallow rolloff starting ~35Hz having a pretty flat response down to 20Hz and below. However, the PB13U in that same room will have a bottom heavy response without correction[emphasis added] Combined, those factors can make a great deal of difference for what you actually get at the seats.

I've always imagined the sealed=musical thing in large part stems from the not-so-long-ago days where room correction was harder to come by; without it, in most typical small-to-even moderately large listening rooms you're likely to get boomy bottom-heavy bass from a ported sub. Room correction isn't magic, and good room correction isn't a guaranteed thing even now, but it certainly makes a big difference. Well designed ported subs can have very low distortion and well-managed group delay, but without some room correction may still sound a mess.

 

[Steve81]

I've always imagined the sealed=musical thing in large part stems from the not-so-long-ago days where room correction was harder to come by; without it, in most typical small-to-even moderately large listening rooms you're likely to get boomy bottom-heavy bass from a ported sub.

I'd have to agree with this sentiment. Looking back at some of the old tests done by Ilkka, he's got a couple of high end Brit subs which ostensibly didn't fare too well compared with stuff like the PB13 which he also measured:
B&W Pv1 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
REL Storm 5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
SVS PB13-Ultra 20 Hz tune - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
Now one could sit back and take the easy route to say that the Ultra has its way with these little sealed boxes. But, when you step back to consider the market these subs are geared towards, i.e. perhaps someone in a small London flat, their performance begins to make a little more sense.

Room correction isn't magic

Not at all IME. YMMV of course, but I feel I got better results out of manually EQing my old PB13 than I did via Audyssey.

 

[Mo Noyz]

I ran my EmoQ twice when I first got my pre-amp, and was sourly disappointed with the results. Went back to the flat settings, which is what I had also ran on my previous receiver.

In my experience, if a piece of equipment is built well there is no need for EQ'ing.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

In terms of addressing things from the subwoofer side of the equation, I think Josh's battery of measurements is pretty comprehensive. However, the room and poor setup (placement, EQ or lack thereof, etc) can easily spoil your results. From that standpoint, something like the SB13 can have some important advantages over the PB13. Small size is great from an aesthetic standpoint, but more importantly, it opens up placement options that just aren't there for the PB13. In addition, there's the matter of roll off profile which you mentioned. In a smaller room, it's not hard to imagine that a subwoofer with a shallow rolloff starting ~35Hz having a pretty flat response down to 20Hz and below. However, the PB13U in that same room will have a bottom heavy response without correction. Combined, those factors can make a great deal of difference for what you actually get at the seats.

Agreed on size and placement, but I don't think that perfect placement is what drives the opinion about "musicality". Also agreed on roll off in a smaller, closed room, though does that open the door for the maxim "Ported for large open rooms and sealed for smaller and closed?" Also, emphasized low-freq response is easily correctable in EQ, as you noted, so now we have "EQ= musicality".

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

So are you guys saying that aside from a smaller size, in a large room sealed subwoofers have no advantage? I didn't know that. When I bought my SB-13 Ultra, size was not a problem, and I could have easily spent extra $400 to get the ported PB-13. I thought its sealed brother would bring a bit more nuance to music, that's the only reason I got it.

I could assert "no", but would rather ask the question: "What is the measurable advantage that lends itself to 'musicality'?"

 

[Steve81]

Also agreed on roll off in a smaller, closed room, though does that open the door for the maxim "Ported for large open rooms and sealed for smaller and closed?"

It's a little more complicated, as it depends on the response profile more than simply sealed vs ported. Suffice it to say, if you've got a subwoofer with flat anechoic response down to 20Hz (disregarding the small sealed subs heavily EQed to achieve such a response), it's going to be a better out of the box fit for a large room with minimal gain than a glorified broom closet. AFAIK, SVS does take this into account when steering people towards their sealed vs ported offerings.

Also, emphasized low-freq response is easily correctable in EQ, as you noted, so now we have "EQ= musicality".

Unfortunately, it's not necessarily that easy. Auto-calibration tries to make it so, but IME it's not always terribly effective. Manual EQ of course requires some tools (which are also handy to see what auto-cal is up to) and ideally a bit of knowledge about what you're doing. Even then, there are problems that EQ can only half solve. One problem I found with the Ultra's response in its corner location was that its top end rolled off much beyond 70Hz. Audyssey's solution was simply to boost the heck out of this band, but that chewed up headroom significantly. Fiddling with placement helped to an extent, but going back to the size issue: there's really only so many spots I could realistically experiment with.

 

[Muzykant]

I could assert "no", but would rather ask the question: "What is the measurable advantage that lends itself to 'musicality'?"

Well, for me "musicality" pretty much means pitch clarity and definition, lack of distortion, dynamic range (amplifier headroom?), lack of coloration (no unnatural frequency peaks or deeps, no enclosure noise), ability to play fast bass passages without blurring the notes together. A simple test for me is to see if I can notate the fast bass passage I just heard. So, what are the technical terms for that? Overhang? Group delay?

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Well, for me "musicality" pretty much means pitch clarity and definition, lack of distortion, dynamic range (amplifier headroom?), lack of coloration (no unnatural frequency peaks or deeps), ability to play fast bass passages without blurring the notes together. A simple test for me is to see if I can notate the fast bass passage I just heard. So, what are the technical terms for that? Overhang? Group delay?

Both overhang and group delay are used to describe the slow decay of deep bass frequencies typical in a ported sub. However, by SVSs own example, differences in group delay between sealed and ported modes are negligible across most of the audible spectrum, so where does the enhanced "musicality" of sealed subs come in?

 

[Muzykant]

I bought SB-13 after reading online reviews. I never spoke to SVS about my purchase, and never auditioned the ported version. I based my decision on the raving professional and user reviews. However, aside from its in-room FR, I am very happy with my SB-13, and vast majority of music I listen to has bass well within its range - above 30 Hz.

It could be that I am a bit out of touch with technological progress and such. So, please educate me about these things if you see fit.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

I bought SB-13 after reading online reviews. I never spoke to SVS about my purchase, and never auditioned the ported version. I based my decision on the raving professional and user reviews. However, aside from its in-room FR, I am very happy with my SB-13, and vast majority of music I listen to has bass well within its range - above 30 Hz.

It could be that I am a bit out of touch with technological progress and such. So, please educate me about these things if you see fit.

I don't mean to sound like I'm disparaging sealed subs. I'm with you: when I heard the SVS SB13-Ultra in my room, that sold it. So much headroom that I was shaking a large space without hitting the limiter. Great extension down low. I'm now working through an upgrade path for my single PB12-NSD.

That said, I'm probably going to go with pair of PC12-Plus because of the small footprint, 15hz tune, and still huge output. As much as I love the SB13-Ultra, I didn't find it faster or more musical than my ported SVS at similar volumes. Keeping in mind this was in a large, open room.

Too much rambling I think. For me, I'm just having a hard time seeing the term "musical" thrown around with every sealed sub as a pro over ported without identifying the performance advantage that lends itself to this musicality.