Will my setup benefit by adding an Anthem MCA20 or 30?

[PENG]

My current setup is comprised of the following:

Paradigm Studio 100s v3. (Mains)
Paradigm Studio CC470 (Center)
Paradigm Studio ADP470s (Surround)
Paradigm Sub PW2100

All (aside from the sub)......powered by a Yamaha RX-V4600.
.............................................................................

Will I be able to tell the difference sonically by adding the MCAs or am I just buying additional insurance in the form of headroom and reduced chance of clipping induced speaker damage? Would the MCA20 make more sense or the MCA30 (Mains + Center)

Thanks

Since Wrk_hrd2Play doesn't seem to mind us debating, I would like to try this one more time.

Okay, he first asked if he would be able to tell the difference sonically.

To me, those Studio 100 are great speakers, I almost bought them. They have many drivers, but they are not that inefficient (91 dB room/88 dB anechoic). I A/B them between an RX-V2400 and an Anthem SEPARATE system (yes I am repeating myself). The 2400 is two models below his brand new RX-V4600. I did hear (mtrycrafts: yes I admit it was subjective) some sonic difference. The difference seemed clear to me but it was relatively (e.g. compared to the difference between the S3 and the Studio 100) subtle. Of course, I only A/B them in 2 channels, listening to my own CD's. I know, from this and other forums that there are other people who claimed sonic difference between a decent receiver such as the 4600 and some mid level separates are not that big. So logically, I think Wrk_hrd_2play would quite likely (not 100% sure) hear a sonic difference but we don't know how significant (remember, some claim huge/dramatic improvements in similar situation) that difference would sound to him. That's why my recommendation is that Wrk_hrd_2play should bring a few CD's, preferably some Telarc, Chesky, Reference classicals and 5.1 jazz or his own favorite ones, and find a place where he can A/B the Anthem and the Yammie. In other words, don't just listen to our difference in opinion, but go and listen to the difference (or lack of) in sound for himself. Only he can tell if the difference is worth the extra money.

The second and third part of his question was

"am I just buying additional insurance in the form of headroom and reduced chance of clipping induced speaker damage? Would the MCA20 make more sense or the MCA30 (Mains + Center)"

This are the easier parts because we don't have to be subjective about it. Regardless of how unlikely the Yamaha RX-V4600 alone will cause clipping induced speaker damage, the MCA is a more powerful amplifier and will therefore, in RELATIVE (mtrycrafts: I know his 4600 is not clipping now anyway) term, less likely to clip than the 4600.

Finally, I think the 4600 can take care of the center and the surround channels easily, so a conventional stereo amp seem to make more sense. Less money, less weight, less cabling, and you can use it for a separate music system, should you choose to leave the 4600 alone after you play enough with the MCA.

mulester7/mtrycrafts, comments?

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....he was saying beware of amps that claim excessive amounts of peak power....you knew that....I'll seek better sources if you'll seek therapy.....

Lets try again:

Conversely, beware of amplifiers with very high headroom ratings, say 6dB. Such amps most likely use poor power supplies that only able to provide higher output levels for short periods of time


Hello? What is headroom used for if not for short time periods?
He is contradicting himself.
I am not sure I have see a 6dB head room capability, have you?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Since Wrk_hrd2Play doesn't seem to mind us debating, I would like to try this one more time.

Okay, he first asked if he would be able to tell the difference sonically.

To me, those Studio 100 are great speakers, I almost bought them. They have many drivers, but they are not that inefficient (91 dB room/88 dB anechoic). I A/B them between an RX-V2400 and an Anthem SEPARATE system (yes I am repeating myself). The 2400 is two models below his brand new RX-V4600. I did hear (mtrycrafts: yes I admit it was subjective) some sonic difference. The difference seemed clear to me but it was relatively (e.g. compared to the difference between the S3 and the Studio 100) subtle. Of course, I only A/B them in 2 channels, listening to my own CD's. I know, from this and other forums that there are other people who claimed sonic difference between a decent receiver such as the 4600 and some mid level separates are not that big. So logically, I think Wrk_hrd_2play would quite likely (not 100% sure) hear a sonic difference but we don't know how significant (remember, some claim huge/dramatic improvements in similar situation) that difference would sound to him. That's why my recommendation is that Wrk_hrd_2play should bring a few CD's, preferably some Telarc, Chesky, Reference classicals and 5.1 jazz or his own favorite ones, and find a place where he can A/B the Anthem and the Yammie. In other words, don't just listen to our difference in opinion, but go and listen to the difference (or lack of) in sound for himself. Only he can tell if the difference is worth the extra money.

The second and third part of his question was

"am I just buying additional insurance in the form of headroom and reduced chance of clipping induced speaker damage? Would the MCA20 make more sense or the MCA30 (Mains + Center)"

This are the easier parts because we don't have to be subjective about it. Regardless of how unlikely the Yamaha RX-V4600 alone will cause clipping induced speaker damage, the MCA is a more powerful amplifier and will therefore, in RELATIVE (mtrycrafts: I know his 4600 is not clipping now anyway) term, less likely to clip than the 4600.

Finally, I think the 4600 can take care of the center and the surround channels easily, so a conventional stereo amp seem to make more sense. Less money, less weight, less cabling, and you can use it for a separate music system, should you choose to leave the 4600 alone after you play enough with the MCA.

mulester7/mtrycrafts, comments?

Comments??? You know I have comments

I am not sure what the power difference is between those models. A 3dB difference would buy him pretty good insurance, YES

I doubt a 1dB is worth it for him though

He should be made well aware the vagaries of sighted comparison, let alone when levels are not matched properly that he most likely will not be able to accomplish in a store. So, what will he get out from such a poorly matched comparison? Especially if the sales staff are playing tricks.

Anyways, he should compare for peace of mind at least.

 

[mulester7]

.....WorkHard2PlayHard, you asked originally if adding a slave amp rated at 200 per-continuous, would benefit your front mains, and you said you have a surround receiver rated somewhere around 120-130, which is only remotely accurate at TWO channels driven, and more like about 75 with ALL channels driven.....the answer is YES, and that has been the opinion of about 10 other persons posting in the last couple of months or so....happy listening.....

 

[Mobius]

Oh, now you are trying to justify this by what others subjectively think? Not very good data on your part.

I wonder if any one of them really compared it under DBT protocol? I seriously doubt it. Hence, the reliability of their thinking process is questionable.
He is not clipping. Obviously he is not driving his amp to levels he is listeing to. So, please tell me how will he benefit by more power he will not use??????

So I guess everyone should justify amps on what you think?

I tested my system both with and without an amp and to ME the difference was obvious. That's the only protocol testing I needed to do in order to decide to keep the amp. Like I said in my original post I am sure others have different opinions on this topic and it's obvious that you do.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So I guess everyone should justify amps on what you think?

Justify? Is that what I asked for? I think you made a testable claim and you had some doubt those claims.

I tested my system both with and without an amp and to ME the difference was obvious. That's the only protocol testing I needed to do in order to decide to keep the amp. Like I said in my original post I am sure others have different opinions on this topic and it's obvious that you do.

Yes, you don't need to justify your preference to anyone. But, if you want others to take your claims more seriously, you need better protocols.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Marty is not sold on the benefits of different makes of amplifiers. He's a spec guy, as well as a DBT science nut, and if a manufacturer says it puts out a 100 watts at undetectable distortion, it's a 100 watts. It's a little more involved than that, but in a nutshell, you're not going to convince him otherwise.

You need to get past that, and do something simple for yourself. DBT's and specs don't put smiles on your faces at night when you pop in your favorite cd's. Go down to your local Rat Shack and pick up one of these. Tape the receipt to the box, because you're going to return this. Hook up your monster towers to this amp, and see if it sounds better to you. If you notice more robust bass, better highs, and a smile on your face, you just might benefit from an outboard amp. This is not a quality piece of equipment, but it's pure power. If you do notice a difference, there's a great forum topic over at AVS on pro amps and how they benefit systems. PM me if you'd like the link. Here's the cheapo power amp to demo:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&category_name=CTLG_007_008_004_000&product_id=32-2055

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....WorkHard2PlayHard, you asked originally if adding a slave amp rated at 200 per-continuous, would benefit your front mains, and you said you have a surround receiver rated somewhere around 120-130, which is only remotely accurate at TWO channels driven,

Why do you think this?



and more like about 75 with ALL channels driven.....the answer is YES, and that has been the opinion of about 10 other persons posting in the last couple of months or so....happy listening.....


Or not. Besides, which movie or music demands peak power from all channels at the same instant??? Are you aware of one??? Let me know so I can check it too. If none, what's the big deal???

 

[mtrycrafts]

Marty is not sold on the benefits of different makes of amplifiers. He's a spec guy, as well as a DBT science nut, and if a manufacturer says it puts out a 100 watts at undetectable distortion, it's a 100 watts. It's a little more involved than that, but in a nutshell, you're not going to convince him otherwise.

You need to get past that, and do something simple for yourself. DBT's and specs don't put smiles on your faces at night when you pop in your favorite cd's. Go down to your local Rat Shack and pick up one of these. Tape the receipt to the box, because you're going to return this. Hook up your monster towers to this amp, and see if it sounds better to you. If you notice more robust bass, better highs, and a smile on your face, you just might benefit from an outboard amp. This is not a quality piece of equipment, but it's pure power. If you do notice a difference, there's a great forum topic over at AVS on pro amps and how they benefit systems. PM me if you'd like the link. Here's the cheapo power amp to demo:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&category_name=CTLG_007_008_004_000&product_id=32-2055

Why pay more for an expensive sugar pill? You won't know if it is an expensive sugar pill until It is checked out properly. I get a frown not a smile with an expensive sugar pill

 

[mulester7]

.....Mtrycrafts, I think what has brought more confusion into the thread than anything is the word headroom....here's what you need to do....listen to a familiar CD with "big watts", at a given spl level you assign to be a reference level, then use your surround receiver at the same reference level....or don't....real simple......

 

[mulester7]

.....one more stipulation....the "big watts" slave amp you use, has a damping factor of NO LESS than 300, and I've got two "warm" McIntosh slave amps with damping factors of 100 now drawing dust....won't argue with you or anyone, concerning damping factor and it's importance, either....yeah, I realize I'm wasting key strokes.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Why pay more for an expensive sugar pill? You won't know if it is an expensive sugar pill until It is checked out properly. I get a frown not a smile with an expensive sugar pill

You don't believe in my unscientific theory on weight? There's 100 watt amps that weigh 24lbs, and some that weigh 124lbs. Could a larger heat sink in the same spec'd amp help after reference levels have been reached over an hours time? How about the power supply? Could it be possible a larger toroidal unit perform better than a smaller unit which is specd similarly? If DBT's are done in the first 5 minutes of testing, and not in the final minutes of a multiple hour tests, who knows the proper outcome. We don't need DBTs - humans make errors. We need computer programs to test our equipment. The problem is, computers can't (at least not yet) decipher the differences in perfect tonality. Even the latest Denon software in auto room calibration makes errors.

I can put a clothes hanger on your nose, blind fold you, feed you a peeled potato, and tell you it's an apple. But there comes a point when you're going to remove that clothes hanger and blind fold, and see what you're actually eating. My bet is you'll go back to the apple.

Then you're going to kick my @$$.

 

[jaxvon]

I don't know how you can talk sh*t Mtry, as I recall you own Bryston amps. And those AREN'T cheap.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't know how you can talk sh*t Mtry, as I recall you own Bryston amps. And those AREN'T cheap.

Your recollections are unreliable too But, even if I had them, it would not be for their sonic advantages.

 

[jaxvon]

Who wants some foot? *raises hand*

 

[mtrycrafts]

You don't believe in my unscientific theory on weight?

Not at all. Weight may mean it will drive lower impedance loads, maybe.



There's 100 watt amps that weigh 24lbs, and some that weigh 124lbs. Could a larger heat sink in the same spec'd amp help after reference levels have been reached over an hours time?


Tell me the RMS specs. Best if we don's sp[eculate on things not in evidence


How about the power supply? Could it be possible a larger toroidal unit perform better than a smaller unit which is specd similarly?


How about big filter caps?



If DBT's are done in the first 5 minutes of testing, and not in the final minutes of a multiple hour tests, who knows the proper outcome.


You can do DBT any time you desire


We don't need DBTs - humans make errors.

Of course we need DBT lieting to evaluate audible differences. Instruments can tell you measure differences.

We need computer programs to test our equipment.

Yes, we do.


The problem is, computers can't (at least not yet) decipher the differences in perfect tonality. Even the latest Denon software in auto room calibration makes errors.


Ah, nothing to do with tonality but outside noise interference.

I can put a clothes hanger on your nose, blind fold you, feed you a peeled potato, and tell you it's an apple. But there comes a point when you're going to remove that clothes hanger and blind fold, and see what you're actually eating. My bet is you'll go back to the apple.

Then you're going to kick my @$$.

Maybe, maybe not, but no butt kicking

 

[Wrk_hrd2Play_hr]

Since Wrk_hrd2Play doesn't seem to mind us debating, I would like to try this one more time.

Okay, he first asked if he would be able to tell the difference sonically.

To me, those Studio 100 are great speakers, I almost bought them. They have many drivers, but they are not that inefficient (91 dB room/88 dB anechoic). I A/B them between an RX-V2400 and an Anthem SEPARATE system (yes I am repeating myself). The 2400 is two models below his brand new RX-V4600. I did hear (mtrycrafts: yes I admit it was subjective) some sonic difference. The difference seemed clear to me but it was relatively (e.g. compared to the difference between the S3 and the Studio 100) subtle. Of course, I only A/B them in 2 channels, listening to my own CD's. I know, from this and other forums that there are other people who claimed sonic difference between a decent receiver such as the 4600 and some mid level separates are not that big. So logically, I think Wrk_hrd_2play would quite likely (not 100% sure) hear a sonic difference but we don't know how significant (remember, some claim huge/dramatic improvements in similar situation) that difference would sound to him. That's why my recommendation is that Wrk_hrd_2play should bring a few CD's, preferably some Telarc, Chesky, Reference classicals and 5.1 jazz or his own favorite ones, and find a place where he can A/B the Anthem and the Yammie. In other words, don't just listen to our difference in opinion, but go and listen to the difference (or lack of) in sound for himself. Only he can tell if the difference is worth the extra money.

The second and third part of his question was

"am I just buying additional insurance in the form of headroom and reduced chance of clipping induced speaker damage? Would the MCA20 make more sense or the MCA30 (Mains + Center)"

This are the easier parts because we don't have to be subjective about it. Regardless of how unlikely the Yamaha RX-V4600 alone will cause clipping induced speaker damage, the MCA is a more powerful amplifier and will therefore, in RELATIVE (mtrycrafts: I know his 4600 is not clipping now anyway) term, less likely to clip than the 4600.

Finally, I think the 4600 can take care of the center and the surround channels easily, so a conventional stereo amp seem to make more sense. Less money, less weight, less cabling, and you can use it for a separate music system, should you choose to leave the 4600 alone after you play enough with the MCA.

mulester7/mtrycrafts, comments?

Peng,

Thanks for your feedback.

First off, WOW!! I can't believe how this thread has morphed....don't get me wrong, I do like the debate....lot of good info and a lot of strong opinions (without a whole lot of emotion).

Based on a couple of reviews on the 4600, its supposed to put out ~138wpc in 2 channel mode and ~40wpc all channels driven. I recognize that the all channels drive test is not realistic, however, it is a metric nonetheless.

Given how strong the 4600 is in 2 channel mode, I'm not expecting any material improvement when adding an Anthem MCA to the 100s. However, where I would expect to see improvement is when listening to multichannel music and movies, where the 4600 is driving a total of....yes....17 different drivers (5 tweeters, 6 mid-ranges, 6 woofers) in my 5.1 setup.

My local Paradigm dealer also carries Anthem and has a demo MCA20 on hand. He's been very accomodating and will let me take the MCA20 home to test it in my own environment.

Here's a question...how would one set up an A/B for a 4600+ speakers vs. 4600+MCA20+Speakers. I guess, I could have one set of speaker wires run from the 4600 to one set of binding posts on the speaker directly and then another set of speaker wires from the MCA to the 2nd set of binding posts (without removing the connecting plate between the two sets of binding posts) and then have the Yammy Pre-outs run to the MCA. I'd have to be really careful to not accidently send current to both sets of binding posts at the same time. Any other suggestions??

Thanks

 

[Doug917]

Also, remember to balance the SPL level both ways to get an accurate listening test. This, I think, is why most of the time people judge by their ears. How do you adjust the levels through the reciever, then change to the amp without having a long delay of readjusting to achieve the same SPL level with the amp? I would advise listening to a piece you know very well before and after. True, it's not scientific, but most of us don't have all the equipment laying around for a true "balanced" A/B comparison. If it's not easily noticible, take the amp back and save yourself the money. In my case of the Yammy 2500 paired with the Outlaw 755s it was very noticible, so I kept the amps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Peng,

Thanks for your feedback.

First off, WOW!! I can't believe how this thread has morphed....don't get me wrong, I do like the debate....lot of good info and a lot of strong opinions (without a whole lot of emotion).

That is why we are here, to discuss not just follow like sheep

Based on a couple of reviews on the 4600, its supposed to put out ~138wpc in 2 channel mode and ~40wpc all channels driven. I recognize that the all channels drive test is not realistic, however, it is a metric nonetheless.

This link, while incomplete and not very up to date, has amp tests:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm

Your Yam, 4600 is not tested but I couldn't find a Yam with such a disparity between 2 ch and all channel driven as you claim.
Do you have a link to the test?
Yes, it is a metric, but if it has nothing to do with reality, what good is it for?



Given how strong the 4600 is in 2 channel mode, I'm not expecting any material improvement when adding an Anthem MCA to the 100s.

Same or a lesser amp

However, where I would expect to see improvement is when listening to multichannel music and movies, where the 4600 is driving a total of....yes....17 different drivers (5 tweeters, 6 mid-ranges, 6 woofers) in my 5.1 setup.

Just because you unbundled and count all the drivers, another metric, it has no relevance to the capability of the amp driving a multi-way speaker.


My local Paradigm dealer also carries Anthem and has a demo MCA20 on hand. He's been very accommodating and will let me take the MCA20 home to test it in my own environment.

Just be careful how you compare or you will get a false sense of security



Here's a question...how would one set up an A/B for a 4600+ speakers vs. 4600+MCA20+Speakers. I guess, I could have one set of speaker wires run from the 4600 to one set of binding posts on the speaker directly and then another set of speaker wires from the MCA to the 2nd set of binding posts (without removing the connecting plate between the two sets of binding posts) and then have the Yammy Pre-outs run to the MCA.


NO!!! This is how you will blow an amp for sure.
You would have to have a double pole switch at the speakers with speaker wire from the two amps to it on one side and to the speaker from the center pole to break before you make contact. You would need to sources to drive the amps so you can level match them to very close tolerances. However, you will not be able to synchronize two CDs an you can swap Cds or use two without back and forth switching without stopping or muting a CD or you will figure out which CD is behind the other and will know.

 

[Wrk_hrd2Play_hr]

Your Yam, 4600 is not tested but I couldn't find a Yam with such a disparity between 2 ch and all channel driven as you claim.
Do you have a link to the test?

Secrets 4600 Test