Will my setup benefit by adding an Anthem MCA20 or 30?

[mtrycrafts]

.....boys, I'm done with this....power your speakers with 2 watts a channel if you wish......

Now you are being absurd

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....and the issue/question is, does headroom bring clarity and life to what is reproduced, especially at reference levels...

Yes, headroom can help, but only in the peaks if the demand is there for the momentary peak power beyond the RMS rating. It helps not one iota if you never get there. How could it?
If one clips his amp regularly because of the speaker impedance, sensitivity and listening levels, then one may need a better amp, a better speaker, or rething their listening level enjoyment All options to select from.

 

[mulester7]

Yes, headroom can help, but only in the peaks if the demand is there for the momentary peak power beyond the RMS rating. It helps not one iota if you never get there. How could it?
If one clips his amp regularly because of the speaker impedance, sensitivity and listening levels, then one may need a better amp, a better speaker, or rethink their listening level enjoyment All options to select from.

....Mtry, listen....I'm about seventh in line here saying there is a very positive result from employing substantial headroom to drive a speaker, over an actual 70-80 watt per channel receiver.....

.....one reason could be the damping factor is usually higher in a slave amp....I'm not sure a receiver even lists that statistic....on and off the voice-coil more quickly....but I feel the main reason is the reserve of current supply that is ONLY being sipped....at reference levels, you may get into a decent swigging from the transformer, which would depend on the AMOUNT of headroom, and the peaks and the lows are FULLY covered, "MORE QUICKLY", for more clarity by cleaner definiton, low end cleanness of oscillations, cleanness overall, and I'm beginning to think most of your family wears Army boots, and can't understand "IT MUST BE HEARD, AND IS DIFFICULT TO DESCRIBE!!"....

.....ahem....Mtrycrafts, here it is in a nutshell....go listen to one of your favorite CD's at a store that carries YOUR speakers you currently have, and tell them you want to hear YOUR speakers, first being driven by a receiver, and then by a slave amp that has at least 200 per at 8, hopefully 500 per at 8....the same reference level both times, picked by you, listening to certain parts of your favorite CD, now there it is.....

.....I know, what I know, what I know, and I'm seventh in line....Peng, this goes for you too.....

 

[mulester7]

I don't know what you meant by "this goes for you too"

.....PENG, you're not the first to take me wrong when I can only be represented by words on paper....I only meant "I would that you might ALSO go listen to a fair testing of AB comparison", that's all....the Army boots were all for Mtrycrafts, the guy who loves to irritate Mac, haha.....

.....PENG, we're all just like speakers....we all have a different +/- db top to bottom concerning our individual hearing....the current issue though is musicality, MORE toe-tapping from the low-end being more defined and tighter, MORE chills felt, and simply more pleasant CLARITY full-range bringing "live presence"....good term....and you're a good man, PENG.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

....Mtry, listen....I'm about seventh in line here saying there is a very positive result from employing substantial headroom to drive a speaker, over an actual 70-80 watt per channel receiver.....

You call that evidence? By voting?
You think that receiver doesn't have any headroom? It may, or it may not.
If you drive that 80 watt receiver beyond its design limit as a rule, not as an exception, you need a better speaker or a better amp.

.....one reason could be the damping factor is usually higher in a slave amp...

Absolute nonsense. Damping fator beyond 10 is not much use. As best I know all SS amps have sufficiently low output impedance to have at least 10.
I have posted links on this before. DF is a bogus reason except when it comes to tubes. We are not discussing tubes here, are we.



on and off the voice-coil more quickly...



Nonsense. Please read and don't repeat the same sin, ever:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/msg/ac12552519a4eb04?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&start=30&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=34


.but I feel the main reason is the reserve of current supply that is ONLY being sipped....at reference levels, you may get into a decent swigging from the transformer, which would depend on the AMOUNT of headroom, and the peaks and the lows are FULLY covered, "MORE QUICKLY", for more clarity by cleaner definiton, low end cleanness of oscillations, cleanness overall, and I'm beginning to think most of your family wears Army boots, and can't understand "IT MUST BE HEARD, AND IS DIFFICULT TO DESCRIBE!!"....

What do you think the caps are for in the power supply but headroom???

If you don't drive the amp into the headroom region, it has no effect on anything. If you drive it beyond the headroom capability, you will clip. If you do this on a regular, continuous basis, you need to change something, speakers or amp.

.....ahem....Mtrycrafts, here it is in a nutshell....go listen to one of your favorite CD's at a store that carries YOUR speakers you currently have, and tell them you want to hear YOUR speakers, first being driven by a receiver, and then by a slave amp that has at least 200 per at 8, hopefully 500 per at 8....the same reference level both times, picked by you, listening to certain parts of your favorite CD, now there it is.....

I'd rather you do these listeing comparisons under strict level matched conditions and DBT protocol. Anythihng else is just plain unreliable perceptions.

.....I know, what I know, what I know, and I'm seventh in line....


Well, you cannot know more than you do know, unless you expand real knowledge base

 

[mulester7]

I'd rather you do these listeing comparisons under strict level matched conditions and DBT protocol. Anythihng else is just plain unreliable perceptions.

....."yes, Ma'am, we're ready to order"...."I'll have a medium-rare rib-eye, and this guy with me wearing Army boots will have a hamburger pattie"...."plain".....

 

[mulester7]

.....straight from here.....
http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/default.asp


Damping

An audio system’s ability to stop playing a signal after it has ended. For instance, a sharp drum thump should not drag on for too long a time. If it does, the system is exhibiting poor damping meaning that it is not properly ending the sound production associated with the drum thump. Such a system is generally muddy and not well refined making individual musical nuances difficult to make out.

The damping factor relates to how well an amplifier is able to control the movement of a speaker driver, stopping its motion after the signal has stopped. If the driver motion is not halted, the driver will continue to move creating back-EMF (voltages sent back into the amplifier from the speaker’s voice coil moving in the magnetic field) and unpleasant, distorted sounds. ""Look for an amplifier with a high damping factor when you go to purchase audio equipment. The damping factor should be at least 300.""


Damping Factor

The ability of an amplifier to tightly control the movement of a speaker driver and stop its movement as the signal ends (see Damping).

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....straight from here.....
http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/default.asp


Damping

An audio system’s ability to stop playing a signal after it has ended. For instance, a sharp drum thump should not drag on for too long a time. If it does, the system is exhibiting poor damping meaning that it is not properly ending the sound production associated with the drum thump. Such a system is generally muddy and not well refined making individual musical nuances difficult to make out.

The damping factor relates to how well an amplifier is able to control the movement of a speaker driver, stopping its motion after the signal has stopped. If the driver motion is not halted, the driver will continue to move creating back-EMF (voltages sent back into the amplifier from the speaker’s voice coil moving in the magnetic field) and unpleasant, distorted sounds. ""Look for an amplifier with a high damping factor when you go to purchase audio equipment. The damping factor should be at least 300.""


Damping Factor

The ability of an amplifier to tightly control the movement of a speaker driver and stop its movement as the signal ends (see Damping).

Did you bother to read the thechnical explanation of Df, with data?

You are showing me nothing new above.
""Look for an amplifier with a high damping factor when you go to purchase audio equipment. The damping factor should be at least 300.""



Absolute hogwash.

And, if you want the technical explanation of Back EMF, not some definition someplace of dubious value, I have 4 more links if you care to expand you horizons as well:


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/9e25180f03c7f4f9?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=12


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/msg/9febaf18ece9484b?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=4

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/df02658d8fed441f?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=2

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/msg/71ca95c6df065c24?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=1

 

[WmAx]

.....straight from here.....
http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/default.asp


Damping Factor ....

Damping factor[really a useless parameter; output impedance specification is much more useful] means little in typical applications. It's also counter-productive to even talk about damping factor, since it's a specification derived from the variables: load impedance @ X frequency, output impedance and series resistance components(speaker wire, for example). For simplicity's sake, discuss output impedance[the 1st base parameter that is critical to calculating damping factor], a more direct way to address the situation. When the output impedance of the amplifier is raised, the damping factor lowers. The net effect of a high output impedance: frequency response non-linearity into a dynamic load. Basicly an unadjustable tone control. However, to have an appreciable effect upon frequency response on a normal speaker, the effective output impedance needs to be at least several ohms. In the real world, virtually all SS equipment has an output impedance well under 1 ohm, usually being but small fractions of an ohm(0.1, 0.2, etc.). In normal cases comparing SS amps, no significant effect will occur upon frequency response due to the damping factor. Of course, I'm sure you can find some so-called hi-end SS amps that have an extremely high output impedance[thus very low damping factor] if you look hard enough. These may have audible frequency response problems into normal speaker loads if the output impedance is several ohms.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

Damping factor[really a useless parameter; output impedance specification is much more useful] means little in typical applications. It's also counter-productive to even talk about damping factor, since it's a specification derived from the variables: load impedance @ X frequency, output impedance and series resistance components(speaker wire, for example). For simplicity's sake, discuss output impedance[the 1st base parameter that is critical to calculating damping factor], a more direct way to address the situation. When the output impedance of the amplifier is raised, the damping factor lowers. The net effect of a high output impedance: frequency response non-linearity into a dynamic load. Basicly an unadjustable tone control. However, to have an appreciable effect upon frequency response on a normal speaker, the effective output impedance needs to be at least several ohms. In the real world, virtually all SS equipment has an output impedance well under 1 ohm, usually being but small fractions of an ohm(0.1, 0.2, etc.). In normal cases comparing SS amps, no significant effect will occur upon frequency response due to the damping factor. Of course, I'm sure you can find some so-called hi-end SS amps that have an extremely high output impedance[thus very low damping factor] if you look hard enough. These may have audible frequency response problems into normal speaker loads if the output impedance is several ohms.

-Chris

Why is it so hard for audiophiles to understand this???
I provided a technical link for him and brings up a dubious link. I guess it is easier to swallow that snake oil than facts.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....."yes, Ma'am, we're ready to order"...."I'll have a medium-rare rib-eye, and this guy with me wearing Army boots will have a hamburger pattie"...."plain".....

Nex time try the analogy of choice and prime beef under DBT. OK???
Then I might follow your analogy more and can discuss it. After all, wine is tested under DBT as well, why not those two graded beef???

Thanks for not bringing in a car analogy. But this is as lame as that.

 

[MDS]

....."yes, Ma'am, we're ready to order"...."I'll have a medium-rare rib-eye, and this guy with me wearing Army boots will have a hamburger pattie"...."plain".....

I don't necessarily agree with the analogy but you have to admit, THAT was funny. Muelster, if I thought the 'reputation' system was of any value, I'd give you two green chiclets just for making me laugh.

 

[PENG]

.....PENG, you're not the first to take me wrong when I can only be represented by words on paper....I only meant "I would that you might ALSO go listen to a fair testing of AB comparison", that's all....the Army boots were all for Mtrycrafts, the guy who loves to irritate Mac, haha.....

And you love to irritate him! I, for one, have a lot of respect for the guy. He never walks away from a debate even when he is out numbered.

I deleted my previous post that should not have been posted in the first place. Thank you for clarifying your point though.

 

[mulester7]

Thanks for not bringing in a car analogy. But this is as lame as that.

.....Mtry, what's lame is about 90% of your attacks and arguments at this site....you defame and criticise bringing few answers....you compound and make mirky the already clouded waters without bringing any specific relief but on scant occassions....I couldn't care less how many articles and opinions of Richard Pierce you've read and taken as law concerning audio....why didn't the guys who originated audiovideo101.com call Richard and get his opinions?....the definitions for damping factor and damping, and the suggestions made for shopping for an amp, EXACTLY coincide with the experiences I've had for 40 years using these two ears as meters....Mtry, you need to read less, and listen more, trying new things.....

 

[mulester7]

I don't necessarily agree with the analogy but you have to admit, THAT was funny. Muelster, if I thought the 'reputation' system was of any value, I'd give you two green chiclets just for making me laugh.

.....MDS, it's a GOOD thing for us to laugh, imo, and you have graced me indeed with a compliment....laughs seem to be getting fewer and further apart this day and time.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....Mtry, what's lame is about 90% of your attacks and arguments at this site....you defame and criticise bringing few answers....you compound and make mirky the already clouded waters without bringing any specific relief but on scant occassions....I couldn't care less how many articles and opinions of Richard Pierce you've read and taken as law concerning audio....why didn't the guys who originated audiovideo101.com call Richard and get his opinions?....the definitions for damping factor and damping, and the suggestions made for shopping for an amp, EXACTLY coincide with the experiences I've had for 40 years using these two ears as meters....Mtry, you need to read less, and listen more, trying new things.....

You need to ask that web site where they got that. After all, you referenced it.

Oh, now we have the 40 year of experience as evidence of something? I had a few try to tell me all about their experience, not very useful as it was unreliable at best. To behold your ears as all reliable, well, good luck. Maybe you should do more reading, expand you experience with facts, not impressions of dubious nature.

 

[mulester7]

http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/dictionary.asp?dictionaryid=246&term=Headroom


Headroom

An amplifier’s ability to go beyond its rated average power (RMS or continuous power) for a short time in order to recreate loud or explosive audio signals that rise very quickly. In order to have high headroom (an ability to achieve loud peak levels without distorting), and amplifier must have a solid power supply with a good amount of reserve energy on which it can call.

The reserve power needed is similar to a car engine when passing another driver. A small car with a 100 horsepower engine may be able to travel at 60 miles per hour but will have difficulty speeding up to pass another car. A sports car with a 300 horsepower engine, however, will be able to quickly pull around the other car and accelerate to higher speeds with no difficulty. In such an example, the sports car has higher headroom than the economy car.

Headroom, also referred to as dynamic headroom, is measured in decibels (dB). An amplifier with a rating of 3 dB can double its output power for peaks. So, if an amp were rated at 100 watts RMS (continuous) power, its peak power rating would be 200 watts with a headroom of 3dB. If the headroom were increased by another 3dB, there would be another doubling of peak power (to 400 watts in this example).

Note that amplifiers with high headroom numbers are not necessarily better. In fact, most quality, high-end amps have headroom numbers of 3dB or lower. This is because those amplifiers have robust power supplies that can react to transients and sudden power demands within their continuous power envelope. The best amplifiers may have very low headroom figures of say 1dB or even less. Conversely, beware of amplifiers with very high headroom ratings, say 6dB. Such amps most likely use poor power supplies that only able to provide higher output levels for short periods of time

 

[mtrycrafts]

http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/dictionary.asp?dictionaryid=246&term=Headroom


Headroom

An amplifier’s ability to go beyond its rated average power (RMS or continuous power) for a short time in order to recreate loud or explosive audio signals that rise very quickly. In order to have high headroom (an ability to achieve loud peak levels without distorting), and amplifier must have a solid power supply with a good amount of reserve energy on which it can call.

The reserve power needed is similar to a car engine when passing another driver. A small car with a 100 horsepower engine may be able to travel at 60 miles per hour but will have difficulty speeding up to pass another car. A sports car with a 300 horsepower engine, however, will be able to quickly pull around the other car and accelerate to higher speeds with no difficulty. In such an example, the sports car has higher headroom than the economy car.

Headroom, also referred to as dynamic headroom, is measured in decibels (dB). An amplifier with a rating of 3 dB can double its output power for peaks. So, if an amp were rated at 100 watts RMS (continuous) power, its peak power rating would be 200 watts with a headroom of 3dB. If the headroom were increased by another 3dB, there would be another doubling of peak power (to 400 watts in this example).

Note that amplifiers with high headroom numbers are not necessarily better. In fact, most quality, high-end amps have headroom numbers of 3dB or lower. This is because those amplifiers have robust power supplies that can react to transients and sudden power demands within their continuous power envelope. The best amplifiers may have very low headroom figures of say 1dB or even less. Conversely, beware of amplifiers with very high headroom ratings, say 6dB. Such amps most likely use poor power supplies that only able to provide higher output levels for short periods of time

And you went back for more. The other wasn't enough?

Headroom
An amplifier’s ability to go beyond its rated average power (RMS or continuous power) for a short time in order to recreate loud or explosive audio signals that rise very quickly.

Well, it really doesn't have to rise quickly, just exceed the RMS poer rating of the component, for a short time.

Maybe you want to check the FTC definition and how it is measure for how long, to qualify for headroom measurement purposes. Remember that 'short time.' It is shorter than you think.


The reserve power needed is similar to a car engine when passing another driver.

Now why am I not surprised about another car anaolgy. A poor one at that. And don't confuse the passing time to the headroom rise time and duration, OK.


Headroom, also referred to as dynamic headroom,

That is all it is. If it wasn't, it would be measured under RMS, right.

Note that amplifiers with high headroom numbers are not necessarily better.

Why is that?

In fact, most quality, high-end amps have headroom numbers of 3dB or lower. This is because those amplifiers have robust power supplies that can react to transients and sudden power demands within their continuous power envelope.


I wonder where he dug this up from? Makes ZERO sense. If that power supply was robust enough, it would have a high headroom. But what would I know. Good slew rate gives you fast rise times. Of, yes, just like DF, lots of it is bs.

The best amplifiers may have very low headroom figures of say 1dB or even less. Conversely, beware of amplifiers with very high headroom ratings, say 6dB. Such amps most likely use poor power supplies that only able to provide higher output levels for short periods of time

I think he has this turned around. Firstly he said headroom is for short bursts. Now he is contradicting himself??? You cannot have it both ways.

You should get better sources.

 

[forumtroll]

I didn't read the whole thing...but 4-6dB is all the headroom you need.

B&K amps have 1.2 dB of headroom

 

[mulester7]

I think he has this turned around. Firstly he said headroom is for short bursts. Now he is contradicting himself??? You cannot have it both ways.

You should get better sources.

.....he was saying beware of amps that claim excessive amounts of peak power....you knew that....I'll seek better sources if you'll seek therapy.....