best subwoofer for under $500?

[shadyJ]

I stand corrected.

I was going on the actual measurement between the BIC PL-200 vs PB12NSD @ 32/40/50/63Hz:

SVS PB12-NSD: 105.9/106.5/107.3/108.0

BIC PL-200: 102.5/107.7/110.4/108.1

You can see that the $278 BIC PL-200 (which I incorrectly assumed was the HSU STF2) has more output @ 40/50/63Hz.

But, then ShadyJ pointed out that the PL-200's numbers were not limited to the 10% THD that the PB12NSD was limited to, so it's not a fair comparison.

So I was going on false assumptions.

It looks like you still have one misconception. Those numbers are from Josh Ricci, he doesn't limit his output numbers to 10% THD, only the reviews Ed Mullen did. Ricci's numbers for the PB12 are plain old max output, and PB12 simply will not be driven to produce distortion above 10% over 20 hz.

 

[pddufrene]

I've finally decided on a sub. Not by my liking but I guess sometimes u just have to compromise. I was gonna buy the outlaw which is what I wanted but. The wife said, quote she doesn't want that big ole thing sitting on the floor in her living room. Lol so I guess I'm gonna go ahead and purchase the PB1000 reason being is that it will fit perfectly under my entertainment system. If its not what I'm looking for I can always get a second one which I have enough space for. Hopefully I'm not disappointed.

 

[shadyJ]

You might think about getting the Klipsch RW-12d, which is $270 shipped right now from newegg when you enter the promotional code EMCXPWW76. Its a bit bigger than the PB1000 but not as big as the Outlaw. I think it will have a whole lot more output than the PB1000, and you can almost get two for the price of one PB1000. That is what I would do.

 

[3db]

You might think about getting the Klipsch RW-12d, which is $270 shipped right now from newegg when you enter the promotional code EMCXPWW76. Its a bit bigger than the PB1000 but not as big as the Outlaw. I think it will have a whole lot more output than the PB1000, and you can almost get two for the price of one PB1000. That is what I would do.

The Klipsch may play louder but it will not go as deep as the PB1000 nor is its frequency response as flat as the PB1000. If the OP is stuck with having only one sub, I would pick the PB1000 over the Klipsch

 

[rnatalli]

The Klipsch may play louder but it will not go as deep as the PB1000 nor is its frequency response as flat as the PB1000. If the OP is stuck with having only one sub, I would pick the PB1000 over the Klipsch

I would agree with this. I've lost count of how many times I've been disappointed with the SQ of budget subs that are only a step or two above one-note wonders. That said, I would stretch for the Rythmik which is $589 + $4 shipped to CONUS. HSU also has subs in this price range which are excellent.

 

[3db]

unfortunately for us Canucks, SVS is the only sub company that has a Canadian distrubutor in which we can order from. If we order from the US, there's duty that has to be paid. If its from teh US and built in China, we may even more duty.

 

[shadyJ]

The Klipsch may play louder but it will not go as deep as the PB1000 nor is its frequency response as flat as the PB1000. If the OP is stuck with having only one sub, I would pick the PB1000 over the Klipsch

I doubt the Klipsch FR is going to be significantly worse than the PB1000s. Plus, who cares about deeper extension if the sub doesn't have the output to back it up. The Klipsch will provide far more palpable bass at a much lower price point. I think a single RW-12d could stomp on a PB1000. When movie night rolls around it will be a lot more fun. Along those lines, the OP ought to consider the Premier Acoustic PA-150, it has tremendous mid bass output. The FR isn't very flat, but it will have many times the output of the PB1000.

 

[Steve81]

Plus, who cares about deeper extension if the sub doesn't have the output to back it up. The Klipsch will provide far more palpable bass at a much lower price point.

Brent Butterworth's testing of the PB1000 might indicate otherwise.
Review: SVS PB-1000 subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine

It's apparently not as linear at the limits as most SVS subs measured by Josh here, but those numbers don't look half bad next to the much larger and costlier Hsu VTF15H, particularly in the 40-63Hz band.
Test Report: Hsu Research VTF-15H Subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine

 

[shadyJ]

Brent Butterworth's testing of the PB1000 might indicate otherwise.
Review: SVS PB-1000 subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine

It's apparently not as linear at the limits as most SVS subs measured by Josh here, but those numbers don't look half bad next to the much larger and costlier Hsu VTF15H, particularly in the 40-63Hz band.
Test Report: Hsu Research VTF-15H Subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine

OMG, Lol, you are not going to take those results seriously! To say those measurements are problematic is an understatement. That is basically saying that the PB1000 is equal to the PB12 Plus. Butterworth's own measurements has it outperforming the PB12 NSD! I'll take SVS's word that the PB1000's performance profile is similar to the NSD except 3 dB down, that makes a lot more sense. The VTF15h is going to have waaay more output than a PB1000.

 

[3db]

I doubt the Klipsch FR is going to be significantly worse than the PB1000s. Plus, who cares about deeper extension if the sub doesn't have the output to back it up. The Klipsch will provide far more palpable bass at a much lower price point. I think a single RW-12d could stomp on a PB1000. When movie night rolls around it will be a lot more fun. Along those lines, the OP ought to consider the Premier Acoustic PA-150, it has tremendous mid bass output. The FR isn't very flat, but it will have many times the output of the PB1000.

With a peaky midband response, the Klipsch will sound like a one note boomer and there will be little dissemination of bass frequencies. According to SVS, I can expect this for my room.....

In that size room, expect well over 100 dB output at 20 Hz.

The PB-1000 is rated for 103 dB RMS @ 20 Hz via CEA-2010 outdoors at 2 meters ground plane.

Going from ground plane to 1/8th space with two near field boundaries will in theory add 6 dB per boundary, but let's be conservative and call it 4 dB per boundary.

The room will also exhibit at least some room gain (a low-end augmentation of the bass due to conversion from a modal response to a pressure response) and in that size space a conservative estimate would be 4 dB of room gain at 20 Hz.

 

[Steve81]

OMG, Lol, you are not going to take those results seriously!

I'm not going to compare them to Josh's data, but I've got no problem comparing one S&V data set to another. Brent certainly didn't have a big problem making the comparison either in reading his writeup.

That is basically saying that the PB1000 is equal to the PB12 Plus...The VTF15h is going to have waaay more output than a PB1000.

The PB1000 is significantly outperformed by the big Hsu down low. That's not liable to be the case with the bigger, costlier PB12+.

Butterworth's own measurements has it outperforming the PB12 NSD!

Looking at raw output alone, yes; of course, the numbers for the PB12 look very odd indeed, particularly the 5dB drop going from 50Hz to 63Hz.
Review: SVS PB12-NSD Subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine

I'll take SVS's word that the PB1000's performance profile is similar to the NSD except 3 dB down, that makes a lot more sense.

Seems rather convenient to ditch the data when it doesn't agree with your positions, no?

 

[shadyJ]

With a peaky midband response, the Klipsch will sound like a one note boomer and there will be little dissemination of bass frequencies. According to SVS, I can expect this for my room.....

In that size room, expect well over 100 dB output at 20 Hz.

The PB-1000 is rated for 103 dB RMS @ 20 Hz via CEA-2010 outdoors at 2 meters ground plane.

Going from ground plane to 1/8th space with two near field boundaries will in theory add 6 dB per boundary, but let's be conservative and call it 4 dB per boundary.

The room will also exhibit at least some room gain (a low-end augmentation of the bass due to conversion from a modal response to a pressure response) and in that size space a conservative estimate would be 4 dB of room gain at 20 Hz.

Where are you getting that the PB1000 is doing 103 dB RMS at 20 hz on 2 m? That is what the PB12 NSD does according to the audioholics review. Another thing is, where do you see the RW-12d has a peaky mid band frequency reponse? None of the FR charts I have seen for it show that- granted, all of the charts I know about for it are in-room.

 

[Steve81]

Where are you getting that the PB1000 is doing 103 dB RMS at 20 hz on 2 m?

I have seen that number floated by SVS before, but they also figure the PB12-NSD should have delivered better performance than seen in Josh's bench testing (or the S&V test).

SV Sound PB-12NSD Subwoofer Preview | Audioholics

 

[markw]

Well, to some people big boobs are the most important attribute in a woman while style and refinement take a back seat. While this might be a fun diversion for a weekend or so, most people would find it inadequate in the long run.

 

[shadyJ]

I'm not going to compare them to Josh's data, but I've got no problem comparing one S&V data set to another. Brent certainly didn't have a big problem making the comparison either in reading his writeup.


The PB1000 is significantly outperformed by the big Hsu down low. That's not liable to be the case with the bigger, costlier PB12+.


Looking at raw output alone, yes; of course, the numbers for the PB12 look very odd indeed, particularly the 5dB drop going from 50Hz to 63Hz.
Review: SVS PB12-NSD Subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine


Seems rather convenient to ditch the data when it doesn't agree with your positions, no?

Steve, who are you going to believe, SVS or S&V with all of their contradictory measurements? Look how closely the PB1000 trails the PC13 Ultra on S&V, are you really going to put your trust in those scores? Because if so, there is no reason to ever get a sub other than the PB1000, it is a gigantic astounding value unsurpassed with the greatest $/dB ratio of all time, either that or all of SVS's other subs are just awful and terrible. However I think it's more likely the case that there is some inconsistencies in S&V's testing methods.

 

[shadyJ]

I have seen that number floated by SVS before, but they also figure the PB12-NSD should have delivered better performance than seen in Josh's bench testing (or the S&V test).

SV Sound PB-12NSD Subwoofer Preview | Audioholics

I don't know what their beef is, the PB12 NSD actually has very good 20 hz measurements. I am not a fan of it's mid and upper bass output, but it's deep bass is excellent, especially when you take distortion into consideration.

 

[shadyJ]

Well, to some people big boobs are the most important attribute in a woman while ....

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly; I am a butt man myself.

 

[markw]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly; I am a butt man myself.

Now that, I cannot argue with.

 

[Steve81]

I don't know what their beef is, the PB12 NSD actually has very good 20 hz measurements. I am not a fan of it's mid and upper bass output, but it's deep bass is excellent, especially when you take distortion into consideration.

There wasn't any beef? Those figures were provided by Ed prior to Josh's bench test. There wasn't any flap over the discrepancy AFAIK.

 

[Steve81]

Look how closely the PB1000 trails the PC13 Ultra on S&V, are you really going to put your trust in those scores?

Not exactly, but I can understand how the numbers were arrived at. Measuring a 4 foot tall cylinder sub on its side isn't exactly going to yield apples to apples results with a sub like the PB1000 or VTF15. It's not out of the realm of possibility that if a PB13U had been measured, the results would be more in line with what you'd expect.

Steve, who are you going to believe, SVS or S&V with all of their contradictory measurements?

Both to some extent. As far as I'm aware, the PB12-NSD's advantage over the PB1000 lays primarily in the 20-32Hz band; interestingly enough, the S&V numbers from 20-32Hz are in line with what I'd expect based on SVS' figures. With respect to the 40-63Hz segment, who knows, maybe SVS decided to modify their limiters a bit.

To address the original question a bit more directly though, I'd just assume see Josh measure the thing as his testing is more comprehensive in any case. However, data is data. Barring new data or someone proving Brent's data is totally worthless, it's what we've got to work with.