Yamaha Owners’ Thread (AVR, Pre-pro, Amp)

[Bookmark]

Worry when you get to this point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why do you think the high end Denon, such as the $9000-$3000 50-120 W (the higher watt the cheaper) 50-65 lbs integrated amps are only marketed in the far East? Good thing we can at least still buy the Marantz high end integrated here in NA, thanks to the hearsay about their warm golden sound carried over from 20-40 years ago before they even have HDAMs, probably not for long though..

I never thought about it.

Also, the population of North America is about 600,000,00, while the population of Asia is about 4.5 BILLION.

I wonder what percentage of the population (4.5 billion vs 0.6 billion) buys separates?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Worry when you get to this point.

Damn, that's nuts.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Ah, the Far East audiophiles.

The enemy of American EE's. (especially over on that other forum, H2 )

 

[PENG]

Regarding layout for components such as mid-range processors & integrated amplifiers here the key design circuits are typically carried over from the AVRs.
For their very high-end separates including processors & power amplifiers they have their own unique circuit design/tooling as their significantly higher cost/market sell price structure gives them enough $ margin to support these. Since Yamaha controls the design/production for virtually all their AV product categories (except optical media players), they are the best for achieving scales of economy for design, internal component pricing, common use of firmware.

That's what I noticed while scanning a few schematics. To get the non AVR derived integrated that are free from those shared parts (such as the volume control ICs), one has to get pass the A-S801, or even the S1100, best to avoid models that have build in DAC.

 

[highfigh]

Yamaha is structured very different from the surviving AVR brands...

• Yamaha AVRs are built in Yamaha owned factories
• Yamaha designs their own AVRs
• Yamaha has significant buying power for crucial internal electronic components
• Yamaha is the only AVR brand that maintains total control/ownership over their AVRs, from design to production to sales

Bottom line...
Due to various economic and political conditions, all of the key AVR competition to Yamaha including Onkyo/Integra, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, Denon, Marantz had at 1-time a strong sales & marketing base but now have changed equity/ownership due to hitting dire financial straits. Since Yamaha has an extensive product demand in all global markets for all of its CE products including consumer & pro, this provides substantial unit volume that gives them significant leverage in buying internal electronic components. As buying internal electronic components unit volume is the key, allowing Yamaha to enjoy certain, significant buying advantages. For example, this is one of the reasons Denon & Marantz through control by United Audio now have many common components and modules. Plus their products are now built in the same factories some owned by D&M in Japan while their major high sales volume units are out-sourced & built by a single factory in Vietnam (Inkel Corp).

Just my $0.02...

Buying in high volume is one key, transportation is another. Sending all components to only a few plants costs far less than sourcing them from the same places and shipping all over Asia would cost far more.

It's Sound United, LLC, not United Audio- that was a brand in the '80s and into the '90s.

WRT your list of AVR vs components- the cost to ship heavy separates to the US is one of the reasons they aren't as popular here- the cost to ship adds nothing to performance, so that can be a deal breaker. I need to ship a preamp to California and at 25 lb, it will cost over $58 because I don't ship in high enough volume to get the discounts. The fact that these preamps/pre/pros don't have the inputs they need (IMO) has apparently been lost on the manufacturers. OTOH, they don't exist to cater to my wants.

While it makes financial sense for a person building a two channel system to buy an AVR, the complexity of the innards and their sensitivity to voltage spikes makes it a bit riskier to the longevity of the system or, at least, that part of it. I think preamps and integrated amps need more optical and digital coax inputs- it just makes sense.

Inkel has been around for a long time- first time I heard of them was in the '80s, when one of our reps came in to offer the Sherwood line, which had been resurrected and was being constructed by Inkel, That stuff worked pretty well, but the control shafts were plastic and would occasionally break off. I don't remember any other reliability issues.

 

[PENG]

I never thought about it.

Also, the population of North America is about 600,000,00, while the population of Asia is about 4.5 BILLION.

I wonder what percentage of the population (4.5 billion vs 0.6 billion) buys separates?

Good point, though they are not as rich on average. They also spent less on cottages (can't afford anyway), boats, planes etc.

 

[Reckel]

I just got two vtf3 mk5s few weeks ago n they’re awesome but I would assume your saying to just turn the auto eq off? I’m planning on getting a mic and rew here shortly but have never used it. I’m guessing it’s kinda difficult to use at first

 

[highfigh]

I never thought about it.

Also, the population of North America is about 600,000,00, while the population of Asia is about 4.5 BILLION.

I wonder what percentage of the population (4.5 billion vs 0.6 billion) buys separates?

The population of Asia may be 4.5 Billion, but only a small percentage has enough money to even think about buying this stuff.

 

[M Code]

Wow. In Asia (I assume mainly Japan) they mainly buy separates (85%),which is the total opposite of North America. I also assume that separates in Asia still cost more than AVR.

So most people in Asia are audiophiles or enthusiasts? Whereas most people in the North America don't even know what Dolby Digital/DTS or what a pre-pro is (forget about Atmos/DTSX or DSU/NeuralX)?

The market in Asia is mostly separate components, there is the very high-end segment mainly in Japan but now slowly growing in China due to the an increasing number of upper-class rich guys.. But the main reasons are smaller houses/apartments and a simple 2-channel system works just fine, tuner sales exist but are low in numbers compared to the sale of integrated amplifiers...

Just my $0.02...

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Yamaha A-S3000 Natural Sound Integrated Amplifier
$6999.99

'Natural Sound'

 

[PENG]

I think preamps and integrated amps need more optical and digital coax inputs- it just makes sense.

Agreed, but I suspect the audiophiles won't like the side effects. Except for the higher end and relatively expensive products, integrated amps that come with digital I/Os and DACs, will likely share some of the same ICs found in AVRs.

According to Dr. Rich,
https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/
"A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences."

I owned that $3000 Marantz, ouch! It does sound great, as good as my AVR-X4400H so I think Dr.Rich worries too much, probably an audiophile with a PhD. That same LSI chip is used in the AV8802A too. The Yamaha integrated amps that have build in DACs and digital inputs do use quite a few ICs including volume control chips found in AVRs. Again, I think that's okay, if it helps lower the cost without degrading sound quality.

 

[PENG]

Yamaha A-S3000 Natural Sound Integrated Amplifier
$6999.99

'Natural Sound'

It has the same sort of volume control IC chip found in D&M AVRs, but at least it uses the 2 channel version vs the 8 channel version in the AVRs. It also has a 100 pin Renasas LSI chip in it. Great specs though, I am sure it will sound great too, and should be quite powerful.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

It has the same sort of volume control IC chip found in D&M AVRs, but at least it uses the 2 channel version vs the 8 channel version in the AVRs. It also has a 100 pin Renasas LSI chip in it. Great specs though, I am sure it will sound great too, and should be quite powerful.

Great! For that low price, I'll take two.

 

[PENG]

Great! For that low price, I'll take two.

That would be $36,232.6 if you buy from Amazon.ca
https://www.amazon.ca/Yamaha-s3000-High-Performance-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B00XHQYMGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542731613&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+a-s3000

 

[highfigh]

Agreed, but I suspect the audiophiles won't like the side effects. Except for the higher end and relatively expensive products, integrated amps that come with digital I/Os and DACs, will likely share some of the same ICs found in AVRs.

According to Dr. Rich,
https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/
"A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences."

I owned that $3000 Marantz, ouch! It does sound great, as good as my AVR-X4400H so I think Dr.Rich worries too much, probably an audiophile with a PhD. That same LSI chip is used in the AV8802A too. The Yamaha integrated amps that have build in DACs and digital inputs do use quite a few ICs including volume control chips found in AVRs. Again, I think that's okay, if it helps lower the cost without degrading sound quality.

A quote that is attributed to Albert Einstein goes "A thing should be made as simply as possible and no simpler".

If it works well enough, why bother using something that's 'more special', other than for marketing purposes? We saw the problems of a certain preamp's volume control and now, that model has been replaced by one with a different control, as well as some added inputs and features. The new one is more expensive, but if the problem is gone and the additions are useful, it's no longer going to be a problem. Could it have been done for less money? I don't know, but I can bet that at least one of the new features came with the new control (preset volume level at power up). I chose the preamp with the problem, based on its complement of inputs/outputs, DAC and capabilities, as well as price/performance and never noticed an audible problem unless the volume control was used.

I have reached the point of no longer wanting to obsess about things like this. At some point, "it's good enough" and I want to enjoy the music, not listen for flaws. At this time, I'm using a Yamaha WXC-50 MusicCast piece as my preamp since I don't have a surround system and it sounds very good. I don't have anything to do an easy A:B comparison, so I'm not going to say it's better or worse than others, but I will say that I think the sound quality is very good. I still think the Parasound A23 sounds better than any AVR I have heard and my initial impression came after moving the connections from an AVR-2313CI in the same listening session, so the time gap wasn't significant. I used the same songs and the Parasound was more dynamic and the low end is more solid. I would attribute those to the power supply, as much as anything.

If a DAC is very good and it's not too expensive, why not use it in a wide variety of models?

 

[highfigh]

It has the same sort of volume control IC chip found in D&M AVRs, but at least it uses the 2 channel version vs the 8 channel version in the AVRs. It also has a 100 pin Renasas LSI chip in it. Great specs though, I am sure it will sound great too, and should be quite powerful.

I have a hard time thinking that manufacturers who want to sell an $8000 (original price) integrated amp will only have so few inputs- dyed in the wool audiophiles tend to have more source devices than this and many use open reel, phono, high end cassette or some other device, as well as newer digital sources. Granted, they might not want to say "Our DAC is just as good as yours", but they could offer something at that price which would compete. I do like the fact that they show Dynamic Power into 8/6/4/2 Ohms. Phono inputs are extremely quiet, too.

 

[highfigh]

That would be $36,232.6 if you buy from Amazon.ca
https://www.amazon.ca/Yamaha-s3000-High-Performance-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B00XHQYMGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542731613&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+a-s3000

But it's really good!

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

That would be $36,232.6 if you buy from Amazon.ca
https://www.amazon.ca/Yamaha-s3000-High-Performance-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B00XHQYMGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542731613&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+a-s3000

Good grief. Be careful what you buy on amazon.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

A quote that is attributed to Albert Einstein goes "A thing should be made as simply as possible and no simpler".

If it works well enough, why bother using something that's 'more special', other than for marketing purposes? We saw the problems of a certain preamp's volume control and now, that model has been replaced by one with a different control, as well as some added inputs and features. The new one is more expensive, but if the problem is gone and the additions are useful, it's no longer going to be a problem. Could it have been done for less money? I don't know, but I can bet that at least one of the new features came with the new control (preset volume level at power up). I chose the preamp with the problem, based on its complement of inputs/outputs, DAC and capabilities, as well as price/performance and never noticed an audible problem unless the volume control was used.

I have reached the point of no longer wanting to obsess about things like this. At some point, "it's good enough" and I want to enjoy the music, not listen for flaws. At this time, I'm using a Yamaha WXC-50 MusicCast piece as my preamp since I don't have a surround system and it sounds very good. I don't have anything to do an easy A:B comparison, so I'm not going to say it's better or worse than others, but I will say that I think the sound quality is very good. I still think the Parasound A23 sounds better than any AVR I have heard and my initial impression came after moving the connections from an AVR-2313CI in the same listening session, so the time gap wasn't significant. I used the same songs and the Parasound was more dynamic and the low end is more solid. I would attribute those to the power supply, as much as anything.

If a DAC is very good and it's not too expensive, why not use it in a wide variety of models?

That A23 looks like a nice power amp. The only thing that bothers me is the internal heat sinks. I'd rather have them placed on the outside of the enclosure to keep the heat out the internal space. That provides better longevity of other electronic parts.