Yamaha Owners’ Thread (AVR, Pre-pro, Amp)

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now it's there I can't see them removing it. It looks cool if nothing else

Obviously with the 5200 it came in with the AI mode, but other models have this too, so the 3080 would be a fair bet. I'm surprised no one had mentioned it before, unless I missed it.

Cool for guys who want to manually EQ the speakers.

@TechHDS (Mike) might be getting a 3080. I don't know if he uses manual EQ, though.

 

[Bookmark]

Well hopefully it's there on the 3080, if only to give another set options. Maybe, if it is, Mike can give us some info on the revised edit for the EQ. Showing the overall curve has been sadly missing which I think the Denon/Marantz app has had for a while.

I didn't want to lift the pict, which is why I put the thread link I couldn't find any on Google or the Yamaha site. You would think they would be promoting this

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I haven't heard much about the new Yamaha Artificial Intelligent Dialogue Lift feature. So I want to post this comment here from another thread regarding the Yamaha CX-A5200:

I need to elaborate a bit more on the Yamaha cx-5200 AI surround function and dialog lift.
Of my many processors that I have own over the years. Including my last one which was Integra 80.3 with XT32. It is the first time I was not hunting around for the remote to track the dialog up and down with the center gain or the master volume. The AI does works as advertised with the movies I watched.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@ppiamp wrote:

Hello everyone,

My first post at Audioholics but I have been at this hobby for 41 years

I was shopping for a new processor to replace my trusty Integra 80.3 and could not find any reviews of these two processors.

So I thought I share my first impressions after living with them for two weeks.

Equipment: Currently running a 5.3 system.

TV: LG 86UK6570aua
Processor: Yamaha cx-a5200
Amplifiers: 4 Crown XLS 2500
Speakers: Klipsch LaScala IIs, center: RC-64II, Rear S. RB-81
Subwoofers: Two PSA V1811, Earthquake MK-V15
Game: Xbox 1s
CD-DVD bluray: Denon 2500BTCI
Media: Apple TV 4k

Yamaha CX-A5200:

Build quality is fantastic. 33 lbs for a preamp...it is a Beast. Better circuit layout IMO and a torrid transformer.

BT transmission with headphones and rear surround speakers.

Cleaner and quieter sound...with more dynamics than the 7705.

Envelopment with movies and music was deeper. The steering in this processor is just excellent.
It just sounded better with both two channel and movies.

The new AI surround feature works excellent with movies.

I preferred the AI on with movies, off with music.

Slightly sharper picture quality than the 7705...but very close.

I preferred Yamaha new remote. Touch feel indentations makes it so I do not even need to look at the remote. Weight in the hand is better.

YPAO provided consistent measurements in my room above 31hz. Audyssey seemed to be having a tough time with my LaScalas. It was good but not great. However, XT32 did nail the sub calibration perfectly..

The Yamaha has virtual presence speakers you can turn on and off...Front and Back. In my setup I cannot cut out the ceiling for speakers. That leaves me with bounce house speaker option for atmos speakers or use the virtual speakers. Currently I like what I hear using the virtual but I need more time with them.

Marantz AV7705

Please note as a disclaimer I did not use the new Audyssey app as I had a finite time limit I was up against.

Audyssey is easier to setup. You can be up and running in 10 minutes with this processor. Initially Audyssey did a better at sub eq than the YPAO RSC.

With the Yamaha you need to settle in for a day or two of tweaking. You can get much better sound in the end IMO.

But you do work for it. I did go in manually with the Yamaha PEQ and matched the Audysses sub calibration in the end. I used a test disc and found out I had a big peak at 50hz...YPAO did minor correction but missed it IMO. Again Audyssey nailed it. If your are going to run the acoustic software correction and never look at settings again. Hit the easy button and get the 7705.

This 7705 is noise sensitive. Keep your wifi away from this. It does not like RF at all and I was using full XLR wiring throughout.

I could never get it to quiet down fully. Please do keep in mind I am running highly efficient Klipsch LaScala IIs. YMMV

The Yamaha was dead quiet from the moment I plug it in.

The Marantz has the both IMAX and Auro3D certification. While Yamaha does has their equivalent called HD3 which sounded great....This may be important to you.

The Marantz locked on to HDMI signals about 2 seconds quicker than the Yamaha. I think Yam has improved it over its predecessor, the cx-a5100, but the Marantz still is faster.

Neither one had any video drop out or issues in my system.

The 7705 is 500 dollars cheaper, or less on the street price. However, it could make the difference to you. For me the Yamaha was worth the extra money.

Conclusion:

Overall the Yamaha CX-a5200 was the clear winner. At least in my system. Particularly with sound. But I also liked the Yamaha video processing slightly better.... I could of lived with the AV7705 and been happy IF I never heard the CX-a5200. But once I heard the 5200 I could not go back to the 7705. Logically, I think the AV8805 would be an interesting comparison also as it represents each companies flagship processor. But with AV8805 listing at 4500 retail, price becomes a factor quickly.
While I have demo'd the Marantz av8802a awhile back. I think the cx-a5200 build quality is equivalent. As long as you do not mind the Yamaha method of doing things, the cx-a5200 is one of the best processors out there.

 

[3db]

To MCODE,

Would you know if Yamaha uses the same components and layout in their TOTL AVRs, integrated amps, and power amps? I can't help but think that Yamaha or any other manufacturer for that reason wouldnt want to harness the economy of scales used in building their AVRs. It would also be interesting to know how their AVR sales stack up against their intergrated and seperates ?

 

[PENG]

To MCODE,

Would you know if Yamaha uses the same components and layout in their TOTL AVRs, integrated amps, and power amps? I can't help but think that Yamaha or any other manufacturer for that reason wouldnt want to harness the economy of scales used in building their AVRs. It would also be interesting to know how their AVR sales stack up against their intergrated and seperates ?

While waiting for M code, I can tell you that I know for a fact that D&M does use a lot of the same components/parts and circuitry in their Marantz AVP and Denon/Marantz AVR, and my educated guess is that Yamaha would have done something similar. To what extent I don't know but as per ADTG's term, "AVR based.." for sure. Obviously, without the power amp section, AVPs should in general have better shielding schemes, and the layout will be quite different, though if you look at some past bench test data, it didn't seem to always make a measurable difference and even when it did, it would be like comparing 0.005 and 0.01% THD.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@M Code would know a lot more, but I also think that Yamaha would use most of the same parts as the flagship AVR (RX-A3080) for their pre-pro and integrated amps.

 

[M Code]

Yamaha is structured very different from the surviving AVR brands...

• Yamaha AVRs are built in Yamaha owned factories
• Yamaha designs their own AVRs
• Yamaha has significant buying power for crucial internal electronic components
• Yamaha is the only AVR brand that maintains total control/ownership over their AVRs, from design to production to sales

Bottom line...
Due to various economic and political conditions, all of the key AVR competition to Yamaha including Onkyo/Integra, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, Denon, Marantz had at 1-time a strong sales & marketing base but now have changed equity/ownership due to hitting dire financial straits. Since Yamaha has an extensive product demand in all global markets for all of its CE products including consumer & pro, this provides substantial unit volume that gives them significant leverage in buying internal electronic components. As buying internal electronic components unit volume is the key, allowing Yamaha to enjoy certain, significant buying advantages. For example, this is one of the reasons Denon & Marantz through control by United Audio now have many common components and modules. Plus their products are now built in the same factories some owned by D&M in Japan while their major high sales volume units are out-sourced & built by a single factory in Vietnam (Inkel Corp).

Just my $0.02...

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Yamaha is structured very different from the surviving AVR brands...

• Yamaha AVRs are built in Yamaha owned factories
• Yamaha designs their own AVRs
• Yamaha has significant buying power for crucial internal electronic components
• Yamaha is the only AVR brand that maintains total control/ownership over their AVRs, from design to production to sales

Bottom line...
Due to various economic and political conditions, all of the key AVR competition to Yamaha including Onkyo/Integra, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, Denon, Marantz had at 1-time a strong sales & marketing base but now have changed equity/ownership due to hitting dire financial straits. Since Yamaha has an extensive product demand in all global markets for all of its CE products including consumer & pro, this provides substantial unit volume that gives them significant leverage in buying internal electronic components. As buying internal electronic components unit volume is the key, allowing Yamaha to enjoy certain, significant buying advantages. For example, this is one of the reasons Denon & Marantz through control by United Audio now have many common components and modules. Plus their products are now built in the same factories some owned by D&M in Japan while their major high sales volume units are out-sourced & built by a single factory in Vietnam (Inkel Corp).

Just my $0.02...

Interesting. I wonder how this compares to overall reliability over time between all the brands.

 

[M Code]

Interesting. I wonder how this compares to overall reliability over time between all the brands.

Over the last several years, in the AVR category Yamaha has been #1 in reliability. For the previously mentioned reasons, plus their AVRs have the HDMI/HDCP/CEC certification which minimizes the treaded HDMI handshake issues while the other brands self-certify. Also whenever a CE product is outsourced, the typical culture/behavior especially in China is to grind down the costs from the sub-contractors who frequently cut quality corners for materials & internal components for mass production units.

Just my $0.02...

 

[3db]

Thanks MCode but you never really answered my question.

 

[M Code]

To MCODE,

Would you know if Yamaha uses the same components and layout in their TOTL AVRs, integrated amps, and power amps? I can't help but think that Yamaha or any other manufacturer for that reason wouldnt want to harness the economy of scales used in building their AVRs.

Yes, certain basic common components such CPUs, audio DSPs, DACs, video, connectivity processors are used in AVRs and separate components. Regarding layout this is more complex, AVRs are more platform-based having common audio, video, controller, connectivity processors and common software with each level having unique PCBs depending upon price/power class. Regarding layout for components such as mid-range processors & integrated amplifiers here the key design circuits are typically carried over from the AVRs.
For their very high-end separates including processors & power amplifiers they have their own unique circuit design/tooling as their significantly higher cost/market sell price structure gives them enough $ margin to support these. Since Yamaha controls the design/production for virtually all their AV product categories (except optical media players), they are the best for achieving scales of economy for design, internal component pricing, common use of firmware.

It would also be interesting to know how their AVR sales stack up against their intergrated and seperates ?

Sales of AVRs vs. components vary depending upon geographic location:

• North America, AVRs are 85% vs. 15% are components
• Europe, AVRs are 65% vs. 35% are components
• Asia, AVRs are 15% vs. 85% are components

Just my $0.02...

 

[3db]

Yes, certain basic common components such CPUs, audio DSPs, DACs, video, connectivity processors are used in AVRs and separate components. Regarding layout this is more complex, AVRs are more platform-based having common audio, video, controller, connectivity processors and common software with each level having unique PCBs depending upon price/power class. Regarding layout for components such as mid-range processors & integrated amplifiers here the key design circuits are typically carried over from the AVRs.
For their very high-end separates including processors & power amplifiers they have their own unique circuit design/tooling as their significantly higher cost/market sell price structure gives them enough $ margin to support these. Since Yamaha controls the design/production for virtually all their AV product categories (except optical media players), they are the best for achieving scales of economy for design, internal component pricing, common use of firmware.


Sales of AVRs vs. components vary depending upon geographic location:

• North America, AVRs are 85% vs. 15% are components
• Europe, AVRs are 65% vs. 35% are components
• Asia, AVRs are 15% vs. 85% are components

Just my $0.02...

Thankyou

 

[Reckel]

I have a Yamaha a860 and was wondering if someone could explain exactly how to use/set the manual eq for speakers and sub. Is it just a trial and error thing? Just don’t quite understand where to set everything

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sales of AVRs vs. components vary depending upon geographic location:

• North America, AVRs are 85% vs. 15% are components
• Europe, AVRs are 65% vs. 35% are components
• Asia, AVRs are 15% vs. 85% are components

Wow. In Asia (I assume mainly Japan) they mainly buy separates (85%),which is the total opposite of North America. I also assume that separates in Asia still cost more than AVR.

So most people in Asia are audiophiles or enthusiasts? Whereas most people in the North America don't even know what Dolby Digital/DTS or what a pre-pro is (forget about Atmos/DTSX or DSU/NeuralX)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a Yamaha a860 and was wondering if someone could explain exactly how to use/set the manual eq for speakers and sub. Is it just a trial and error thing? Just don’t quite understand where to set everything

My answer is to NOT use any kind of EQ!

Why do you feel the need to use the EQ?

If you want use the manual EQ, you should also measure the frequency response in your room with a microphone and software.

Otherwise, you are doing it blindly. So yeah, it's trial and error.

Boosting/increasing certain frequencies (especially treble) may also be detrimental to the health of your speakers (especially tweeter) as it may increase the risk of distortion and amp clipping.

I would estimate that over 90% of the guys here on Audioholics would advice against blind trial-and-error manual EQ.

And some of us (@TLS Guy and myself) don't even recommend using any kind of EQ, manual or automatic, because we think it introduces more distortion and harm than good.

 

[snakeeyes]

The 860 lacks separate sub adjustments like the 2000 and 3000 and 5000 series but not sure how useful that is. My 2060 is only managing one Rythmik LVX12 sub in my theater room. I may upgrade subs in a couple years or simply add a 2nd Rythmik.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The 860 lacks separate sub adjustments like the 2000 and 3000 and 5000 series but not sure how useful that is. My 2060 is only managing one Rythmik LVX12 sub in my theater room. I may upgrade subs in a couple years or simply add a 2nd Rythmik.

I vote for a adding second sub.

Atmos 5.2.4 is all good.

 

[snakeeyes]

I vote for a adding second sub.

Atmos 5.2.4 is all good.

Ya it’s difficult getting one sub to cover the entire room but it’s dialed in good right now. Adding a 2nd sub sounds good but I may upset my current nirvana.

 

[PENG]

Wow. In Asia (I assume mainly Japan) they mainly buy separates (85%),which is the total opposite of North America. I also assume that separates in Asia still cost more than AVR.

So most people in Asia are audiophiles or enthusiasts? Whereas most people in the North America don't even know what Dolby Digital/DTS or what a pre-pro is (forget about Atmos/DTSX or DSU/NeuralX)?

Why do you think the high end Denon, such as the $9000-$3000 50-120 W (the higher watt the cheaper) 50-65 lbs integrated amps are only marketed in the far East? Good thing we can at least still buy the Marantz high end integrated here in NA, thanks to the hearsay about their warm golden sound carried over from 20-40 years ago before they even have HDAMs, probably not for long though..