Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
I will run YPAO now I understand that that sound distance isn’t straight line distance. I have a question about the crossover on subs, should I let the subs to play full range (27-300) while doing the calibration and let the amp manage the crossover? Or manually setting the proper front speakers/ subs crossover is the way to do it ?
I always recommend starting with the AVR's room correction. Adjust from there as necessary, including turning it off if it doesn't work well.
Set your subs to neutral: Phase should be a 0º, LPF should be set to Bypass/Off/Maximum, Gain should start around 50% with the program telling you to adjust if necessary. (You never want you subs to have AVR trims maxed out, or have the subs be the quietest Speakers... Ideally Sub trim should be around -7dB as a rule of thumb.)

(My experience with Audyssey and the XT32 App has been very positive.)
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
I will run YPAO now I understand that that sound distance isn’t straight line distance. I have a question about the crossover on subs, should I let the subs to play full range (27-300) while doing the calibration and let the amp manage the crossover? Or manually setting the proper front speakers/ subs crossover is the way to do it ?
That depends on your room and REW is very helpful here. I spent quite some time using REW and still there are several issues in my room I don't understand and unsure how to address. In any case, I set my crossover to 100Hz and that works well for me for now at least.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, I usually have to go behind Audyssey and set my speakers to small and adjust the crossover. Seems like the manufacturers don't like telling folks their speakers are small for whatever reason, but I much prefer letting the avr handle crossover duties for a nice, smooth transition. 80 hz is generally a good crossover point but depending on room interactions and speakers a little higher or lower might work out better.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah, I usually have to go behind Audyssey and set my speakers to small and adjust the crossover. Seems like the manufacturers don't like telling folks their speakers are small for whatever reason, but I much prefer letting the avr handle crossover duties for a nice, smooth transition. 80 hz is generally a good crossover point but depending on room interactions and speakers a little higher or lower might work out better.
Asking for a friend: Is this an unseemly subwoofer porthole snide remark using vegan lubrication?
 
CajunLB

CajunLB

Senior Audioholic
Congratulations! My Yamaha works with no bug's and or issues also. Gotta to ask though, you eat melatonins,? ;)
I got my melatonin when I had turkey for Thanksgiving. It’s a cold rainy day so I’m thinking about Gumbo.:p
 
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AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Just a quick update. Yamaha confirmed my measurements but there doesn't seem to be a recourse in fixing anything. I will publish the test report as it stands and do my listening tests next to see if any of this is audible. Stay tuned....
A riddle: If an audiophile gets A6A as a gift for Christmas and then reads Gene's eagerly awaited review, is it still a good gift?
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
I always recommend starting with the AVR's room correction. Adjust from there as necessary, including turning it off if it doesn't work well.
Set your subs to neutral: Phase should be a 0º, LPF should be set to Bypass/Off/Maximum, Gain should start around 50% with the program telling you to adjust if necessary. (You never want you subs to have AVR trims maxed out, or have the subs be the quietest Speakers... Ideally Sub trim should be around -7dB as a rule of thumb.)

(My experience with Audyssey and the XT32 App has been very positive.)
So I set crossover to the max (120hz I think) and phase to 0 (I know that it should be 180 with my speakers). After calibration no bass… because of the phase. Once the phase set to 180 it sounds really good, and I think once again YPAO does a better job handling the crossover than me setting it. I also assume like the subs crossover is 120hz instead of 45hz it means the subs got more range for LFE in 5.1 or 7.2). I got -7dB on left sub and -10dB on right sub
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
So I set crossover to the max (120hz I think)
The XO (crossover) and the LPF (low pass filter) are different settings. It is an absolute must when using room correction to not have the LPF on the Sub and the XO set by the AVR overlapping (hence the instruction to set the Sub LPF to Max/Bypass/Off: it is very undesirable to have any stacking of Bass Management between Sub and AVR).

For the actual XO between Sub and Speaker in the AVR, it is generally recommended to start at 80Hz. Another point of guidance is that you set the XO 1/2 octave above the Speaker's F3, yet another is 1 octave above the Speaker's F3. In all instances it is advisable to listen and experiment some.
Many find that a higher XO usually allows the Speaker's Mids and Highs to be more clear and punchy as the most energy demanding Bass rolled off to the Sub. For my experience with an F3 at 25 Hz or 34Hz, I had still kept an 80Hz XO because of that clarity and punch I described. Everybody is a little different and I know some folk here have selected higher XO points of 100 or even 110Hz.
120Hz is the point where pretty much everybody agrees that you can begin to localize the Sub (meaning that you can identify that the sound is emanating from the Sub, rather than blending with your Mains.

There is another setting you will likely have in your AVR which will dictate the LPF of LFE. This is specifically for the LFE channel in multichannel programming and it should always be set at 120Hz.

What you describe with your trims looks good.

@OldAndSlowDev : what Distance/Delay did the AVR set for your Subs?
 
little wing

little wing

Audioholic General
I will run YPAO now I understand that that sound distance isn’t straight line distance. I have a question about the crossover on subs, should I let the subs to play full range (27-300) while doing the calibration and let the amp manage the crossover? Or manually setting the proper front speakers/ subs crossover is the way to do it ?
If your bass management and crossover settings are happening in the AVR, then you should set the crossover on the subs to the highest setting so it doesn't interfere with the receiver doing it's thing.
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
The XO (crossover) and the LPF (low pass filter) are different settings. It is an absolute must when using room correction to not have the LPF on the Sub and the XO set by the AVR overlapping (hence the instruction to set the Sub LPF to Max/Bypass/Off: it is very undesirable to have any stacking of Bass Management between Sub and AVR).

For the actual XO between Sub and Speaker in the AVR, it is generally recommended to start at 80Hz. Another point of guidance is that you set the XO 1/2 octave above the Speaker's F3, yet another is 1 octave above the Speaker's F3. In all instances it is advisable to listen and experiment some.
Many find that a higher XO usually allows the Speaker's Mids and Highs to be more clear and punchy as the most energy demanding Bass rolled off to the Sub. For my experience with an F3 at 25 Hz or 34Hz, I had still kept an 80Hz XO because of that clarity and punch I described. Everybody is a little different and I know some folk here have selected higher XO points of 100 or even 110Hz.
120Hz is the point where pretty much everybody agrees that you can begin to localize the Sub (meaning that you can identify that the sound is emanating from the Sub, rather than blending with your Mains.

There is another setting you will likely have in your AVR which will dictate the LPF of LFE. This is specifically for the LFE channel in multichannel programming and it should always be set at 120Hz.

What you describe with your trims looks good.

@OldAndSlowDev : what Distance/Delay did the AVR set for your Subs?
So I can’t tune anything but crossover and LFE input level in my sub, there is nothing about low pass filter. About localizing the subs, it’s strangely something I am looking for for frequencies between maybe 35 to 45hz if this makes sense as I use my subs in a stereo mode to fill the lows my B&W 704 can’t reproduce.
About distances the subs appear at 3.7m while they are physically at 3m. But as suggested I am not changing/correcting the distances.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
If your bass management and crossover settings are happening in the AVR, then you should set the crossover on the subs to the highest setting so it doesn't interfere with the receiver doing it's thing.
Yup, and in many cases modern subs will have a dedicated LFE input that bypasses the sub's internal low pass filter altogether. I use that but still turn the crossover to the highest setting anyway for good measure.

Does Yamaha have something similar to Denon's "LPF for LFE" in the double bass/mains menu? I only ask because That's a different thing and a lot of folks (me included at one time) confuse it with the crossover setting.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
So I can’t tune anything but crossover and LFE input level in my sub, there is nothing about low pass filter. About localizing the subs, it’s strangely something I am looking for for frequencies between maybe 35 to 45hz if this makes sense as I use my subs in a stereo mode to fill the lows my B&W 704 can’t reproduce.
About distances the subs appear at 3.7m while they are physically at 3m. But as suggested I am not changing/correcting the distances.
The low pass (crossover) filter on your subwoofer. You should turn it all the way up and/or bypass it altogether by using the LFE input if you're letting your receiver handle the crossovers.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord

Just wanted to share this visual to help illustrate the relationship between the LFE channel which is only present in films, and only changed by the LPF of LFE setting, (mislabeled as 20hz-120hz, should read 0-120) and the XO relationship between the speakers and subwoofers and how redirected bass is handled.
Thought it might help to “see” how they are mutually exclusive. If this doesn’t help, or you already understand I will piss off! Lol
Edit: this is a representation of bass management handled in the AVR.
 
little wing

little wing

Audioholic General
Yup, and in many cases modern subs will have a dedicated LFE input that bypasses the sub's internal low pass filter altogether. I use that but still turn the crossover to the highest setting anyway for good measure.

Does Yamaha have something similar to Denon's "LPF for LFE" in the double bass/mains menu? I only ask because That's a different thing and a lot of folks (me included at one time) confuse it with the crossover setting.
So I haven't had a Denon for a long time, but Yamaha has this setting in the options menu called "Extra Bass" I think it's been talked about here before. Gene did a piece on it, and doesn't recommend using it with your speakers set to small. I could be wrong but I think it sends a full range signal to your mains, even if they are set to small with, say a 80hz crossover. I guessing that the lower frequencies are being doubled up by the sub and the mains to muddy up the sound. Some people like it. I don't use it much. I love Jimi Hendrix (obviously) .. and sometimes engaging the "Extra Bass feature while listening to his music warms up the sound a bit and makes it more full. But other than that I generally keep it off.

I know you've got your bass tuned to perfection, some day I'm gonna be like you, LOL.
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic

Just wanted to share this visual to help illustrate the relationship between the LFE channel which is only present in films, and only changed by the LPF of LFE setting, (mislabeled as 20hz-120hz, should read 0-120) and the XO relationship between the speakers and subwoofers and how redirected bass is handled.
Thought it might help to “see” how they are mutually exclusive. If this doesn’t help, or you already understand I will piss off! Lol
Edit: this is a representation of bass management handled in the AVR.
I don’t find any information about what could be the YPAO detected low pass filter value but when using extra bass in stereo music, I have deep bass and the low medium aren’t boosted while my sub crossover potentiometer is set on the max (120Hz) so Yamaha is definitely doing something right here. I am listening to tunes that I have listen with manual sub settings and I think I was blasting bass. Now I still have some bass when needed, but it’s not “in your face” (which when receiving your first sub is pleasant but actually not right).
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
So I haven't had a Denon for a long time, but Yamaha has this setting in the options menu called "Extra Bass" I think it's been talked about here before. Gene did a piece on it, and doesn't recommend using it with your speakers set to small. I could be wrong but I think it sends a full range signal to your mains, even if they are set to small with, say a 80hz crossover. I guessing that the lower frequencies are being doubled up by the sub and the mains to muddy up the sound. Some people like it. I don't use it much. I love Jimi Hendrix (obviously) .. and sometimes engaging the "Extra Bass feature while listening to his music warms up the sound a bit and makes it more full. But other than that I generally keep it off.

I know you've got your bass tuned to perfection, some day I'm gonna be like you, LOL.
I am using extra bass with speakers set to large to get the subs bringing the lows the front speakers can’t reproduce. It’s working great when you let the amp do it, I have spent hours with high level, manual crossover and level tweaks to finally reach the point it was okish while running YPAO and using extra bass works better.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
I don’t find any information about what could be the YPAO detected low pass filter value but when using extra bass in stereo music, I have deep bass and the low medium aren’t boosted while my sub crossover potentiometer is set on the max (120Hz) so Yamaha is definitely doing something right here. I am listening to tunes that I have listen with manual sub settings and I think I was blasting bass. Now I still have some bass when needed, but it’s not “in your face” (which when receiving your first sub is pleasant but actually not right).
Well if you mean the in the image I attached, the ypao detected LPF would be in reference to the LFE channel. The bottom graph. Basically you can lpf, the top of the LFE signal. This is irrelevant to music since there is not a .1 channel in music, but only movies.
The extra bass I have not used for a long time. I have tried it with yamaha, Onkyo Marantz and pioneer. I don’t like it at all as it only serves to make muddy bass. Ymmv of course.
Using the extra/double bass feature you can usually select a XO filter since the mains and subs get a duplicate signal. In reality though it’s more of a HPF for the mains. Again, IMO extra bass is a mess, and using it for movies is a good way to destroy speakers.
 
little wing

little wing

Audioholic General
I am using extra bass with speakers set to large to get the subs bringing the lows the front speakers can’t reproduce. It’s working great when you let the amp do it, I have spent hours with high level, manual crossover and level tweaks to finally reach the point it was okish while running YPAO and using extra bass works better.
Sounds like you're doing it the right way. Bet that sounds awesome.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
I am using extra bass with speakers set to large to get the subs bringing the lows the front speakers can’t reproduce. It’s working great when you let the amp do it, I have spent hours with high level, manual crossover and level tweaks to finally reach the point it was okish while running YPAO and using extra bass works better.
Have you tried setting to small? Without extra bass?
 
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