Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Really? :D
Check out the definition of the word 'forum'.
Young grasshopper, when you snatch the report out of Gene's hands, it will be time for you to leave. :p
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
The Force is strong with you. There needs to be a balance in the Force. Every time you repeat "buy Yamaha" or "it's 50th, 100th, 150th day that my Yamaha works fully", :D someone need to remind of Gene's words "hot mess" too. It is what it is. May the Force be with you.;)
In a word .. just but Yamaha.:D
 
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OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
Yamaha RX-A8A beta tester diary.
Because I have a receiver to compare with, I found one thing on my Yamaha RX-A8A which sounded really bad compared with the V6A: the DSP. In my system it introduced some artefacts on lower quality signals like the TV and some PCM but also on the higher quality signals like Atmos in a specific frequency range, especially on voices. It was driving me nuts to hear a parasite signal on the voices like the sound a dirty pickup needle is making when playing something. It was present but in a lower key and not always on straight too. I did not have the same noise using the DSP in the V6A maybe because is using NeoCinema. But the scratching sound on voices was is more pronounced when upmixing stereo into surround.
Today I think I found the culprit. It is in the photo where the green arrows are. Standard value is 1. As soon as I reduced it to minimum the voices received clarity and depth. Unfortunately the AI is introducing those artefacts so I am keeping it off now. Drama is my favorite DSP.
View attachment 52205
Surround decoder does not introduce these types of artefacts but bleeds voices to the back channels and introduces other artefacts in the rear speakers.
That’s maybe why I don’t have any issue: I don’t use anything but straight or Surround Decoder.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
With all thing considered, there is no way I would consider an AVR/AVP upgrade until at least 2022, more likely 2023. There are just nothing currently available that are worth "upgrading" to. I don't trust the those new AXA Advantage series either
It's good to be cautious. I would also give them a benefit of a doubt to deliver promised firmware in Q1 2022 and unleash full potential of those devices. Fingers crossed it works reliably.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
It's good to be cautious. I would also give them a benefit of a doubt to deliver promised firmware in Q1 2022 and unleash full potential of those devices. Fingers crossed it works reliably.
Us Yamaha Fanboyz, know all about Denon, Yamaha, Marantz issues. I myself have been following the chip issue, the delay issues with shipping since day 1. As for Gene posting up, A6A being a hot mess, -65db on one or more channels isn't audible. Maybe his new Storm 24k Pre-Pro that had -55db which isn't audible, is a hot mess. But he didn't use that analogy for his 24k Pre-Pro.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Anyone concerned about the HDMI 2.1 capabilities, I pressed Yamaha support a bit more and got this response.
"After a firmware update this fall, all HDMI inputs and outputs on the RX-A6A will support the HDMI 2.1 specification 48 GBit/s bandwidth, 42.6 GBit/s data transfer."
That person from support did not give correct information. It's 40 Gbps on all ports.
if you go back to any of the threads here on AH about the 2.1 issues, you'll see many opinions voiced to the effect that 2022 is likely to be the year where buying a new AVR/AVP may make sense. By then, we should be well into the 3rd gen of HDMI 2.1 ChipSets. And by 2022 Q1, we should know if these 2nd Gen Updated ChipSets are worth anything.
The update on this is that second gen chips work fine in Denons, Onkyos and in some upgraded boards in high-end AV processors, such as Steinway Lyngdorf. Those should work fine in new Yamahas too, pending successful firmware roll out in Q1 2022. Most of those chips are sourced at Analog Devices, Diodes, Parade Tech and other companies.

As for the third gen chips, we have not heard anything about them as yet. Those might be in development stage and are expected to host a full speed of 48 Gbps. Leaks with preliminary testing might start trickling in H1 2022.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's good to be cautious. I would also give them a benefit of a doubt to deliver promised firmware in Q1 2022 and unleash full potential of those devices. Fingers crossed it works reliably.
Agreed, but now that you mentioned it, some of those things could not be fixed via FW, the HDMI2.1 fix that some gamers need was one of those, but D+M was good enough to ship an ext. hardware fix to those who wanted it.

Some owners still complained (seen it on at least one forum) about having to use such as an on. To me, I would definitely give D+M the credit for providing the fix regardless.

1639308040198.png
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
It is ridiculous that those models are not fully equipped out of the box this far into this mess at those price points
The reason for this is that Yamaha decided to push HDMI Forum to create and release testing certification protocol for all HDMI 2.1 devices. The Forum should have done this in the beginning of 2020, before any AVRs with new tech were released, to prevent the mess that happened.

I think it's a good move by Yamaha to have pushed for this, so that devices are certified. Inevitably, this will bring some delay in rolling out the full capability and getting certified, but we hope other vendors will also want to certify their devices and follow Yamaha's lead on this. It would benefit everyone, both companies and us consumers.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
2021 is shaping up hard as another lost year for AVRs and such.
At this point, I wouldn’t mind seeing Sound United take a hard pass on releasing anything this year; placing a concerted effort on perhaps an early Spring release of a dialed in set of fully operational gear.
It turned out slightly better, with Onkyo/Integra making new machines available (in the US for time-being) and Denon's surprising release of three new models at the lower tier. Both are fully functional, so everyone is just waiting for Yamaha's new models to start working to the full spec in Q1 2022. It's painfully slow, but it's getting better, little by little.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Agreed, but now that you mentioned it, some of those things could not be fixed via FW, the HDMI2.1 fix that some gamers need was one of those, but D+M was good enough to ship an ext. hardware fix to those who wanted it.
Some owners still complained (seen it on at least one forum) about having to use such as an on. To me, I would definitely give D+M the credit for providing the fix regardless.
Denon's fix, aka the adapter box, was easier to procure, design and manufacture, hence it arrived earlier. It took them 7 months from the moment the issue was reported by German tech magazine. The adapter box contains one chip MN864807 with one input/output enabled and all others disabled.

Adapter.png

Yamaha's solution, board replacement on entire line-up was more complex, as they needed to change several chips, aka entire board. The reason for that was that Yamaha had originally chosen to release AVRs will multiple inputs, whereas Denon opted for one speedy port. Yamaha offered free boards on 2020 models and withdrew A4A, A6A and A8A from release in 2020 in order to factory install completely new boards with second gen chips 40 Gbps on all ports. Hence more delay in fixing the problem on 2020 models and release of other three models in 2021. Further firmware delay is due to pending certification process, as explained above.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Denon's fix, aka the adapter box, was easier to procure, design and manufacture, hence it arrived earlier. It took them 7 months from the moment the issue was reported by German tech magazine. The adapter box contains one chip MN864807 with one input/output enabled and all others disabled.

View attachment 52216
Yamaha's solution, board replacement on entire line-up was more complex, as they needed to change several chips, aka entire board. The reason for that was that Yamaha had originally chosen to release AVRs will multiple inputs, whereas Denon opted for one speedy port. Yamaha offered free boards on 2020 models and withdrew A4A, A6A and A8A from release in 2020 in order to factory install completely new boards with second gen chips 40 Gbps on all ports. Hence more delay in fixing the problem on 2020 models and release of other three models in 2021. Further firmware delay is due to pending certification process, as explained above.
40 Gbps is more than enough bandwidth for anything that's currently out there now even for the next few years probably next 10 years. What say you grasshopper.:p
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Denon's fix, aka the adapter box, was easier to procure, design and manufacture, hence it arrived earlier. It took them 7 months from the moment the issue was reported by German tech magazine. The adapter box contains one chip MN864807 with one input/output enabled and all others disabled.

View attachment 52216
Yamaha's solution, board replacement on entire line-up was more complex, as they needed to change several chips, aka entire board. The reason for that was that Yamaha had originally chosen to release AVRs will multiple inputs, whereas Denon opted for one speedy port. Yamaha offered free boards on 2020 models and withdrew A4A, A6A and A8A from release in 2020 in order to factory install completely new boards with second gen chips 40 Gbps on all ports. Hence more delay in fixing the problem on 2020 models and release of other three models in 2021. Further firmware delay is due to pending certification process, as explained above.
Denon and Marantz made the mistake releasing their products prematurely. My point is simply that at least they tried to support those who need it without being forced to by a class law suit or something. So no, they don't deserved to be thanked, but they deserved a little credit for trying to do something that helped.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Just as an aside, in 44 years of Yamaha ownership of Amps, receivers, and turntables, my total problems with them consisted of an R700 that I bought in 1979? had the nut holding the main volume control loosen up, and I'm not happy with YPAO correction at all. That's it
I’ve used Yamaha avrs for over 30 years with outboard amps way back with Soundcraftsmen , SAE , carvers I’ve never had an issue with driving them my present setup with Carver amps is maybe my stopping point in my search for outboard amperage.
I concur in terms of overall reliability, although my mileage is more humble than yours gents, just over two decades. I also agree YPAO needs an overhaul in next gen or migration to Dirac or similar.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
I feel like Yamaha designers are going to struggle to differentiate the next CX from the A8, as the A8 has adopted several features from the CX-A5200 (and the MX amp). What do you guys think can they do to make it special besides the obvious stuff like a full set of balanced preouts?
Make it 16 channels, include Dirac room correction, HDMI 2.1 (that works), DTS: X Pro, and to make everyone happy put the best Sabre DACs in. I'm sure there is more, but that's what I can think of right now.
For AVP, I can see 13CH and even 16CH because there are no amps inside, but they would need to remove older legacy I/O to make room for more #CH. I think what’s holding them back is the fact that the MX-A amp is 11CH.
It's not going to be difficult to differentiate 5300 from AXA models. Gradual improvements are safe bet, and perhaps some surprises:
- all XLR ports - 13 channels most likely, for 7.2.6 configurations
- HDMI board working out of the box (perhaps even with third gen chips, if chips are ready in good time)
- SoC Qualcomm® QCS407 is "WiFi 6 ready", maybe better WiFi than 2021 models
- 1 Gbps LAN port instead of 100 Mbps
- SoC also supports USB 3.0, PCIe, UART and other peripheral protocols, so new devices might be attached, such as AV-over-IP Dante or similar (Yamaha already has this solution in pro broadcast environment)
- more ambitious display
- on power side, capacitors might go up to 27-30,000 uF
- SMPS power supply is unlikely at this point, but they need to introduce it somewhere at some point. It's smaller, lighter and could open up even more channels, while leaving enough space for proper thick heat sinks.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Denon and Marantz made the mistake releasing their products prematurely. My point is simply that at least they tried to support those who need it without being forced to by a class law suit or something. So no, they don't deserved to be thanked, but they deserved a little credit for trying to do something that helped.
I simply described what happened with both companies in terms of solutions for issues they faced, without typing any judgment in that post. Judgment of those actions is a whole new avenue for debate.

I agree with you for premature release. Everybody agreed that both companies hastily released machines without testing them properly, in a bid to outcompete each other.

Both companies deserve a credit for coming with solutions. They had to. There was no choice here, as chips were faulty in all machines and there was an outcry by the public.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Well I mean the perfect processor does exist. It’s called Trinnov. Or DataSat . :pWhich ever anyone prefers. They have 16-32 channels, comes with Dirac. Or with Trinnov, they have created their own EQ software. Some consider even better than Dirac. Industry leading warranties. High end materials used. Every single sound codec out there. List goes on.
And widely unavailable for vast majority of people on this planet due to its super high price.
It's interesting with Trinnov. When Amir from ASR requested one unit for testing, Trinnov engineers delayed dispatch in order to tweak DAC. Finally, in May 2021 we got the review. Not too bad, above 100 points on his scale. It's far from perfect for such price tag, but it's a great device.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
40 Gbps is more than enough bandwidth for anything that's currently out there now even for the next few years probably next 10 years. What say you grasshopper.
Sure. It is enough. I did not say anywhere that it is not enough for the mainstream market. As 4K/120 rules on TV and consoles for foreseeable future, it's perfectly enough for vast majority of people who use AVRs as a middle man in their home media hub.

There are early birds of change for those who might need full speed of 48 Gbps. It's niche at the moment, but good to know for those who plan specific configurations with monitors and AVRs. HDMI Forum is preparing a minor revision of the spec to include 4K/144Hz refresh rates in EDID. This is primarily for new 10-bit PC monitors with full bandwidth ports. Current Nvidia GPUs can output 48 Gbps signal and next year new gen of GPUs from Intel and AMD will be able to do the same. As new 4K/144Hz monitors arrive into the market, HDMI 2.1 spec needs to allow higher than 120 Hz refresh rates officially. This will need 48 Gbps speed for RGB/444 colours. Until AVRs upgrade their boards to full speed, which is expected with third gen of chips, PC users will connect their monitors directly to PC, to avoid AVR being a bottleneck for missing 8 Gbps. It might still work for current owners, if all three devices support DSC protocol, which Yamaha and Nvidia do. We shall see with monitors.
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
The thing about trinnov that ultimately intrigues me is their desire to work hard to keep their reputation and their customers satisfied.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Young grasshopper, when you snatch the report out of Gene's hands, it will be time for you to leave. :p
Hahaha! If you are suggesting to be the wise mantis, I am yet to soak with wisdom on offer. ;)

I neither arrived here to wait for this testing report, nor it would change anything in my life. A dozen of members thanked me for informative and detailed input in several topics, including for exhaustive assistance over PMs. The posts speak their own story. Several members repeatedly asked us here about Gene's tests, as they probably did not read previous pages or forgot about what was said before. It happens. I only replied to them and explained what was going on and possibly why. I am not demanding from anyone to publish anything. That's up to them.
 
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