AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
There is no way to measure the temperature of the components (they don't have built-in thermometers like CPUs). However, it is a very sound assumption that companies like Denon (or Marantz, Yamaha, etc) which have been designing electronics and their cooling systems for decades, know how to use a heat sink. As long as we can pull fresh cool air through the unit on a steady basis, you are optimizing conditions for cooling.
The rate of heat transfer into the heat sink is directly proportional to delta T (the difference in temperature between the hot component and the heat sink) so as long as we keep room temperature air flowing across the cooling fins, we are in good shape. Understand this is a unit designed to work many years from natural convection (just the heat rising), so increased air flow is going to make a substantial difference.
I should also comment (while on the subject) that these units come with built-in fans, but by all accounts these fan almost never come on. The belief is these fans are purely for testing so when someone (does FCC still test?) sees what the max continuous wattage the unit can put out, the fan will kick on, rather than getting a thermal shut-off. This is another example of how effective a fan is because the unit gets very hot before these kick on, but they have no problem "catching up" with the high temperatures.
From the standpoint of maintaining long term cooler temperatures for reliability, the $20 fans are the way to go. They also make some low clearance boxed-in fans that exhaust to the front or to the back if you have a (too) close shelf above your AVR.
I feel it's a good idea to use cheap fans.

But at the same time, there is no PROOF that using fans will increase reliability.

Using 3 x 120 mm fans atop my AVP-A1HDCI did not make it last longer than ~ 8 years. Grassy's AVP-A1HDCI also died about 8 years, and he never mentioned using any fans. Of course, this is not conclusive and is just theory.

What if using fans increase the air flow and also DUST to accumulate INSIDE the chassis? The fans themselves, while pulling air/heat out, also physically block some ventilations in the chassis. The reason I mentioned dust is because I noticed MORE DUST on the fans themselves than on the chassis areas that did not have fans.

My conclusion is that if your AVR heats up like crazy, then definitely use fans. I think heat is a lot worse than dust. But if it does not heat up like crazy, then don't use fans because you don't have proof either way.
 
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R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I ordered the $50 ac one, that should work good correct? It’s essentially the same size as the dual $20 ones
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The Denons will run very hot if you have even 1 4 ohm speaker attached and fail to set the receiver to 4 ohm speakers in the setup menu.
I have to believe if you experience a difference in temp of your unit, you are running short on power for your dynamic response and essentially clipping your speakers (which can damage them).
Here is an article on this.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I feel it's a good idea to use cheap fans.

But at the same time, there is no PROOF that using fans will increase reliability.

Using 3 x 120 mm fans atop my AVP-A1HDCI did not make it last longer than ~ 8 years. Grassy's AVP-A1HDCI also died about 8 years, and he never mentioned using any fans. Of course, this is not conclusive and is just theory.

What if using fans increase the air flow and also DUST to accumulate INSIDE the chassis? The fans themselves, while pulling air/heat out, also physically block some ventilations in the chassis. The reason I mentioned dust is because I noticed MORE DUST on the fans themselves than on the chassis areas that did not have fans.
So would say just keeping eco on would be just fine with no fans?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So would say just keeping eco on would be just fine with no fans?
I think if ECO allows the AVR not to be too hot, I personally would not use fans.

I don't use any fans for my ATI AT2005, Yamaha CX-A5100, Yamaha MX-A5000, and Yamaha RX-A3080.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
Is the conclusion then that it’s ok to use eco to reduce heat and it won’t reduce power to the speakers that will be noticeable? I’ve never used eco on my other receivers and this will be my first time owning a denon. I’m just trying to get some good insight from those who have experience with denon’s. I enjoy learning from all you guys on here about whatever I ask, it’s appreciated.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I think if ECO allows the AVR not to be too hot, I personally would not use fans.

I don't use any fans for my ATI AT2005, Yamaha CX-A5100, Yamaha MX-A5000, and Yamaha RX-A3080.
I’ve only had Yamaha and I too have never used a fan on them but they have never felt hot to the touch or overly hot period. Judging by the responses, I’m guessing the denon is going to feel a lot more hot than my Yamaha
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I’ve only had Yamaha and I too have never used a fan on them but they have never felt hot to the touch or overly hot period. Judging by the responses, I’m guessing the denon is going to feel a lot more hot than my Yamaha
Yeah, a lot hotter based on my experience. But maybe the ECO mode will fix that.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
This may have been said before but if denons run that hot and have been for years I’m assuming, why has the company not come up with a resolution for that? Seems like they make quality products, odd to me
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
But at the same time, there is no PROOF that using fans will increase reliability.
Seriously?
Be more specific!
Are you skeptical that pulling cool air into the unit keeps the electronics cooler?
Or, are you skeptical that the fans actually pull air through the unit?
Or, are you skeptical that keeping electronics cooler increases reliability?
Or is there something else I missed?
Be specific, because you are talking about some fundamental principals of cooling and electronics reliability that are well established!

As for dust, yes, that could be an issue, but one easily solved with a can of compressed air.
 
P

Paul DS

Audioholic
I have to believe if you experience a difference in temp of your unit, you are running short on power for your dynamic response and essentially clipping your speakers (which can damage them).
Here is an article on this.
I don't understand your statement. My system has plenty of power and is in no way clipping. My main speakers are 4 ohm. If I run the Denon with the 8 ohm setting, it gets very hot. On the 4 ohm setting, it is cool as a cucumber. I certainly don't need more power.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When I have ECO turned to "OFF" I never hear a clicking sound from the AVR because it does not change modes in "OFF". It's only when I set ECO to "AUTO" that I hear the AVR change gears between 47-50. Maybe our units are different in some way? Or maybe the load matters? I will study the eco meter and see what it shows. Thanks!
There is no chance of them being that different, because I have compared the schematics of the 4400 and 4500, and 6014, they are all the same.

As I mentioned before though, there is a time delay between switching on and off. It is far from instantaneous. You have to wait to hear the very quiet click or you will miss it. It is much easier to observe the onscreen display energy use bar, but then you still have to be patient as they display goes off after a few seconds so you have to keep pressing the volume up or down 1 notch just to keep it alive.

So to observe the switching, I suggest you set the volume to say -25, move the volume +/- 1 every couple seconds until the energy use bar shows Eco off, that is the bar would be about 1/3 or more full scale. Once there, then reduce volume to -30, and do the same and see if the energy bar would show Eco coming "on", that is showing less than 1/3 or somewhere around there from the fully bar when Eco was off. If not, increase volume to about -39 or lower and wait again, while moving volume between -38 to -40 just to keep the bar on. If you wait long enough, sometime may take a minute instead of seconds, but it will switch, promise..

That's just so you can see the click instead of hearing it. To hear it you have to do the same but have to be close the AVR to hear it unless you room is very quiet and your hearing is very good.

If you want to see for yourself Eco "auto" is same as Eco "off" at higher volume, all you have to do it to set the volume to say -23 again, and move the volume +/- 1 or 2, that is between -24 to -22 and you will see that it will never turn "on" even with nothing playing.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Seriously?
Be more specific!
Are you skeptical that pulling cool air into the unit keeps the electronics cooler?
Or, are you skeptical that the fans actually pull air through the unit?
Or, are you skeptical that keeping electronics cooler increases reliability?
Or is there something else I missed?
Be specific, because you are talking about some fundamental principals of cooling and electronics reliability that are well established!

As for dust, yes, that could be an issue, but one easily solved with a can of compressed air.
Show me ONE actual study that proved using fans to cool AVR improved reliability. Name me one actual study.

We can easily show how using fans atop AVR can lower the chassis temp.

Are there even any documentations on how much heat is cooled on the actual surface of the electronic components?

Let me give you an example in the medical field. We know that decreasing Blood Pressure (to normal BP) is great. But just because a Drug lowers Blood Pressure does NOT PROVE that the drug decreases overall MORTALITY. There may be other things going on that we don't know.

So just because fans cool the AVR does NOT PROVE it increases RELIABILITY. There may be other factors involved.

So unless you actually have a STUDY to prove that fans increase reliability, there is NO PROOF.

I don't have a study to support my question either. But I do have a personal case - my AVP-A1HDCI - to show that using THREE 120mm fans atop the chassis in a COOLED HVAC-controlled room still did not increase the lifespan of my AVP-A1HDCI to more than 8 years.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks PENG/William, great info as usual. I turned My receiver to 45 absolute And put eco on auto to see if I could get the relay to trip. I started turning it up incrementally and I heard the relay click at 50. I went into the setup menu and I had ECO on, so unless I turn it off it is on all the time. I didn’t know this. (WIsh I had the paper manual) set it to off. I want full power all the time. I have fans and a warranty!
The pdf manual is better than the paper one afaic....first thing I do when I get a new piece of gear is to download the manual....
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't understand your statement. My system has plenty of power and is in no way clipping. My main speakers are 4 ohm. If I run the Denon with the 8 ohm setting, it gets very hot. On the 4 ohm setting, it is cool as a cucumber. I certainly don't need more power.
Yeah, I agree. If your system sounds great with less power, I would do that to keep it operating cooler.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I don't understand your statement. My system has plenty of power and is in no way clipping. My main speakers are 4 ohm. If I run the Denon with the 8 ohm setting, it gets very hot. On the 4 ohm setting, it is cool as a cucumber. I certainly don't need more power.
I guess as long as you are staying below the threshold that the switch cuts power off, It would stay cool and you would be good. But understand that in the example Gene gave in the video, the 4 Ohm switch capped the power at 17 Watts which seems pretty ridiculous to me, This was a 2014 Denon AVR-X5200W he tested. In his review, for a "Con" he wrote:
Includes the world’s worst impedance selector switch
You can read more here:
 
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VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
If you want to see for yourself Eco "auto" is same as Eco "off" at higher volume, all you have to do it to set the volume to say -23 again, and move the volume +/- 1 or 2, that is between -24 to -22 and you will see that it will never turn "on" even with nothing playing.
PENG,
I am not using ECO off or auto mode. I leave ECO "ON" and it does not click when the volume rises above 47-57. ECO stays on and the power meter stays low. Here is an image of the volume at 57.5 and ECO mode is ON. Energy usage stays low on the power bar - Denon stays cool. I don't notice a difference in SQ with the main speakers on an external amp.


eco-on at 57.png
 
P

Paul DS

Audioholic
I guess as long as you are staying below the threshold that the switch cuts power off, It would stay cool and you would be good. But understand that in the example Gene gave in the video, the 4 Ohm switch capped the power at 17 Watts which seems pretty ridiculous to me, This was a 2014 Denon AVR-X5200W he tested. In his review, for a "Con" he wrote:


You can read more here:
So exactly what is your point? You don't like Denon equipment, or that applying more power to a speaker somehow makes it sound better? I don't notice any difference in audio quality using either the 4 or 8 ohm setting.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So exactly what is your point? You don't like Denon equipment, or that applying more power to a speaker somehow makes it sound better? I don't notice any difference in audio quality using either the 4 or 8 ohm setting.
I am a fan of Denon AVR's as I think they present the best value in a capable AVR (esp the 4XXX and 3XXX series)!
Applying more power doesn't make it sound better unless you are currently running out of power. It sounds like you are fine on that count.
My point is I wanted you to be aware of the issue. The rule of thumb here (as presented by Gene and Hugo in the video) is to always keep it on 8 ohms. Based on what you are saying, you are the exception to this rule!
I assume you must have some fairly efficient speakers or your listening position is close (or both).
In any case, I wanted to make sure you understood that the 4 Ohm setting can be problematic.
It is probably not a good thing to recommend as a method to keep the AVR cooler without including the cautions!
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
In any case, I wanted to make sure you understood that the 4 Ohm setting can be problematic.
It is probably not a good thing to recommend as a method to keep the AVR cooler without including the cautions!
It's interesting that Denon doesn't show it in the menus. You have to dig thru the manual to find the secret key combination for 4 ohm. :)
 

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