Will Marantz MM-7025 paired with Marantz SR7011 improve sound quality?

[Leemix]

I do agree that if going for separate amp its good to aim at 200/250w and up.


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[PENG]

They are still related, tho. Hard to know but when someone says they've heard things improve at relatively low volume levels by adding an external amp it may just be expectation bias.

I've done it both ways and at high volume levels there may be an advantage depending on speakers, room, distance, etc. These days I am happy with avr alone with my various avr setups (4)...but if you do go power amp route I think you should get significantly more power if you're going to scratch that itch...like 200-300 wpc with significant low impedance capability....YMMV.

I was very happy with how the X3400H sounded for the 10 days or so when I AB'ed with my separates. Actually, I have the 7055's bigger brother, the MM8003 (100,000 uf caps, 1,200 VA transformer) in my HT room along with the Outlaw and Anthem amp, all sound the same to me at the volume I need. To me, once you get pass a certain level, it is more about power, how loud, distance etc., much less about the so called sound quality, but that's an old debate that, if engaged in, would end no where but you know that very well already, right?.

 

[PENG]

How it sounds, not how loud it can get.

Got you, my bad, I thought we have already discussed things on the subjective side of the equation, didn't know we are back at it again. So then again, the human race has the means to predict and measure things accurately enough to land on the moon and likely beyond if tried..based on know science. Yet people in the audio hifi world also still hear what they hear, yeah, at any volume. It's not for me to deny what other people believe they heard. I only know what I can and cannot..and what is logically even possible.

 

[Pogre]

How it sounds, not how loud it can get.

The human ear can interpret slight differences in loudness as better clarity. That's why level matching is important when you're comparing power sources.

 

[Leemix]

The human ear can interpret slight differences in loudness as better clarity. That's why level matching is important when you're comparing power sources.

I know

 

[Leemix]

Got you, my bad, I thought we have already discussed things on the subjective side of the equation, didn't know we are back at it again. So then again, the human race has the means to predict and measure things accurately enough to land on the moon and likely beyond if tried..based on know science. Yet people in the audio hifi world also still hear what they hear, yeah, at any volume. It's not for me to deny what other people believe they heard. I only know what I can and cannot..and what is logically even possible.

Im not saying we cant measure neccessarily, im saying we possibly dont know exactly what to look for or how to interpret the results well enough. (Possibly in relation to general human preferences)

 

[ryanosaur]

Got you, my bad, I thought we have already discussed things on the subjective side of the equation, didn't know we are back at it again. So then again, the human race has the means to predict and measure things accurately enough to land on the moon and likely beyond if tried..based on know science. Yet people in the audio hifi world also still hear what they hear, yeah, at any volume. It's not for me to deny what other people believe they heard. I only know what I can and cannot..and what is logically even possible.

Careful, Mr Spock... Logic and Audiophilia do not seem to play in the same universe.

 

[PENG]

Im not saying we cant measure neccessarily, im saying we possibly dont know exactly what to look for or how to interpret the results well enough. (Possibly in relation to general human preferences)

I know, it wasn't a rebuttal to what you said at all. Just my ranting on the related topic, I guess..

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't tell most of these guys that they'll want graphs and charts explaining how. I agree with my home theater but like I said some guys will want definitive proof.

Nope, my ears do. That's not a good enough answer around here sometimes though.

You also thought Audyssey until recently was crap until you changed your approach....

 

[Hetfield]

You also thought Audyssey until recently was crap until you changed your approach....

And that means what exactly? My ears worked the entire time, when I ran Audyssey incorrectly it sounded bad by ears. When I finally ran it right, it sounded good by my ears. Ears never fail. I think people get to lost in the graphs and charts. When the simple question to be answered in, how does it sound by your ears?

 

[PENG]

The human ear can interpret slight differences in loudness as better clarity. That's why level matching is important when you're comparing power sources.

Agreed, in addition, as mentioned many times by others, noise floor is another important factor and that's why audiophiles or even ordinary audioholics are so keen on SNR/DR specs and measurements. I know as least one, namely @AcuDefTechGuy is very keen on SNR I hope he would chime in with some REW plots when I start another thread to compare such graphs, just for fun..

One of the common problem I see in terms of what I referred as "logic" is that not too many people have dedicated HIFI/HT rooms that are acceptable quiet to tell the difference between SNR/DR of any more than 60 to 70 dB. Please note that even red book CD spec has 16 bit resolution, that is a whopping 96 dB of DR!

Below is my best noise floor measured a couple days ago, when I caught the moment it was totally quiet outside, that is no road and air traffic, and the fridge and HVAC are both off. So I guess even if I have golden ears (I know I don't, no silvery or even coppery ears..),I could not possible, logically speaking, tell the difference between an avr-x3400h and a separate Cambridge Audio preamp+Parasound Halo A21. No wonder I couldn't and I tried really hard.

 

[Verdinut]

Agreed, in addition, as mentioned many times by others, noise floor is another important factor and that's why audiophiles or even ordinary audioholics are so keen on SNR/DR specs and measurements. I know as least one, namely @AcuDefTechGuy is very keen on SNR I hope he would chime in with some REW plots when I start another thread to compare such graphs, just for fun..

One of the common problem I see in terms of what I referred as "logic" is that not too many people have dedicated HIFI/HT rooms that are acceptable quiet to tell the difference between SNR/DR of any more than 60 to 70 dB. Please note that even red book CD spec has 16 bit resolution, that is a whopping 96 dB of DR!

Below is my best noise floor measured a couple days ago, when I caught the moment it was totally quiet outside, that is no road and air traffic, and the fridge and HVAC are both off. So I guess even if I have golden ears (I know I don't, no silvery or even coppery ears..),I could not possible, logically speaking, tell the difference between an avr-x3400h and a separate Cambridge Audio preamp+Parasound Halo A21. No wonder I couldn't and I tried really hard.


View attachment 31469

From the results provided by the above figures, I agree in that any gear with a SNR of 60 dB or more would be acceptable for all practical purposes in a typical home environment. Products from popular brands easily meet that criterion anyway.

 

[PENG]

From the results provided by the above figures, I agree in that any gear with a SNR of 60 dB or more would be acceptable for all practical purposes in a typical home environment. Products from popular brands easily meet that criterion anyway.

I might add, as long as it is 60 at 1 W or lower output.

 

[Verdinut]

I might add, as long as it is 60 at 1 W or lower output.

That would mean a noise level of 0.000001 of a watt or less for a 1 watt output. Nobody would ear that for sure. Isn't that somehow overkill?

 

[lovinthehd]

And that means what exactly? My ears worked the entire time, when I ran Audyssey incorrectly it sounded bad by ears. When I finally ran it right, it sounded good by my ears. Ears never fail. I think people get to lost in the graphs and charts. When the simple question to be answered in, how does it sound by your ears?

Ears aren't all that reliable as far as I'm concerned, especially when they're not mine. Ears can indeed fail. Wait until you get older, LOL.

 

[Hetfield]

Ears aren't all that reliable as far as I'm concerned, especially when they're not mine. Ears can indeed fail. Wait until you get older, LOL.

Then no point in having a home theater at that point.

 

[Pogre]

And that means what exactly? My ears worked the entire time, when I ran Audyssey incorrectly it sounded bad by ears. When I finally ran it right, it sounded good by my ears. Ears never fail. I think people get to lost in the graphs and charts. When the simple question to be answered in, how does it sound by your ears?

Placebo effect. It's real. If that's good enough for you then you're more fortunate than some of us who prefer looking at things objectively. I know when I bought a separate amplifier I couldn't detect any difference whatsoever in sound quality. IIRC, you claimed "night and day" difference. Who's right? How do you tell? Data tends to support my opinion, but again, perception is individual and interpreted differently by everyone. I completely believe you when you say you can hear a difference. Placebo and expectation bias are very powerful and affects all of us to some extent or another.

Last week when I dusted and used a detailer on my speakers I got them shined up and looking so nice I swear they even sounded better. Do they really sound better? Probably not, but I'll take it anyway.

 

[Hetfield]

Placebo effect. It's real. If that's good enough for you then you're more fortunate than some of us who prefer looking at things objectively. I know when I bought a separate amplifier I couldn't detect any difference whatsoever in sound quality. IIRC, you claimed "night and day" difference. Who's right? How do you tell? Data tends to support my opinion, but again, perception is individual and interpreted differently by everyone. I completely believe you when you say you can hear a difference. Placebo and expectation bias are very powerful and affects all of us to some extent or another.

Last week when I dusted and used a detailer on my speakers I got them shined up and looking so nice I swear they even sounded better. Do they really sound better? Probably not, but I'll take it anyway.

All I'm saying is people get lost in the weeds, what sounds good to you? Listen and make a decision.
Like over thinking in baseball. Yeah you can go over your swing over and over again with the batting coach but at the end of the day it's see the ball, hit the ball.
You can have graphs and charts and specific tests but it still comes down to how does it sound to your ears.

 

[Pogre]

All I'm saying is people get lost in the weeds, what sounds good to you? Listen and make a decision.
Like over thinking in baseball. Yeah you can go over your swing over and over again with the batting coach but at the end of the day it's see the ball, hit the ball.
You can have graphs and charts and specific tests but it still comes down to how does it sound to your ears.

Sure. I don't disagree with you. I like to use both really. If my ears are telling me it sounds good and I take a measurement, then I have a visual picture of what sounds good to me. If something sounds off I can take a measurement and based on what I know worked for me before, I can use that measurement to see where my ears are having a problem in the fr or where the differences might lie.

 

[Pogre]

All I'm saying is people get lost in the weeds, what sounds good to you? Listen and make a decision.
Like over thinking in baseball. Yeah you can go over your swing over and over again with the batting coach but at the end of the day it's see the ball, hit the ball.
You can have graphs and charts and specific tests but it still comes down to how does it sound to your ears.

Here's another way to look at it. Before I got a Umik mic and REW, as far as I was concerned everything sounded great. When I took some sweeps and saw there was opportunity I made some adjustments and everything objectively measured better, which then subjectively sounded better. I would not have known improvements could be made until I measured my fr. I would not have thought or known to make any improvements if I hadn't taken the objective measurements and seen the results.