Will an external amp boost just volume, or improve overall sound quality?

[MacManNM]

I've had many receivers in my setup and never once heard one clip, even during these sudden transients. Your 20db peak you talk about would be mostly from the front left/right speakers in a 5.1 setup. So you'd be asking the receiver to produce 64watts per channel for the fronts. A demand that mid to high end receivers would have no problem producing. Checkout the benchmarks here on audioholics.(eg: Yamaha 2600: 122w 2ch/8ohm)

Adding a 20dB peak to 1 watt is 100 watts.

 

[highfihoney]

Good morning to you too, thanks for clarifying it. So I take it you don't have issue with those who based on their own listening experience, reporting that they could not hear much difference between certain gear. I share your view about the google thing, most people know how to do it. People come here to hear others "experience". Other than that, they can google on their own. I do appreciate those who provide interesting links though, especial the ones that are hard to google up. It saves me time.

hi peng,as long as a person is reporting what they hear or from their own experience's i think that their information is valid even if its to report that they heard nothing,its honest info at that point & is helpful to everybody.

way too many newer hobbiest's get confused by the nay sayers who insist that some kind of burden of proof be laid at their feet for "everything",a guy comes to the forums to find out how to get better performance/sound from his rig & is confronted by countless dbt links & statements copied & pasted from manufacturers & ends up more confused than when he first started thinking about better sound.

this type of posting & recomending is no different than the die hard audiophiles who fill peoples heads full of garbage when they recomend buying exotic $1,000 cables to correct a weak bass response or a new $600 aftermarket power cord to enhance their preamps sonics.

 

[Pyrrho]

Let's say that I am currently using a Yamaha RX-V2500.

Let's also say that I am using some Axioms in 5.1:

M60 for mains
M3ti for surrounds
VP100 center
EP350 sub

Now then, will adding an external amp at about 150 wpc/constant improve sound quality, or just volume? I am using a pretty large space, about 2200ft^3, and the 2500 can only do about 60-70 wpc/all 5 driven.

Now, if I added an amp just for the main speakers, would that make my sound lopsided? Or could I utilize the receiver's equalizing (auto and manual) to take care of any such side effects? Thanks.

*btw, awesome forum...my new favorite*

If you are not driving your receiver to clipping, there will probably be no audible difference. However, if you are, then it will make a difference.

Adding an amplifier for just the main speakers would enable the receiver to deliver more power to the channels you are using.

If the receiver is functioning properly, and if you add a decent amplifier, there will be no need to use an equalizer to make them match each other; both will deliver a flat frequency response.

Now, with most surround sound recordings, you do not have equal levels in all channels at the same instant, so "all channels driven" equally is an unlikely scenario.

 

[Pyrrho]

no offense to anybody but this is stupid.

all the guys who preach that a difference cant be heard running external amps kill me,every last post i have ever seen from the nay sayers is without merit because it is NEVER based on experience but they all cling to the google linked dbt tests like they are the holy grail of hifi & quote terms like "emperical evidince" or "testing protocol" or even "quantifiable",who is trying to prove what here, the guys who have tried it both ways & heard a difference or the guys who have never tried anything & desperately cling to google links to reinforce their position ?

who's position on this subject is more self serving i wonder ?

one thing i know for sure is that people who are willing to try new things within their own systems will benifit by gaining personal experience & better sounding rigs & those who read everything in sight trying to convince themselves & others that the gear they own cant be bested will never gain one ounce of knowledge (other than quoting specs) nor will they achieve the next level of performance.

Ah, yes, the trust your ears school of thought. Well, what about those listening tests in which the tester claims to change something that the golden ears types imagine will matter, but does not really change anything, and yet they swear to hear the difference? Subjective listening without proper controls is completely useless for determining whether there is really a difference or not. But, hey, a true subjectivist never lets facts get in the way of their opinions.

Oh yeah, this is self serving; I make a lot of money not selling anything to anyone. Right.

For such listening tests to be meaningful at all, they must be level matched and double blind. Without BOTH of these, the results will be useless.

 

[MDS]

I was going to stay out of this because it is the same old debate, but alas I cannot.

Rather than comment on whether an amp makes a difference or not (I haven't had one in more than 15 years so some will say I have no 'experience' with it and therefore my opinion is not valid), instead I just want to comment on the twisted logic I see time and again.

In addition to the 'trust your ears' school of thought Pyrrho mentioned, we have the 'google link' argument; ie some people just blindly post google links and don't have any experience so they can't possibly know what they are talking about.

What if you googled for links on optics and the principles of reflection and refraction and you found all kinds of links to studies that show why the eye perceives the pipe in the water to bend when any sane person knows it does not? Based on the google link argument, some posters would have us believe that such links have no merit because they 'trust their eyes' and everyone posting links to the optics studies are fools that blindly accept google links as proof while the other truly enlightened few know from 'experience' that the pipe does truly bend because they witnessed it with their own eyes.

It's simple: If you like external amps and you believe it makes a difference to your ears in your environment, then more power to you - buy the biggest, most expensive amp you can get. Just don't discount the overwhelming evidence that it just *might* not make all that much of a difference.

 

[The Numenorian]

One lesson that keeps recurring in my mind is that, when it all comes down to it, my home theater setup is all about entertainment and enjoyment. And when it comes to whether or not I should invest in a specific type or model of equipment, it all comes down to this: will it make my speakers sound better? If the price is right, and it does, then I'll take it. If it doesn't make a difference, then I don't need it for my enjoyment and entertainment. There's my two cents on this new issue...have at it.

 

[Buckle-meister]

Today’s receivers drive many channels, and they need a little help for the workhorse channels.

Can you elaborate on this please MacManNM? Is there a single amplifier in a receiver that all channels 'draw' from, or does each channel have its own individual amplifier section?

 

[jaxvon]

Can you elaborate on this please MacManNM? Is there a single amplifier in a receiver that all channels 'draw' from, or does each channel have its own individual amplifier section?

Each channel has its own amplifier section, but they all draw from the same power supply caps and transformer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

not accurate? wrong, highly accurate

you are correct that the amps metering system is needle based but thats where your assumptions stop being correct,not only will they show instantanious response but they will show instantanious response up to 4,800 watts into any ohm & do it as accurately as any laboratory grade measuring device.

The meter has lag time in it. How well are the marks on the meter designated? No interpolation required? Your eyes has lag time to acquire that indication, and then to scan over to a SPL meter that also has a lag time, that really has more lag time getting into the seconds range. Are you telling me that you can see the instant that the power needle is peaking and at the same instant the SPL meter is reading? Please.

 

[Buckle-meister]

Each channel has its own amplifier section, but they all draw from the same power supply caps and transformer.

Then my question still stands (I think). If each channel has its own amplifier, how do they need 'helped out'? How is this any different from having separate amps? The mains can only deliver a finite amout of electricity whether it's to a receiver or a series of amps no?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I was going to stay out of this because it is the same old debate, but alas I cannot.

Rather than comment on whether an amp makes a difference or not (I haven't had one in more than 15 years so some will say I have no 'experience' with it and therefore my opinion is not valid), instead I just want to comment on the twisted logic I see time and again.

In addition to the 'trust your ears' school of thought Pyrrho mentioned, we have the 'google link' argument; ie some people just blindly post google links and don't have any experience so they can't possibly know what they are talking about.

What if you googled for links on optics and the principles of reflection and refraction and you found all kinds of links to studies that show why the eye perceives the pipe in the water to bend when any sane person knows it does not? Based on the google link argument, some posters would have us believe that such links have no merit because they 'trust their eyes' and everyone posting links to the optics studies are fools that blindly accept google links as proof while the other truly enlightened few know from 'experience' that the pipe does truly bend because they witnessed it with their own eyes.

It's simple: If you like external amps and you believe it makes a difference to your ears in your environment, then more power to you - buy the biggest, most expensive amp you can get. Just don't discount the overwhelming evidence that it just *might* not make all that much of a difference.

Great post as usual.
Every person MUST place their hand on that glowing burner to have that first hand experience to talk about.
We much consult the psychics first hand to know. That holistic healer must be used to make sure they are legitimate healers. Must dowse for that buried pipe

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, I agree about the cable. If a speaker cable changes the sound, it's either doing something very odd (and arguably wrong), or the amp is being driven past the limit of stability, and is oversensitive to very minute changes (and should be replaced in that case.)

Don't agree about amps, though. With decently resolving speakers, they do sound different. I did a blinded trial with 3 quality amps from different, well known high end manufacturers, all with roughly the same wattage and damping specs, and all 3 people involved in the test could unfailingly identify which amp I was using, each time.

Electronics aren't the end all and be all of good sound, as some seem to think, but they do matter.

And these three 'golden ears' could not tell audible differences with drastically different amps, in their own setup

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

And, other historical DBTs show mostly that they are the same

 

[mtrycrafts]

I was looking at a Quad 405 on ebay and happened to come across this quote, which I hadn't heard before:

"All amplifiers sound the same" - Peter Walker

- http://www.quadesl.org/Amplifiers/amplifiers.html.

Wikipedia expands on this:

'It is worth noting that Quad always had a very straight forward engineering view of their products and insisted that all amplifiers sound the same when used within their capabilities, and that speaker cable has no sound at all (unless ludicrously long and thin wire is used).'

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_(audio)

Quad conducted a DBT testing of amps many years ago, 576 trials, mostly the same, when they were different, it was obvious why, or they were not in spec amps. No mystery to the issues of differences.

The key above is this:
when used within their capabilities

 

[mulester7]

.....come on, all you no-basis google-science slave-amp nay-sayers, let's be buddies......

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mulester77/detail?.dir=86a3&.dnm=dc6dre2.jpg&.src=ph

 

[racquetman]

.....come on, all you no-basis google-science slave-amp nay-sayers, let's be buddies......

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mulester77/detail?.dir=86a3&.dnm=dc6dre2.jpg&.src=ph

They're going to be buddies for about 5 more seconds. Then the kitten is going to unleash the fury (like Chuck Norris)!!

 

[Nick250]

I was going to stay out of this because it is the same old debate, but alas I cannot.

Rather than comment on whether an amp makes a difference or not (I haven't had one in more than 15 years so some will say I have no 'experience' with it and therefore my opinion is not valid), instead I just want to comment on the twisted logic I see time and again.

In addition to the 'trust your ears' school of thought Pyrrho mentioned, we have the 'google link' argument; ie some people just blindly post google links and don't have any experience so they can't possibly know what they are talking about.

What if you googled for links on optics and the principles of reflection and refraction and you found all kinds of links to studies that show why the eye perceives the pipe in the water to bend when any sane person knows it does not? Based on the google link argument, some posters would have us believe that such links have no merit because they 'trust their eyes' and everyone posting links to the optics studies are fools that blindly accept google links as proof while the other truly enlightened few know from 'experience' that the pipe does truly bend because they witnessed it with their own eyes.

It's simple: If you like external amps and you believe it makes a difference to your ears in your environment, then more power to you - buy the biggest, most expensive amp you can get. Just don't discount the overwhelming evidence that it just *might* not make all that much of a difference.

I have read through all the posts in this tread and others about external amps and this one registers A+++ for me. Kudos to MDS for this post.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have read through all the posts in this tread and others about external amps and this one registers A+++ for me. Kudos to MDS for this post.

Yes, he has a talent to group words in such an order that it makes lot of sense

 

[tbewick]

.....guys who have purchased quality slave power post their positive hearings, and are instantly jumped on with google link teaching by persons who only have google links for reference, telling them they didn't hear any such thing....does this make the guys who posted hearings want to offer any follow-up?....of course not....they take the attitude of "who cares?", since they have found what they were seeking, and don't really care to listen to any more unfounded flack.....

If I had the money, I probably would buy a very expensive amp, but based on my experience with cheaper amps, I won't expect a huge difference. I think most people would agree that speakers can sound hugely different. Isn't a fair question to ask, 'why do amplifiers sound different?' I've seen test data of how speakers introduce distortion, but I haven't seen test data for amplifiers. Can you see my problem here? I don't have a clue how amplifiers work, and in my mind, the more powerful the amplifier is, the louder you can play your music. Speaker companies say that the demands made on an amp are very complex and that the power handling requirements are actually quite difficult to specify. I'm sure that this is true, but this isn't all that helpful when it comes to buying equipment, all with the intention of having a good system which works well together. All of my experience with hi-fi leads me to believe that speakers make most of the difference. I'm sure hifihoney's amps are brilliant, but I'm not sold on the idea of buying an expensive amp. Even if I was, I don't have that kind of money. I'd rather buy something else, like some new speakers, because then at least I'll hear a major improvement/change.

also, guys who were "considering" posting hearings, decide not to, knowing what they'll receive....is this really that difficult to see?....there's always someone who shows up, usually the same two or three, to say quality amps make no difference who have only seen them online....they've learned just enough from google links to be dangerous....they rattle off a little theory about 3db increases and watts are watts no matter what, not having a clue if better sound quality is out there to be had relatively inexpensively....their opinion is formed by reading posts at this and other sites, by people that refute amps who also don't have a clue past online....I'm speaking of posts by persons that use a lot of smiley and winky faces as they talk negatively and offer nothing positive, desperately defending their all-channels-driven 40-50 watt receivers that double as distorted space-heaters at any decent volume level...it gets old, and makes you not even want to mess with amp threads....the larger difference in sound quality happens at the pre-amp level anyway when you get into seperates, but why "wouldn't" a quality dedicated amplifier with build-quality geared to "ONLY" amplify, do a better job?.....

As I said earlier, I've never owned one of these very expensive amps and therefore have no experience with them. How many watts do you need? How much money should you spend? I don't have a clue and I can't be bothered to think about it. I do find it a pain though seeing What Hi-Fi? saying 'A/V receivers sound worse with music... CD players need break-in... these speaker cables sound open and bright...' Isn't hi-fi a science? Do Bowers and Wilkins design their speakers by only listening to them? Of course they don't, they use advanced physics, engineering and computer technology to make their speakers. Do Krell and Quad listen to every resistor in their amps to check for differences? Do they break-in their electrolytes? Where does this non-scientific approach stop?

 

[Buckle-meister]

...he has a talent...

Agreed. MDS writes with great brevity.

 

[Nick250]

With all due respect Mule exchange expensive boutique speaker wire for amplifier and your post is exactly what the supporters of expensive speaker wire post. And they get a lot of heat in this forum, as they should IMO. AH is not a mutual admiration society but a forum for an exchange of ideas and opinions.

.....yes, Nick, it was a good post that had a few good points....the pipe bending part had no practical relevance to what the ears hear, but here's what it really boils down to on the bullet-train to Realityville.....

.....guys who have purchased quality slave power post their positive hearings, and are instantly jumped on with google link teaching by persons who only have google links for reference, telling them they didn't hear any such thing....does this make the guys who posted hearings want to offer any follow-up?....of course not....they take the attitude of "who cares?", since they have found what they were seeking, and don't really care to listen to any more unfounded flack.....also, guys who were "considering" posting hearings, decide not to, knowing what they'll receive....is this really that difficult to see?....there's always someone who shows up, usually the same two or three, to say quality amps make no difference who have only seen them online....they've learned just enough from google links to be dangerous....they rattle off a little theory about 3db increases and watts are watts no matter what, not having a clue if better sound quality is out there to be had relatively inexpensively....their opinion is formed by reading posts at this and other sites, by people that refute amps who also don't have a clue past online....I'm speaking of posts by persons that use a lot of smiley and winky faces as they talk negatively and offer nothing positive, desperately defending their all-channels-driven 40-50 watt receivers that double as distorted space-heaters at any decent volume level...it gets old, and makes you not even want to mess with amp threads....the larger difference in sound quality happens at the pre-amp level anyway when you get into seperates, but why "wouldn't" a quality dedicated amplifier with build-quality geared to "ONLY" amplify, do a better job?.....