Will an external amp boost just volume, or improve overall sound quality?

highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
PENG said:
Did you own the 802D or the 802? If I remember correctly you are not a fan it. I have not listened to any 802 but I really like the 802D. It was great overall but the violin sound was intoxicating yet so sweet. That being said, as we all know by now, this sound quality thing is a highly subjective matter.

hi peng,i had the 802d's,it wasnt that the b&w's were a bad speaker just not my cup of tea,i find that the sound from all b&w speakers is too bright for me & the bass isnt as strong as i like.

i will go as far as saying when i was trying out different amplifiers with them a krell ksa 150 drove them more to my liking over the mc 1201 monoblocks,it seemed to me that the krell awoke something in the speakers that i couldnt replicate with any of my other amps.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
PENG said:
I'll try and do that when I am alone in the house because I don't want anyone to get heart attack. I would use ear plugs this time and get it up to the same SPL level from 4 meters away. Really, people who listen to music at loud level regularly should consult an audiologist or a doctor, about the adverse effects on their hearing. 96 dB SPL is pretty scarely to me. Anyway, I'll get back to you once I have the results.

That's great, thanks. Then we'll know something about power levels at these dynamic spikes.
Very good advice about the hearing, loud spl levels. I cannot imagine running a 100dB spl sensitive speakers with many watts at average levels as hifihon indicates and at full blast with his huge amps. No wonder I cannot crack a watt at friends place and be it comfortable:rolleyes:
I don't think I'd enjoy standing next to a jet in afterburners, no protection.:mad:
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
Very good advice about the hearing, loud spl levels. I cannot imagine running a 100dB spl sensitive speakers with many watts at average levels as hifihon indicates and at full blast with his huge amps.
i'd be mad if i could hear what you said :)

the thing about imagination is that its never as good as the real thing.
 
Last edited:
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
I cannot imagine running a 100dB spl sensitive speakers with many watts at average levels as hifihon indicates and at full blast with his huge amps.
I agree, especially since it was hignfihoney that started the thread "whats your idea of loud music." I'm all for saving my one set of ears...as I can appreciate imaging, spacialization, and the nuances of sound at lower and lower decibels as I mature, and most probably in the interest of "saving my drums."

But the real reason I posted was I think you're doing a disservice to highfihoney: "his huge amps." In retrospect, you may be more politically correct in your mis-engenderization of her, as I am sure the ACLU would be all over a post of "[B]her[/B] huge amps." There's a mental image a Buddhist monk would be hard-pressed to quell.

Anyhow, no offense to anyone...that's another politically incorrect statement. How can you possibly offend anyone by charcterizing him/her as feminine. Just an aside...Monday morning humor and quipping.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
This whole argument is ridiculous. The thought that you only need a couple of watts to maintain a sane listening level is stupid. Most music has a tremendous amount of dynamic range. To get the transient peaks, you need that extra power in your back pocket. If you have ever done serious listening, you will know that 10 watts is not enough. Heck with today’s receivers, if you are listening at 10 watts, you barely have 10dB of headroom. This is not enough in my opinion. My 2500 will not drive my XR16’s. It doesn’t have the constitution for it. If I want to sit and listen to background music then it works fine. But to serious listening, I need more headroom. The sound from the 2500 is thin and compressed, I can hear it clip. When I use my Proton with it, the soundstage opens up, and the music is more detailed and accurate. This is because the proton has the headroom to drive my speakers, whereas the Yamaha does not. Guys like ht addict crack me up. You say power is nothing, yet you have a flagship receiver that essentially has 7 separate power amps in it, and you have your mains bi-amped! If you are going to preach, at least practice it.
 
T

tbewick

Senior Audioholic
MacManNM said:
This whole argument is ridiculous. The thought that you only need a couple of watts to maintain a sane listening level is stupid. Most music has a tremendous amount of dynamic range.
The pop music I've digitally extracted only usually has around 6-8 dB of dynamic range (average volume to peak volume). Classical music can have more than this.

MacManNM said:
To get the transient peaks, you need that extra power in your back pocket. If you have ever done serious listening, you will know that 10 watts is not enough. Heck with today’s receivers, if you are listening at 10 watts, you barely have 10dB of headroom. This is not enough in my opinion.
90 dB in the home is meant to be very very loud. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, a 100 watt amp driving reasonably efficient speakers can manage this. This probably is meant for when you are sitting a reasonable distance from the speakers.

Dolby recommend to music mixing studios 3 dB of amp headroom:

www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/4_Multichannel_Music_Mixing.pdf

MacManNM said:
My 2500 will not drive my XR16’s. It doesn’t have the constitution for it. If I want to sit and listen to background music then it works fine. But to serious listening, I need more headroom. The sound from the 2500 is thin and compressed, I can hear it clip. When I use my Proton with it, the soundstage opens up, and the music is more detailed and accurate.
According to Rane, the audibility of clipping is less than is commonly thought. This is because the bass component usually clips before the higher frequencies.

http://www.rane.com/note128.html

MacManNM said:
When I use my Proton with it, the soundstage opens up, and the music is more detailed and accurate.
This may indicate that the treble component is clipping with one amplifier.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
tbewick said:
The pop music I've digitally extracted only usually has around 6-8 dB of dynamic range (average volume to peak volume). Classical music can have more than this.
What did you use to measure this? How did you calculate the RMS? Did you use FFT analysis? I happen to Know for a fact that Telearc Time warp has almost 90dB of dynamic range. I believe your measurements are off.


tbewick said:
90 dB in the home is meant to be very very loud. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, a 100 watt amp driving reasonably efficient speakers can manage this. This probably is meant for when you are sitting a reasonable distance from the speakers.
I don't use the Encyclopedia Britannica for my audio, that's kind of like using a chilton manual to fix your Ferrari. In any case, if you are listening to 90dB speakers, with 1 watt into them, @ 4m away the level is 78dB SPL. That is not loud, nor is that far away from the speakers. I typically sit at least 6m away from my 2 ch setup.

tbewick said:
Dolby recommend to music mixing studios 3 dB of amp headroom:

www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/4_Multichannel_Music_Mixing.pdf



According to Rane, the audibility of clipping is less than is commonly thought. This is because the bass component usually clips before the higher frequencies.

http://www.rane.com/note128.html
I have digitized the output of my 2500 and seen it clip. I have measured clipping as low as 26Vrms @ 2kHz during demanding passes of music.


tbewick said:
This may indicate that the treble component is clipping with one amplifier.
Because the receiver doesn't have the headroom.
 
ht_addict

ht_addict

Audioholic
MacManNM said:
This whole argument is ridiculous. The thought that you only need a couple of watts to maintain a sane listening level is stupid.
This argument is not ridiculous, whats ridiculous is that you just can't admit at normal listening levels your only using a few watts. If you don't want too believe it thats fine, its your perogative.

MacManNM said:
Most music has a tremendous amount of dynamic range. To get the transient peaks, you need that extra power in your back pocket. If you have ever done serious listening, you will know that 10 watts is not enough. Heck with today’s receivers, if you are listening at 10 watts, you barely have 10dB of headroom. This is not enough in my opinion.
Definition of Transient as pretaining to this topic: A short sudden surge of voltage or current.

MacManNM said:
My 2500 will not drive my XR16’s. It doesn’t have the constitution for it. If I want to sit and listen to background music then it works fine. But to serious listening, I need more headroom. The sound from the 2500 is thin and compressed, I can hear it clip. When I use my Proton with it, the soundstage opens up, and the music is more detailed and accurate. This is because the proton has the headroom to drive my speakers, whereas the Yamaha does not.
Thats a big difference over a previous thread in which you said
"This thing was really simple to setup, and it sounds pretty darn good. The YPAO is easy to use and it gets you pretty close (make sure the house is dead quiet). I was amazed how good my system sounded even without any tweaking. I'm not really pushing any hard load with this unit, but the bit of listening I did, the unit was very dynamic and well controlled.
So what is it then? Thin or dynamic:confused:

MacManNM said:
Guys like ht addict crack me up. You say power is nothing, yet you have a flagship receiver that essentially has 7 separate power amps in it, and you have your mains bi-amped! If you are going to preach, at least practice it.
And your point is? What I own has no bearing on what I think. If you have to justify your beliefs by what you own. Its your perogative.:rolleyes:
 
ht_addict

ht_addict

Audioholic
MacManNM said:
I don't use the Encyclopedia Britannica for my audio, that's kind of like using a chilton manual to fix your Ferrari. In any case, if you are listening to 90dB speakers, with 1 watt into them, @ 4m away the level is 78dB SPL. That is not loud, nor is that far away from the speakers. I typically sit at least 6m away from my 2 ch setup.
Using the same spl calculator sitting 90db/6m/8watts with 2 speakers(placement not considered) you get 87.2db. Pretty loud to me. According to the Academy of Pediatrics and the National Campaign for Hearing Health states 85 dB is the threshold for dangerous levels of noise.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
ht_addict said:
This argument is not ridiculous, whats ridiculous is that you just can't admit at normal listening levels your only using a few watts. If you don't want too believe it thats fine, its your perogative.



Definition of Transient as pretaining to this topic: A short sudden surge of voltage or current.
Normal listening levels are background music. I have no idea what type of music you listen to, but the music I listen to is very dynamic and requires lots of headroom to handle the dynamics inherent to it. Yes that is the definition of transient. My Xr16's are claimed to be 89dB, and yet I seem to always be putting a ton of power into them to listen at any reasonable level. More goes into this discussion than pure SPL at the seating position. There is ambient noise, room acoustics and a host of other factors. My listening room is well treated and very dead. I was listening to Telearc 1812 the other day, my meters were at ~12w rms, during the dynamic peaks my +6dB lights were flickering. That is 13dB higher than the RMS, equivalent to ~500w of transient output. Any of the non-flagship receivers would have been clipping, degrading sound.

ht_addict said:
Thats a big difference over a previous thread in which you said

So what is it then? Thin or dynamic:confused:

And your point is? What I own has no bearing on what I think. If you have to justify your beliefs by what you own. Its your perogative.:rolleyes:
That was posted 2 days after I got the receiver. I hadn't done the complete setup as of that time; also I wasn't trying to run my XR speakers with it. I was running a pair of older HPM 100's and a pair of homebuilt units of mine, running the crossover at 80 Hz. As soon As I defeated the sub, the unit struggled in straight 2ch mode.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
ht_addict said:
Using the same spl calculator sitting 90db/6m/8watts with 2 speakers(placement not considered) you get 87.2db. Pretty loud to me. According to the Academy of Pediatrics and the National Campaign for Hearing Health states 85 dB is the threshold for dangerous levels of noise.
Apples and oranges. I am talking about dynamic music and the reason you need dynamic headroom, you are talking about RMS levels and hearing loss. Not even the same ballpark.
 
T

tbewick

Senior Audioholic
MacManNM said:
What did you use to measure this? How did you calculate the RMS? Did you use FFT analysis? I happen to Know for a fact that Telearc Time warp has almost 90dB of dynamic range. I believe your measurements are off.
I made these measurements using the statistical analysis on Cool Edit. As these data are in the digital domain, they are likely to be highly accurate. Most recordings do not have as large a dynamic range as 90 dB. In fact it is good that they don't, because such an enormous dynamic range would be totally unsuitable for playback in the average home.


MacManNM said:
I don't use the Encyclopedia Britannica for my audio, that's kind of like using a chilton manual to fix your Ferrari. In any case, if you are listening to 90dB speakers, with 1 watt into them, @ 4m away the level is 78dB SPL. That is not loud, nor is that far away from the speakers. I typically sit at least 6m away from my 2 ch setup.
I referred to that source because it is likely to be reliable. According to the Bowers and Wilkins web site:-

'We quote the frequency range over which the 2nd and 3rd harmonic components are below 1% (or -40dB) of the fundamental when the speaker is giving a level of 90dB spl at 1m, which is pretty loud. With our more expensive speakers, we sometimes quote a lower distortion limit too, but we always use the 1% figure across the board for comparison. Obviously, the lower the distortion the better.'

- http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/local.faq/ObjectID/F5CA2ECD-3D20-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37

MacManNM said:
I have digitized the output of my 2500 and seen it clip. I have measured clipping as low as 26Vrms @ 2kHz during demanding passes of music.
Small amounts of clipping is meant to be inaudible. Also, seeing as clipping will occur first in the bass region, it will be made less audible because the ear is less sensitive to distortion at these frequencies.

The main reason that studios use high power amplifiers is that monitoring will likely be done at very high peak playback levels. Indeed, the Dolby reference I gave earlier suggests a studio system capacity for 120 dB SPL. These playback levels would not be encountered in the typical home. The main reason for this is that in the studio, producers are dealing with uncompressed music, which could have very large, sudden increases in volume. They need high power amplifiers not so much for sound quality, but to prevent their monitor speakers from being damaged, specifically the tweeters. As music is compressed so that it can be played back on less than reference quality equipment (and not in a controlled, acoustically treated studio environment), the average volume wil increase compared to uncompressed sources. An example is the compression of cymbals in pop music. This gives the cymbal a 'fat and funky' sound, as I'm sure anyone who've listened to pop music will confirm. An uncompressed cymbal played back at realistic volume would too much for most playback equipment to reproduce.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
tbewick said:
I made these measurements using the statistical analysis on Cool Edit. As these data are in the digital domain, they are likely to be highly accurate. Most recordings do not have as large a dynamic range as 90 dB. In fact it is good that they don't, because such an enormous dynamic range would be totally unsuitable for playback in the average home.
That doesn't tell me how you did the analysis. Did you perform a FFT and Integtate over a region? I am simply trying to understand how you came to this conclusion.



tbewick said:
Small amounts of clipping is meant to be inaudible. Also, seeing as clipping will occur first in the bass region, it will be made less audible because the ear is less sensitive to distortion at these frequencies.

The main reason that studios use high power amplifiers is that monitoring will likely be done at very high peak playback levels. Indeed, the Dolby reference I gave earlier suggests a studio system capacity for 120 dB SPL. These playback levels would not be encountered in the typical home. The main reason for this is that in the studio, producers are dealing with uncompressed music, which could have very large, sudden increases in volume. They need high power amplifiers not so much for sound quality, but to prevent their monitor speakers from being damaged, specifically the tweeters. As music is compressed so that it can be played back on less than reference quality equipment (and not in a controlled, acoustically treated studio environment), the average volume wil increase compared to uncompressed sources. An example is the compression of cymbals in pop music. This gives the cymbal a 'fat and funky' sound, as I'm sure anyone who've listened to pop music will confirm. An uncompressed cymbal played back at realistic volume would too much for most playback equipment to reproduce.
Clipping in any form creates distortion. It pretty much turns the waveform into a square wave, and as we all know a square wave has an infinite amount of harmonics. Hence the clipping will happen at the lower frequencies, but affect the higher frequencies.

Are you saying that studios have high power amps because the clipping might hurt the tweeters?
 
T

tbewick

Senior Audioholic
MacManNM said:
That doesn't tell me how you did the analysis. Did you perform a FFT and Integtate over a region? I am simply trying to understand how you came to this conclusion.
I'm sorry, but I don't know how Cool Edit does the Statistical Analysis function. Since the function is performed entirely digitally, I can't see any reason for it being inaccurate. It is only a case for the maths to be done right. Just by inspection of the waveform, you can see that modern pop recordings are usually very highly compressed. If you want, I'll post some screenshots of this.

MacManNM said:
Clipping in any form creates distortion. It pretty much turns the waveform into a square wave, and as we all know a square wave has an infinite amount of harmonics. Hence the clipping will happen at the lower frequencies, but affect the higher frequencies.

Are you saying that studios have high power amps because the clipping might hurt the tweeters?
The Rane note I linked to earlier has more about this. Reading it, my impression was that clipping is not usually audible because the bass content clips first. I know what you are saying, but I think the key thing that the Rane note says is that clipping isn't very audible. This is why people (they are most likely referring to mixers) are quite happy to keep turning the volume up all they way until the tweeter finally blows. It is because the distortion created by bass clipping is not very audible. I don't know enough about this subject to give a better explanation. This is surely why most material is compressed in studio - no producer wants the home listener to damage their speakers. Telarc are an exception to this and sometimes put a warning on their discs not turn the volume up too high on your first listen.

As I said on my previous post, with highly compressed pop music, I can't see how you could push your amplifier into clipping. The volume level you would need would be like standing next to a pneumatic drill. I could see how you could clip with a good classical recording, but clips would probably still be infrequent and therefore inaudible, that is unless you really cranked up the volume.

The Bowers and Wilkins site does support the view that some people, like hifihoney, have said, the idea that better amplifiers offer better bass performance. This, it says, is because more powerful amplifiers can better cope with speakers having large dips in impedance. After all, it is the low bass that is the most energetically demanding part to reproduce for the amplifier. I'm sure that mtrycrafts would point to double blind tests as showing that this is unimportant or too subtle a difference to be noticed. My own view is that at normal volumes, an average amplifier should manage perfectly well with most programme. If you want much more than 90 dB of low bass or room-shaking bass, then you'll most likely need a better amplifier or more efficient speakers. My own 30 watt Tannoy Lancaster speakers are quite efficient, and manage to produce enough bass for my needs.

B&W happily say that most of their speakers aren't suitable for disco-like, room-shaking bass. This is probably why they are used more for classical music than pop.
 
R

Reorx

Full Audioholic
PENG said:
I actually measured the current output from my 3805 into the woofers of my speakers that were bi-wired. At 96.5 dB SPL measured from 2 meters away, the highest I got it to go was approx. 3A using track one of Telarc's Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s. With a 200WPC slave amp, the current was almost exactly the same. The currents into the mid and high frequency drivers were much lower. I did this experiement after flip flopping between with and without the slave amp and could not hear much difference using 3 different pairs of speakers.

My little experiment seem to indicate that the Denon is not current (or power) limited for my needs and in my smallish 11.5X18X8 room. I am not sure it can push one of those B&W's. Regardless, I am also saving up for the 802D, or at least the 803D. When that day come, I hope my 300WPC amp can do the job.
HT ADDICT said:
Reorx, unless you were sitting in an anechoic chamber doing this test the results are useless.
So Peng's test is worthless as well? He wasnt in a anechoic chamber.
Time to start being consistant with your praises and slams.

Oh, btw, even though you might of missed it...
PENG said:
I did this experiement after flip flopping between with and without the slave amp and could not hear much difference using 3 different pairs of speakers.
Even though it wasnt much, he DID hear a difference. Now if he used a midfi receiver instead of his highend, I'm sure the difference would be more noticeble.

If you search the boards, you can find many people who can hear, and have heard the difference. Until the reviewers of Audioholics.com step forward and take a stance one way or another, it'll forever be an argument (debate).

Anyways, I agree with mule, I'm done posting on amp threads like this.

Reorx

ps: I tested 1 speaker, and only 1 speaker...with and without an external amp. At the same dB, I could hear a difference. But oh wait...I wasn't sitting in an anechoic chamber doing this test so the results are useless. lol. Real world vs Anechoic chamber benchmarks/comparisons...sounds like a future thread debate.
 
ht_addict

ht_addict

Audioholic
Reorx said:
So Peng's test is worthless as well? He wasnt in a anechoic chamber.
Time to start being consistant with your praises and slams.

Oh, btw, even though you might of missed it...
Even though it wasnt much, he DID hear a difference. Now if he used a midfi receiver instead of his highend, I'm sure the difference would be more noticeble.

If you search the boards, you can find many people who can hear, and have heard the difference. Until the reviewers of Audioholics.com step forward and take a stance one way or another, it'll forever be an argument (debate).

Anyways, I agree with mule, I'm done posting on amp threads like this.

Reorx

ps: I tested 1 speaker, and only 1 speaker...with and without an external amp. At the same dB, I could hear a difference. But oh wait...I wasn't sitting in an anechoic chamber doing this test so the results are useless. lol. Real world vs Anechoic chamber benchmarks/comparisons...sounds like a future thread debate.
Actually I believe Peng did his listening from the sweet spot, listening to both speakers hooked either to an amp or receiver. If you had done this instead off infront of one speaker hooked to a receiver then another 15ft apart hooked to an amp then I wouldn't have had a problem. The fact the your listening area was 15ft apart from each other, room accoustics would affect the sound you hear. Now your 100% correct that I or anyone can scan the forums and see that people hear a difference. I can do the same for interconnects, speaker wire, antivibration devices, etc, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean their right or wrong. Peng may have heard a minute difference, but the topic of this debate is to determine if adding an amp makes that difference worth while. Peng, myself and other don't think so.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
tbewick said:
I'm sorry, but I don't know how Cool Edit does the Statistical Analysis function. Since the function is performed entirely digitally, I can't see any reason for it being inaccurate. It is only a case for the maths to be done right. Just by inspection of the waveform, you can see that modern pop recordings are usually very highly compressed. If you want, I'll post some screenshots of this.



The Rane note I linked to earlier has more about this. Reading it, my impression was that clipping is not usually audible because the bass content clips first. I know what you are saying, but I think the key thing that the Rane note says is that clipping isn't very audible. This is why people (they are most likely referring to mixers) are quite happy to keep turning the volume up all they way until the tweeter finally blows. It is because the distortion created by bass clipping is not very audible. I don't know enough about this subject to give a better explanation. This is surely why most material is compressed in studio - no producer wants the home listener to damage their speakers. Telarc are an exception to this and sometimes put a warning on their discs not turn the volume up too high on your first listen.

As I said on my previous post, with highly compressed pop music, I can't see how you could push your amplifier into clipping. The volume level you would need would be like standing next to a pneumatic drill. I could see how you could clip with a good classical recording, but clips would probably still be infrequent and therefore inaudible, that is unless you really cranked up the volume.

The Bowers and Wilkins site does support the view that some people, like hifihoney, have said, the idea that better amplifiers offer better bass performance. This, it says, is because more powerful amplifiers can better cope with speakers having large dips in impedance. After all, it is the low bass that is the most energetically demanding part to reproduce for the amplifier. I'm sure that mtrycrafts would point to double blind tests as showing that this is unimportant or too subtle a difference to be noticed. My own view is that at normal volumes, an average amplifier should manage perfectly well with most programme. If you want much more than 90 dB of low bass or room-shaking bass, then you'll most likely need a better amplifier or more efficient speakers. My own 30 watt Tannoy Lancaster speakers are quite efficient, and manage to produce enough bass for my needs.

B&W happily say that most of their speakers aren't suitable for disco-like, room-shaking bass. This is probably why they are used more for classical music than pop.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't listen to pop music, so I have no idea if it is indeed compressed. The type of music I usually listen to is very dynamic, and I find that I need all of my amplifier and the headroom it has to offer. My goal with my sound system is to reproduce music as accurately as possible. I find that I end up needing a lot of power to do it.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
tbewick said:
The Bowers and Wilkins site does support the view that some people, like hifihoney, have said, the idea that better amplifiers offer better bass performance. This, it says, is because more powerful amplifiers can better cope with speakers having large dips in impedance. After all, it is the low bass that is the most energetically demanding part to reproduce for the amplifier. I'm sure that mtrycrafts would point to double blind tests as showing that this is unimportant or too subtle a difference to be noticed. My own view is that at normal volumes, an average amplifier should manage perfectly well with most programme. If you want much more than 90 dB of low bass or room-shaking bass, then you'll most likely need a better amplifier or more efficient speakers. My own 30 watt Tannoy Lancaster speakers are quite efficient, and manage to produce enough bass for my needs.

B&W happily say that most of their speakers aren't suitable for disco-like, room-shaking bass. This is probably why they are used more for classical music than pop.
hi tbewic, im not singeling you out but being that b&w is being used by a few as an information reference i wanted to point out something about b&w speakers being ran with different amps that i found out from running them, the upper model b&w's are efficient & will play very loud easily BUT they are very revealing,more so than most speakers ive used & might be part of why i didnt care for the sound.

wattage,spl's,subwoofers,room conditions & all other stuff aside i noticed huge differences in the sound at all levels with 2 different amps,i did not level match anything nor did i dbt anything but i know that i much prefered a 150 wpc krell class a amp with them over my "gigantic amps",the krell had deeper,cleaner & stronger bass & it also made the mids stand out more.

some can argue that i was under a placebo effect or that my protocol was bad or that the test wasn't fair because i used 1 class a amp & 1 class a/b amp but in the end i walked away knowing that the krell made them sound much better.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
The meter has lag time in it. How well are the marks on the meter designated? No interpolation required? Your eyes has lag time to acquire that indication, and then to scan over to a SPL meter that also has a lag time, that really has more lag time getting into the seconds range. Are you telling me that you can see the instant that the power needle is peaking and at the same instant the SPL meter is reading? Please.
would my answering these questions satisfy you,we both know it wont.

there is no amount of accuracy that ANY human being could ever have that would satisfy you,no matter how controled the average person tries to test anything you WILL claim some flaw in the test & drive it into the ground & if a flaw cant be found then your back to the dbt tests.

all this hobby is to you is rolled up in a series of dbt tests & constant arguments where you share NOTHING with the rest of the group & talk down to anybody who hears differences under the guise of smiley faces,either you dont have a clue how you talk to people or you gain much joy from it.

no sense in answering these questions as we both know the answers will lead right back in a circle.
 

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