Will an external amp boost just volume, or improve overall sound quality?

[highfihoney]

.....pie in the face on the first part, and you're getting warm on the second part....suggestion....experience with dedicated amps will make you more qualified to post on amp threads instead of posting what you've heard from receiver defenders/pushers....all I see here is unfounded comments desperately trying to defend a/your receiver....it really gets old reading posts putting down amps with no basis for credibility....do you not read all these posts by people who have bought and now own dedicated amps?....do you think they're lying?....you think they're stupid or half deaf?....you're applying reasoning from bum info instead of experiencing that which you dispute.....

....to you guys considering adding amps to whatever form of pre-amp....when a poster tries to speak with authority and says amps make no difference at "any" listening level, ask for his credentials of experience with dedicated slave amps....and, there's something about 200 watts and over, especially over, that doesn't happen with under 200, period....and sure, we're talking quality of build also, which will cost a little more.....no offense intended whatsoever in this post....but really, speak with experience, or you will be assigned no credibility from those who have any level of common sense to speak of......

morning mule,this post was right on track so i just had to copy the whole thing i agree 100%.

HT ADDICT.

i read your post but i dont have time to respond right now(off to work i go)but i will respond this evening.

have a great day

 

[flyv65]

Thanks for clarifying that you had both at your disposal to compare whether it was your 3805 or his and the Cary. I understand it wasn't controlled but let me ask, did you consider at least level matching the two setups, other than by ear? That alone would favor one over the other.

Yes, by all means, you liked one you bought it

I thought I posted that I brought my RS meter out with me, but I might have forgotten to say: sorry. I would sit on the sofa, same location for both setups, and bump the volume with the remote to 75 dB. For the record, it didn't take much bumping between the two setups, a couple of taps on the volume key, and I had the SPL set to slow "C".

Bryan...hope this makes it a bit clearer, still...

 

[highfihoney]

db meters,subwoofers,crossovers,mains.

So what db reading did you get on the meter? I've been their done that as well when I sold my NAD T773 to a fellow ht nut. After calibrating his setup which consisted of PSB Stratus Golds and Silvers with corresponding center(no sub) with my SPL meter(85db at "0" on the dial), we watched some of the action scenes from Fifth Element with the volume set to 0 on the dial. The meter never peaked over 95db. So I would have to say he wasn't using more than 1 watt per channel.

ok back to the point at hand,bringing out measurements from my personal rig is pointless,i can but it will not show whats causing you not to hear a difference but i have a good idea, what is your recievers crossover point set at,ill bet it is set very high & your sub is pulling all the weight.

bass notes take a whole lot more wattage to produce than any other end of the spectrum,the lower the bass response being produced the more watage it will take to achieve the same volume level.

by setting the recievers internal crossover to a high setting & telling the reciever that the main speakers are small it is cutting the bass response from the main speakers & handing off the signal to the subwoofer which in most cases has a much more capable & powerful amplifier so now all the recievers amp is driving is the mids & tweets which are extremely easy to drive & it takes very little wattage to drive any tweeter.

1 watt,you bet but what about the woofers in the mains and or rears that are now NOT being told to reproduce any bass notes,people account for this by letting the sub produce all of the low end bass response,is this a properly calibrated system or is it making the best out of the gear at hand? what happened to driving the woofers in the mains for a stereo bass response?

these issues with subwoofers & adjustable crossover settings lead many people to falsely believe that there are no differences in amps or recievers because the only peice of equipment that is actually running some real wattage is the subwoofer all the while they are cutting the throat of their mains by not allowing the woofers to do the job that they were intended to do.

try setting your crossover point to where its matched with the lowest response from your mains & setting the sub to pick up where the mains drop off & then see just how much wattage it really takes to drive the system,when you start driving woofers in any speaker it takes amps with big balls to do it effectively,this is the reason that most quality subwoofers have very powerful amplifiers in them.

to me a properly set up system that consists of mains,rears & a sub lets each set of speakers produce the full range that they were designed to do with the subwoofer kicking in & picking up where the mains have dropped off in bass response not where most of the bass response in the entire system is comming from the subwoofer.

when you let the full range signal flow to the mains you will easily see just how quickly the recievers amp starts to peter out, there is a big difference between a system that is set up to make the best of the gear at hand & a system that is set up for maximum performance.

 

[ruadmaa]

Separates/More Power Sounds Better???

.....pie in the face on the first part, and you're getting warm on the second part....suggestion....experience with dedicated amps will make you more qualified to post on amp threads instead of posting what you've heard from receiver defenders/pushers....all I see here is unfounded comments desperately trying to defend a/your receiver....it really gets old reading posts putting down amps with no basis for credibility....do you not read all these posts by people who have bought and now own dedicated amps?....do you think they're lying?....you think they're stupid or half deaf?....you're applying reasoning from bum info instead of experiencing that which you dispute.....

....to you guys considering adding amps to whatever form of pre-amp....when a poster tries to speak with authority and says amps make no difference at "any" listening level, ask for his credentials of experience with dedicated slave amps....and, there's something about 200 watts and over, especially over, that doesn't happen with under 200, period....and sure, we're talking quality of build also, which will cost a little more.....no offense intended whatsoever in this post....but really, speak with experience, or you will be assigned no credibility from those who have any level of common sense to speak of......

It has been shown time and time again, that as long as an amp is not driven beyond its' capabilities it will sound pretty much the same as any other amp irregardless of amp power or dedicated amp vs receiver amp. In short, your 200 watt amp won't sound a bit better or different than a 100 watt amp dedicated or not. Amplifiers are designed to be as transparent as possible.

I assume this will start the usual my amp is better than your receiver or that more power sounds better argument. This has been argued to death and to date, noone has been able to reliably tell the difference between amplifiers under controlled testing conditions.

If you have any verified information (double blind testing) regarding how different each amp sounds, please share it with the rest of us. (Please, nothing subjective) Facts, only.

 

[Reorx]

Reorx, unless you were sitting in an anechoic chamber doing this test the results are useless. You would have to do all your listening with one speaker in one spot otherwise your introducing room accoustics to the equation. To answer your conclusion, NO an external amp will NOT boost volume, since most off the time your only using 1-2watts. So it'll make no difference wether those watts are coming from a receiver or dedicated amp. As far a sound quality goes since your only using 1-2watts it would have to be the build quality off the amps components that are giving you thr precieved sense off improved sound quality.

What exactly does boost the volume mean to you? To me, it means instead of having the receiver set to a high volume...+1...you add a amp, and can have the receivers volume at like -20, at the same dB.

As for my test, it was 2 speakers only, playing at the same time, calibrated to the same dB. 1 using external amp+receivers preouts, other using receivers powered out. listening spots were 1m in front of each speaker. Speakers were 15 feet apart. set to large.
My test was a simple test to see if 'I' could hear a difference. It was not ment to be a scientific test, in the perfectly configured sound room, with pretty graphs, and the perfect configuration. I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be.

Anyways, back to your normally scheduled program.

Reorx

 

[highfihoney]

no offense to anybody but this is stupid.

all the guys who preach that a difference cant be heard running external amps kill me,every last post i have ever seen from the nay sayers is without merit because it is NEVER based on experience but they all cling to the google linked dbt tests like they are the holy grail of hifi & quote terms like "emperical evidince" or "testing protocol" or even "quantifiable",who is trying to prove what here, the guys who have tried it both ways & heard a difference or the guys who have never tried anything & desperately cling to google links to reinforce their position ?

who's position on this subject is more self serving i wonder ?

one thing i know for sure is that people who are willing to try new things within their own systems will benifit by gaining personal experience & better sounding rigs & those who read everything in sight trying to convince themselves & others that the gear they own cant be bested will never gain one ounce of knowledge (other than quoting specs) nor will they achieve the next level of performance.

 

[MacManNM]

So what db reading did you get on the meter? I've been their done that as well when I sold my NAD T773 to a fellow ht nut. After calibrating his setup which consisted of PSB Stratus Golds and Silvers with corresponding center(no sub) with my SPL meter(85db at "0" on the dial), we watched some of the action scenes from Fifth Element with the volume set to 0 on the dial. The meter never peaked over 95db. So I would have to say he wasn't using more than 1 watt per channel.

I guess you must have been sitting 1 meter away from the speakers then. Ever heard of 1/r falloff? 1w @ 1m =XdB, 1w @ 2m =X-6dB and so on. No way it was 1 watt unless you were on top of the speakers.

 

[ht_addict]

.....pie in the face on the first part, and you're getting warm on the second part....suggestion....experience with dedicated amps will make you more qualified to post on amp threads instead of posting what you've heard from receiver defenders/pushers....all I see here is unfounded comments desperately trying to defend a/your receiver....it really gets old reading posts putting down amps with no basis for credibility....do you not read all these posts by people who have bought and now own dedicated amps?....do you think they're lying?....you think they're stupid or half deaf?....you're applying reasoning from bum info instead of experiencing that which you dispute.....

Unless a piece of a$$ goes with that pie, no thanks. Now as far as experience goes, lets see. I've had a Rotel RMB-1066, Rotel RMB-1095, NAD S-250 in combination with various receivers (Yamaha 1400, Pio56TXi). At one point the 1095 had to go in for service which left me with the 56TXi to power my setup. After recalibrating everything with my SPL meter I watched some movies. And guess what I watched the movies at the same setting on the receivers dial as I did with the receiver/amp combo and it didn't sound any louder to me. So that got me to thinking, why not measure the SPL levels during certain scenes. Tripod and SPL meter in hand I did just that. And wouldn't you know the difference in SPL levels between the receiver and the receiver/amp combo was ZILTCH. Can you explain why? I can! At no time did I push the amp stage of the receiver beyond its capabilities. So I stand by my opinion.

....to you guys considering adding amps to whatever form of pre-amp....when a poster tries to speak with authority and says amps make no difference at "any" listening level, ask for his credentials of experience with dedicated slave amps....and, there's something about 200 watts and over, especially over, that doesn't happen with under 200, period....and sure, we're talking quality of build also, which will cost a little more.....no offense intended whatsoever in this post....but really, speak with experience, or you will be assigned no credibility from those who have any level of common sense to speak of......

Mulester7, maybe you should get your facts straight about my experience before you post this B$. And at which point did I say,

amps make no difference at "any" listening level?

I said unless your using inefficient speakers in a large room it won't make a difference. Check my posts.

 

[ht_addict]

It has been shown time and time again, that as long as an amp is not driven beyond its' capabilities it will sound pretty much the same as any other amp irregardless of amp power or dedicated amp vs receiver amp. In short, your 200 watt amp won't sound a bit better or different than a 100 watt amp dedicated or not. Amplifiers are designed to be as transparent as possible.

I assume this will start the usual my amp is better than your receiver or that more power sounds better argument. This has been argued to death and to date, noone has been able to reliably tell the difference between amplifiers under controlled testing conditions.

If you have any verified information (double blind testing) regarding how different each amp sounds, please share it with the rest of us. (Please, nothing subjective) Facts, only.

Thank you I'm not trying to start or get into receiver vs amp debate. I was just answering the OP question since I've gone down this route before. You really need a large room and or inefficient speakers to make an amp worth while.

 

[ht_addict]

What exactly does boost the volume mean to you? To me, it means instead of having the receiver set to a high volume...+1...you add a amp, and can have the receivers volume at like -20, at the same dB.

As for my test, it was 2 speakers only, playing at the same time, calibrated to the same dB. 1 using external amp+receivers preouts, other using receivers powered out. listening spots were 1m in front of each speaker. Speakers were 15 feet apart. set to large.
My test was a simple test to see if 'I' could hear a difference. It was not ment to be a scientific test, in the perfectly configured sound room, with pretty graphs, and the perfect configuration. I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be.

Anyways, back to your normally scheduled program.

Reorx

Reorx, scientific or not, unless you did your little experiment in a sound chamber your results are irrelevant. You have two speakers in two totally different spots. Even if your only sitting 1M away you still have room accoustics that will affect the sound. This is why speaker manufacturers do their testing in such rooms.

 

[ht_addict]

I guess you must have been sitting 1 meter away from the speakers then. Ever heard of 1/r falloff? 1w @ 1m =XdB, 1w @ 2m =X-6dB and so on. No way it was 1 watt unless you were on top of the speakers.

And I guess you forgot about dB gain from sonic reinforcement(multiple speakers), and dB gain from placement(reinforcement from reflected sound)

 

[MacManNM]

And I guess you forgot about dB gain from sonic reinforcement(multiple speakers), and dB gain from placement(reinforcement from reflected sound)

I didn't forget about anything. You dont get phased array type of gain from loudspeakers. You get some, but none on the order of the 10dB or so you would need to prove that you were listening at 1 watt.

The real issue here is dynamic headroom. Seperates have much more dynamic headroom than receivers. This usually results in a smoother response, and a better overall experience. At 10 watts, they all sound the same, but 10 watts RMS and 20dB dynamic peaks, a seperate 100w amp will blow the doors off of a receiver.

 

[MacManNM]

Ht addict,
If power is so overrated, and we rarely use more than 1 watt, why do you have your speakers bi-amped?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

At one point the 1095 had to go in for service which left me with the 56TXi to power my setup. After recalibrating everything with my SPL meter I watched some movies. And guess what I watched the movies at the same setting on the receivers dial as I did with the receiver/amp combo and it didn't sound any louder to me. So that got me to thinking, why not measure the SPL levels during certain scenes. Tripod and SPL meter in hand I did just that. And wouldn't you know the difference in SPL levels between the receiver and the receiver/amp combo was ZILTCH. Can you explain why? I can! At no time did I push the amp stage of the receiver beyond its capabilities. So I stand by my opinion.

You're comparing some of the better receivers on the market to separates. The Elite 56TXi is a powerhouse, as is the Denon 4806. The older Denon 4802 has been compared to separates, being able to drive demanding speakers with more finesse than the likes of the Denon 3 series, or anything under Yamaha's flagships. For the prices on those two receivers, it's quite easy to purchase a lower end receiver and separate amp - especially if you go with a pro audio amp. Denon 4806 - $3500; Elite 56TXi - $1700.

 

[ht_addict]

Ht addict,
If power is so overrated, and we rarely use more than 1 watt, why do you have your speakers bi-amped?

Because I have 2 extra channels on my receiver, extra wire so why not?

 

[ht_addict]

I didn't forget about anything. You dont get phased array type of gain from loudspeakers. You get some, but none on the order of the 10dB or so you would need to prove that you were listening at 1 watt.

The real issue here is dynamic headroom. Seperates have much more dynamic headroom than receivers. This usually results in a smoother response, and a better overall experience. At 10 watts, they all sound the same, but 10 watts RMS and 20dB dynamic peaks, a seperate 100w amp will blow the doors off of a receiver.

But unless your clipping the receivers ampstage it isn't going to make a bit off difference and thats the point I'm trying to get across. Again, unless the OP is using very inefficient speakers in a large room the addition of an amp will not make a difference unless he's clipping the ampstage of the receiver.

 

[ht_addict]

You're comparing some of the better receivers on the market to separates. The Elite 56TXi is a powerhouse, as is the Denon 4806. The older Denon 4802 has been compared to separates, being able to drive demanding speakers with more finesse than the likes of the Denon 3 series, or anything under Yamaha's flagships. For the prices on those two receivers, it's quite easy to purchase a lower end receiver and separate amp - especially if you go with a pro audio amp. Denon 4806 - $3500; Elite 56TXi - $1700.

Like I said, I've been their done that. What these powerhouse receivers bring to the table, in features and power beats out most prepro/amp, rec/amp combos you can put together in the same price range.

 

[mtrycrafts]

spl meter.

been there & done that many times infact,i have an spl meter but i also have the ability to see real time watt useage from the system's as it happens & compare the read out to the spl levels & 1 watt will not produce reference .

Well, you may have real time power meters, but it isn't instantaneous response capable. I am sure that they are needle based? Lots of lag and then you look at the spl meter, more time lag. Not very accurate.

But, 1 watt is not what is producing the reference level spl of 105 dB.
At reference levels the full scale signals on that disc, is what will produce the reference levels, not the average sound it puts out, or what is comfortable for people.
I've been there too with friends and real time power meters. comfortable levels, excluding peaks, I have yet to read 1 watt of power on the meter. Certainly at time it is at 1 watt and perhaps 2 and not be peaking but these are not the norm either. I suppose some value their long term hearing more

Yet, reference levels or very close ARE reached on at these listening levels.

Besides, not that many movies have 0dBFS signals on it. And, that would be in the LFE.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It has been shown time and time again, that as long as an amp is not driven beyond its' capabilities it will sound pretty much the same as any other amp irregardless of amp power or dedicated amp vs receiver amp. In short, your 200 watt amp won't sound a bit better or different than a 100 watt amp dedicated or not. Amplifiers are designed to be as transparent as possible.

Facts, only.

Facts? you want facts to get in the way of audiophiles?

You know what will freeze over first

Besides, implicit trust of ears is the order of the day

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mulester7, maybe you should get your facts straight .

Miracles are in books only