Will an external amp boost just volume, or improve overall sound quality?

[mtrycrafts]

accurate to what load,every manufacturer on the planet dreams up some new goofy a$$ way to measure the output of their gear(some from just a single tone) thats how we ended up with $199 /10 pound systems sitting on the shelves at stores with wild claims of 1,700 watts.

just because the ftc dont require honesty in advertising does not make it right.

I think FTC does require honesty in advertising, or is that the FCC?

The specs would specify what load they did the test, usually 8 ohms, sometimes 6.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/gurusdennis.htm

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/12/amprule.htm

Class D amps are light and can indeed put out power, at times, a lot of power for their weight.

 

[mtrycrafts]

if you think 1 watt is plenty loud then you would hate to be in my room when there is 1,500 watts being used even with 104 db speakers(klipsch corner horns) i have never thought 1 watt to be plenty loud.

What? 104 dB spl is not loud for you at 1 watt?, well, maybe a bit less with distance. 1500 watts into those speakers??? No, I doubt 130+ dB is my cup of tea.

 

[W_Harding]

hi sheep,double the wattage (with any amp) dose not equal double the volume,to double the volume it takes 8 to 10 times the amount of wattage,there is only about a 10% gain in spl's when you double the wattage.

If one doubles the power the loudness increase is +3dB. The rule of thumb is that it takes a +10dB increase to sound about twice as loud. For example, going from a 100W amplifier to a 200W amplifier will result in a +3dB increase in sound level which is a noticeable but rather small perceived difference in loudness. To reach a +10dB increase in sound level one would need to increase the power level to 1,000W.

If your receiver or pre-pro reads out its volume level steps in dB you can conduct this fun experiment. Set the volume at any reasonable listening level, and then increase the level by +3dB. How much louder does this doubling of power seem to you? How about a +10dB increase? Does it seem twice as loud?

 

[highfihoney]

If one doubles the power the loudness increase is +3dB. The rule of thumb is that it takes a +10dB increase to sound about twice as loud. For example, going from a 100W amplifier to a 200W amplifier will result in a +3dB increase in sound level which is a noticeable but rather small perceived difference in loudness. To reach a +10dB increase in sound level one would need to increase the power level to 1,000W.

If your receiver or pre-pro reads out its volume level steps in dB you can conduct this fun experiment. Set the volume at any reasonable listening level, and then increase the level by +3dB. How much louder does this doubling of power seem to you? How about a +10dB increase? Does it seem twice as loud?

i think we both said the same thing only you explained it better

 

[flyv65]

When I demo'ed the Cary Cinema7 I brought my own speakers and used a reccy he had in the shop. There was a noticeable improvement in clarity at much lower volumes, and the soundstage seemed larger with two channel music. I also listened to my speakers with the Cary amp and the matchnig Pre-pro...my jaw hit the floor at the improvement in sound. Huge soundstage; clear, warm vocals and acoustics; I couldn't believe that the sound was coming out of my little Spendor S5e's. I also listened to my speakers hooked up to a Conrad Johnson solid state amp and tube pre-pro set-up that sounded ..."different". I hesitate to say better although some probably would (the buddy who was out there with me thought so), but I'll say without reservation that it sounded great.

As an aside, my 3805 is nominally rated for 120wpc, and the Cary Cinema7 is rated for 100wpc, 7 channels. The Cary effortlessly drove my Spendors (sensitivity: 87dB) and made it easier for me to decide against the $2000 MORE EXPENSIVE cinema5 (200wpc/5 channels) that I listened to also. I did bring my Ratshack meter to check clarity at different volumes, but only did it between the receiver only and the receiver/amp combo. I can't speak for the high end receivers (5905, Arcam AVR300, etc.), but I'm here to say the pre-pro/amp combo beats the pants off of any receiver I've heard under $3,000 for at least music. Then again, it ought to for the price .

I don't know that the difference between external amps is worth some of the prices being asked, but I can assure you that there is a difference between the Denon onboard amps and the Cary external amps. Take your own gear to a dealer and listen for yourself.

Bryan...gotta start saving for the new pre-pro from Cary now...

 

[W_Harding]

i think we both said the same thing only you explained it better

Yes, I was building on your comments.

 

[mtrycrafts]

When I demo'ed the Cary Cinema7 I brought my own speakers and used a reccy he had in the shop. There was a noticeable improvement in clarity at much lower volumes, and the soundstage seemed larger with two channel music.

You took your speakers to a store to test an amp if I read you correctly?
What two components did you compare in the store for this conclusion? Or, you compared the one in the store to the one at home? Reading the rest of your post seems to me that you are comparing that Cary to your 3805?

You had two different acoustic space, right? Maybe that accounted for all the changes? Acoustic memory for small differences is very short, seconds. I bet it took longer to get to that store and set up.

As an aside, my 3805 is nominally rated for 120wpc, and the Cary Cinema7 is rated for 100wpc, 7 channels. The Cary effortlessly drove my Spendors (sensitivity: 87dB)

But the Cary was at an audio store, and the 3805 at home?

but I can assure you that there is a difference between the Denon onboard amps and the Cary external amps.

I have no reason to doubt your intentions, but your comparison protocol is lacking reliability if the above conditions are correct what I gathered from your post

 

[flyv65]

I have no reason to doubt your intentions, but your comparison protocol is lacking reliability if the above conditions are correct what I gathered from your post

Absolutely: this wasn't a double blind, ABX test environment by any means! I brought my own speakers to his place, and used his 3805 and 3805/Cary amp combo to push them. Granted, the source CD player and the listening space weren't the same as at home, but they were consistent for the comparison of the "with amp/without amp" question. I could add that this was also only a two channel comparison as opposed to 5 channels, but that might leave you flummoxed at the addition of another variable I'd overlooked .

Seriously, I went out there expecting to hear a slight difference (if any) with a 200 wpc amp: I hadn't planned to bother listening to the 100wpc amp since it shouldn't sound any better (or different, if you will) to the Denon's amps. I am by nature an empiricist (at least as far as flyfishing is concerned), and an objectivist (mostly) in terms of audio. I don't believe that batteries "align the di-electric" in $2500 cables, or that green magic markers improve the sound of CDs, or that CD/DVD players "leak" laser light and degenerate the quality of the image/sound (seriously, I saw a guy selling a...device, I'd guess you'd call it at the RM Audiofest last year to control this very thing). Forced to say why I'd heard a difference between the 3805 and the 3805/amp combo I'd have to say it was because: A) the amps in the Denon are different in function or design to the Cary; B) variables I hadn't accounted for affected my impressions; or C) I didn't hear a difference, I only *thought* I did. I tend to lean towards a combination of "A" and "B", but I can't in good concience rule out "C" entirely, either.

Bryan...how about if I just say "I liked the sound of the Cary amp, so I bought it?...

 

[Jack Hammer]

Bravo, Bravo...

...how about if I just say "I liked the sound of the Cary amp, so I bought it?...

...sounds of hands clapping.

 

[Reorx]

Will an external amp boost just volume, or improve overall sound quality?

Since this is a old question, and has been repeated over and over again on the msgboards. I'll post a link to 1 of the threads.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15256

Since I read and posted to the thread I linked above, I have also tested this using a 75wpc external amp vs receivers 110wpc amps. Right channel using the pre+amp, the Left channel using receivers powered connection. I put the receiver in stereo 2channel mode, and listened from about 1m away from each speaker. After going back in forth multiple times, and having my wife listen. The 75wpc amp was noticebly cleaner.

In conclusion: Yes a decent external amp will boost the volume, as well as improve the overall sound quality.

Reorx

 

[Snarl]

I originally had the following set-up in my basement;

Denon AVR-3805
2 x Paradigm Monitor 11's Mains
2 x Paradigm Monitor 7's Surrounds
1 x Paradigm CC-370 Center
1 x Paradigm PW-2100 Sub

This sounded excellent using a 60Hz Crossover listening to music in Two Channel (Stereo or Direct) at all levels however it just started to sound a little bit strained using 5 Channel Stereo Mode, still really good just a little strained at high volume.

As a reference I beleive the Denon AVR-3805 is capable of the following approximate output;
2 Channel - 120 watts per channel
5 Channel - 109 watts per channel
7 Channel - 77 watts per channel

Movies sounded Great, I later added the following;

Outlaw 755 5 Channel Amplifer rated at 200 watts per channel all 5 Channels Driven, the end result according to my perception was that 5 Channel Stereo with the Outlaw sounded as good as Two Channel Stereo using the Denon, lots of High end ooomph, clear with no break-up/distortion whatsoever.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Absolutely: this wasn't a double blind, ABX test environment by any means! I brought my own speakers to his place, and used his 3805 and 3805/Cary amp combo to push them. Granted, the source CD player and the listening space weren't the same as at home, but they were consistent for the comparison of the "with amp/without amp" question. I could add that this was also only a two channel comparison as opposed to 5 channels, but that might leave you flummoxed at the addition of another variable I'd overlooked .

Seriously, I went out there expecting to hear a slight difference (if any) with a 200 wpc amp: I hadn't planned to bother listening to the 100wpc amp since it shouldn't sound any better (or different, if you will) to the Denon's amps. I am by nature an empiricist (at least as far as flyfishing is concerned), and an objectivist (mostly) in terms of audio. I don't believe that batteries "align the di-electric" in $2500 cables, or that green magic markers improve the sound of CDs, or that CD/DVD players "leak" laser light and degenerate the quality of the image/sound (seriously, I saw a guy selling a...device, I'd guess you'd call it at the RM Audiofest last year to control this very thing). Forced to say why I'd heard a difference between the 3805 and the 3805/amp combo I'd have to say it was because: A) the amps in the Denon are different in function or design to the Cary; B) variables I hadn't accounted for affected my impressions; or C) I didn't hear a difference, I only *thought* I did. I tend to lean towards a combination of "A" and "B", but I can't in good concience rule out "C" entirely, either.

Bryan...how about if I just say "I liked the sound of the Cary amp, so I bought it?...

Thanks for clarifying that you had both at your disposal to compare whether it was your 3805 or his and the Cary. I understand it wasn't controlled but let me ask, did you consider at least level matching the two setups, other than by ear? That alone would favor one over the other.

Yes, by all means, you liked one you bought it

 

[mtrycrafts]

Since I read and posted to the thread I linked above, I have also tested this using a 75wpc external amp vs receivers 110wpc amps. Right channel using the pre+amp, the Left channel using receivers powered connection. I
Reorx

Well, you may have tested something, certainly it wasn't the two combinations, no way. this is not a valid method to compare, sorry, not even in a sighted condition. Just plain bad and meaningless.

 

[ht_addict]

Since this is a old question, and has been repeated over and over again on the msgboards. I'll post a link to 1 of the threads.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15256

Since I read and posted to the thread I linked above, I have also tested this using a 75wpc external amp vs receivers 110wpc amps. Right channel using the pre+amp, the Left channel using receivers powered connection. I put the receiver in stereo 2channel mode, and listened from about 1m away from each speaker. After going back in forth multiple times, and having my wife listen. The 75wpc amp was noticebly cleaner.

In conclusion: Yes a decent external amp will boost the volume, as well as improve the overall sound quality.

Reorx

Reorx, unless you were sitting in an anechoic chamber doing this test the results are useless. You would have to do all your listening with one speaker in one spot otherwise your introducing room accoustics to the equation. To answer your conclusion, NO an external amp will NOT boost volume, since most off the time your only using 1-2watts. So it'll make no difference wether those watts are coming from a receiver or dedicated amp. As far a sound quality goes since your only using 1-2watts it would have to be the build quality off the amps components that are giving you thr precieved sense off improved sound quality.

 

[highfihoney]

huh?

To answer your conclusion, NO an external amp will NOT boost volume, since most off the time your only using 1-2watts. So it'll make no difference wether those watts are coming from a receiver or dedicated amp.

are you refering to using 1 to 2 watts for music or ht ? if your refering to ht in order to be only using 1 watt just about all the bass has to be turned over to the subwoofer,not the best sounding way to go.

if your refering to music 2 watts wont do anything no matter how efficient the speakers are.

 

[ht_addict]

are you refering to using 1 to 2 watts for music or ht ? if your refering to ht in order to be only using 1 watt just about all the bass has to be turned over to the subwoofer,not the best sounding way to go.

if your refering to music 2 watts wont do anything no matter how efficient the speakers are.

If you have a SPL meter do me a favour and sit in your listening position, turn the volume up to your normal listening level and report back what you get for a reading with the meter. With a properly calibrated setup, during ht use I guarantee you won't even come close to the sensitivity off your speakers. Which means your not even using 1watt. A would bet its the same thing for music, unless your in large room.

 

[highfihoney]

If you have a SPL meter do me a favour and sit in your listening position, turn the volume up to your normal listening level and report back what you get for a reading with the meter. With a properly calibrated setup, during ht use I guarantee you won't even come close to the sensitivity off your speakers. Which means your not even using 1watt. A would bet its the same thing for music, unless your in large room.

spl meter.

been there & done that many times infact,i have an spl meter but i also have the ability to see real time watt useage from the system's as it happens & compare the read out to the spl levels & 1 watt will not produce reference listening levels no matter the efficiency of the speaker system,not even klipsch corner horns.

its all uphill after the 1st watt & for approx every 3db in increased volume it requires double the watts,its not long & the amp is out of power with very little gain in volume.

properly calibrated set up.

there are many ways to calibrate a system,is the proper way to hand off most of the bass to the subwoofer by setting the xover high & not drive the woofers in the rest of the system,what happens to that single watt when you lower the setting on the xover & let the woofers in the rest of the speaker system take the bass that they were designed for.

 

[ht_addict]

spl meter.

been there & done that many times infact,i have an spl meter but i also have the ability to see real time watt useage from the system's as it happens & compare the read out to the spl levels & 1 watt will not produce reference listening levels no matter the efficiency of the speaker system,not even klipsch corner horns.

its all uphill after the 1st watt & for approx every 3db in increased volume it requires double the watts,its not long & the amp is out of power with very little gain in volume.

properly calibrated set up.

there are many ways to calibrate a system,is the proper way to hand off most of the bass to the subwoofer by setting the xover high & not drive the woofers in the rest of the system,what happens to that single watt when you lower the setting on the xover & let the woofers in the rest of the speaker system take the bass that they were designed for.

So what db reading did you get on the meter? I've been their done that as well when I sold my NAD T773 to a fellow ht nut. After calibrating his setup which consisted of PSB Stratus Golds and Silvers with corresponding center(no sub) with my SPL meter(85db at "0" on the dial), we watched some of the action scenes from Fifth Element with the volume set to 0 on the dial. The meter never peaked over 95db. So I would have to say he wasn't using more than 1 watt per channel.

 

[mulester7]

Incidentally, rarely are all channels driven at any given time.

.....right, all the members of an orchestra attack notes at different times, and members of a rock band wait for the guy on their left to strike his instrument first, you bet....this falls right in there with all the channels of a receiver delivering the rated power, what a joke....marketing, boys, marketing....

 

[mulester7]

i also have the ability to see real time watt useage from the system's as it happens & compare the read out to the spl levels & 1 watt will not produce reference listening levels no matter the efficiency of the speaker system,not even klipsch corner horns

.....correct, HiFi, accurate needled meters displaying wattage levels would be quite revealing to what one watt brings....marketing, boys, marketing.....