Why passive bi amplifying exists???

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah when I wrote some older "upscale Onkyos" I was referring to their flagships and Integra line.

According to one of the world experts on bi-amping (the legit variety) the main benefit to the use of an active crossover over passive is they effectively provide full amp power with no waste. In a normal single amp scenario the loudspeaker's passive crossover elements are never 100% efficient so they gobble up, let's say, 5% of the incoming amplifier power and wastefully turn it into heat instead of music signal to send to the drivers. But in active biamping instead an amp goes straight to the voicecoil (because there is no speaker crossover) so nearly all of the power amp's signal gets there intact (assuming the speaker cable being used is adequately thick). Still these gains are rather modest. He said he measured it as being around 1dB in real world use or at the very best 2dB, tops. Far better is to simply get a fundamentally doubly powerful single amp and wire it conventionally with one wire, which achieves a solid 3dB greater maximum potential output. [And it may cost less than buying those two lesser power amps.}
The loss of power in a passive crossover is much higher than you think and generally 3db per order. So in most passive speakers at least half the amp power is wasted and usually more. In addition in many commercial speakers the components are undersized, with too narrow a gauge of wire in the inductors. This results in the wire heating and dynamic compression, which also changes the crossover point to an extent depending on the power demands. The lower a crossover point, the larger this problem becomes. It is much less of a problem the higher the crossover point, due to lower power demands as frequency rises.

So, my practice is to use active crossovers in the lower crossover points in my reference systems. I have trouble justifying an amp to drive a tweeter. In my passive designs I use far more expensive and larger inductors than would normally be found in commercial speakers.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
There is no benefit to passive bi-amping unless the speaker has a crossover around 400 to 500 Hz. However even then one amp of twice the power would do just as well or better.
go figure it’s probably very few models Then.
Yeah yet tons of models include the ability I’m sure 99% are passiveeven my old klipsch icon kf26. And lots of avrs including both ones I have this is one manual. Claiming it increases performance. So these companies all feed into the myth keeping it going .:cool: Companies make ultra high end cables special for doing this also and regular usage.
IMG_4912.png

I have them hooked up the normal way. Using Dayton 14awg cables seem discontinued now. I considered getting 12awg but never did , not sure I’d notice anything different?
IMG_5101.jpeg
IMG_5100.jpeg

I’m sure it would be pointless to bother with a majority of speakers. But lots of people probably do it because they have extra cables lying around and amp channels unused. I’ve tried it before and couldn’t notice a difference.
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic
So could you lose more power bi amplifying then gained? Have you tried it at all ? It’s always tempting costing nothing just extra wire and unused avr channels.
The vast majority of AVRs lose power per channel the more channels you activate/drive (some brands more so than others but almost always by considerable amounts) so to answer your question: YES, you'll likely lose power!
Here for example is the Audioholics review breakdown of a somewhat recent Yamaha showing how its power per channel plummets as you increase the # of CH driven:

1765686889627.png
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So could you lose more power bi amplifying then gained? Have you tried it at all ? It’s always tempting costing nothing just extra wire and unused avr channels.
Using more discreet channels can't lose power.

How would you set the channel levels? The crossover already addresses driver sensitivity, if you adjust the levels of each channel and raise/lower one of them, the frequency response will no longer be teh same as before.

If you don't need the added power and don't use the system near the upper end of the amplifier's power, there's really no benefit. Sure, it adds a bit of headroom, but that's about all.
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic Chief
Using more discreet channels can't lose power.
That depends, if we are talking about an AVR or multi-channel amp, then power supply voltage and current capabilities are a constraint... if one channel uses up the available current from the shared PSU, then the other channel(s) will be constrained (lose power) due to insufficient "power" from the PSU.

Monoblocks of course, don't suffer from this, and the issue often gets worse as you increase the number of channels within a component - which is why it is most obvious on high channel count AVR's.

Often the benefits of biamping relate to bypassing the limitations of the power supply in one amp, by using a seperate amp with its own power supply...
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That depends, if we are talking about an AVR or multi-channel amp, then power supply voltage and current capabilities are a constraint... if one channel uses up the available current from the shared PSU, then the other channel(s) will be constrained (lose power) due to insufficient "power" from the PSU.

Monoblocks of course, don't suffer from this, and the issue often gets worse as you increase the number of channels within a component - which is why it is most obvious on high channel count AVR's.

Often the benefits of biamping relate to bypassing the limitations of the power supply in one amp, by using a seperate amp with its own power supply...
If a power supply can't handle all/more channels driven, it should be excluded in any list of 'good choices'. The manufacturers were required to provide specs with ALL channels driven, but that was before surround became popular and the ~1973 FTC rules ended.

Passive bi-amping came along because reviewers decided that it was a good thing and the manufacturers didn't want to lose market share. I don't remember seeing it before about 1982/1983.
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic
There's a common misconception that passive bi-amping improves maximum possible output by "3 dB", in the same sense that doubling the power of an amplifier from, say, 50w/ch to 100w/ch does. This notion however is false even when using separate monoblocks (where there is no longer a concern regarding the extra strain placed on a single power supply like with typical AVRs' form of passive bi-amping) if one applies the typical FTC rules where the amp must provide the claimed amount of power for any selected frequency one chooses over its stated bandwidth (typically "20-20kHz").

[In the past this test was run I believe with a continuous sine sweep which slowly excites each frequency on its own, albeit briefly, with a test tone slowly escalating in frequency. In modern times AP analyzers instead use dozens? (hundreds?/thousands?) of spot frequencies tested sequentially to effectively accomplish the same thing.]

I demonstrated this with data in the AVS forum. What I proved is that when using a fixed test tone frequency I selected of 200Hz, into a speaker presenting a 4-ohm load with 0 degrees phase angle at that frequency, there is no change in the maximum possible output of it simply by disconnecting the HF input section of the speaker, i.e. removing the gold jumper bars on the speaker's terminals (the change the amp experiences when switching from normal single amp wiring scenario to passive bi-amping just the speaker's LF input alone).

I show that according to Gene's measurements of a particular Denon amp channel (driving 4-ohms) the maximum output at this frequency into this particular speaker's load of 4-ohm with 0-degrees phase angle, under FTC's rules, is 267 watts when using either one amp or passive bi-amping by buying two of them. [Don't let the fact that the data comes from a multichannel amp, an AVR, fool you. Pretend for the moment that to accomplish your passive bi-amping mode you buy a second one.]

To determine the maximum output of an amp at a given frequency used in isolation, you need to know three things:

- what amp is being tested,
- what incoming frequency is being tested, and
- what is the load the amp "feels" at that frequency (shown w/ curves of a particular KEF under the two scenarios)

It's pretty simple: If these three things stay constant then your maximum possible output at that frequency can't change!

It felt like pulling teeth but I finally got DonH50 (is he here in this forum too?), an EE, to admit I was right on this point regarding what happens at this frequency, comparing the two scenarios:

"At any single frequency the power delivered should not change."

So I don't know about you guys, but when I'm considering upgrading the power of my system one of the frequencies I am looking to increase is indeed 200Hz (ha ha) and passive bi-amping in my stated example using real world data does not improve the maximum possible output of that isolated frequency (using FTC guidelines) whatsoever!
 
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D

dlaloum

Audioholic Chief
If a power supply can't handle all/more channels driven, it should be excluded in any list of 'good choices'. The manufacturers were required to provide specs with ALL channels driven, but that was before surround became popular and the ~1973 FTC rules ended.

Passive bi-amping came along because reviewers decided that it was a good thing and the manufacturers didn't want to lose market share. I don't remember seeing it before about 1982/1983.
Sure - but a power supply rated for 8ohm all channels driven, may well run out of puff driving 2ohm all channels driven.

I would like to see amps rated at 8 /4 / 2 ohm (with 1 ohm being optional)...

And there are valid reasons for saying that "all channels driven" may not be representative of actual use...

After all, in 99% of HT situations the load on channels other than L / C / R is lower than the load on LCR - so a more economical power supply could be fitted on the assumption that power requirements would be lower on the rest of the channels.... (or an asymetric design, with lower power amplifiers mixed with higher power ones, like Anthem do in some of their AVR's)

But yes it would be very desirable to get proper specifications from the manufacturers.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Sure - but a power supply rated for 8ohm all channels driven, may well run out of puff driving 2ohm all channels driven.

I would like to see amps rated at 8 /4 / 2 ohm (with 1 ohm being optional)...

And there are valid reasons for saying that "all channels driven" may not be representative of actual use...

After all, in 99% of HT situations the load on channels other than L / C / R is lower than the load on LCR - so a more economical power supply could be fitted on the assumption that power requirements would be lower on the rest of the channels.... (or an asymetric design, with lower power amplifiers mixed with higher power ones, like Anthem do in some of their AVR's)

But yes it would be very desirable to get proper specifications from the manufacturers.
Of course a power supply designed for 8 Ohms will run out of steam at 2 Ohms or lower and even the 'classic' audio equipment from the 'golden days' (not my opinion, it's the way too many people describe it) had instructions on the back and in the manual to maintain 4 Ohms minimum with one pair of speakers but at least the speakers of that time tended to be 8 Ohms, so <4 Ohm dips were relatively rare. However, a power supply that can handle 2 or 1 Ohm will cost more and most people won't need that. For the ones who do, there are plenty of pro amps that will handle it. For mixed output power needs, an AVP would be best, or an AVR with preamp out for all channels.

Do you remember the drive to get people to write to the FTC, to have them restore or revamp amplifier specs? Maybe Gene can post that- I don't remember seeing that it happened.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Of course a power supply designed for 8 Ohms will run out of steam at 2 Ohms or lower and even the 'classic' audio equipment from the 'golden days' (not my opinion, it's the way too many people describe it) had instructions on the back and in the manual to maintain 4 Ohms minimum with one pair of speakers but at least the speakers of that time tended to be 8 Ohms, so <4 Ohm dips were relatively rare. However, a power supply that can handle 2 or 1 Ohm will cost more and most people won't need that. For the ones who do, there are plenty of pro amps that will handle it. For mixed output power needs, an AVP would be best, or an AVR with preamp out for all channels.

Do you remember the drive to get people to write to the FTC, to have them restore or revamp amplifier specs? Maybe Gene can post that- I don't remember seeing that it happened.
Do you remember this?
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
There's a common misconception that passive bi-amping improves maximum possible output by "3 dB", in the same sense that doubling the power of an amplifier from, say, 50w/ch to 100w/ch does. This notion however is false even when using separate monoblocks (where there is no longer a concern regarding the extra strain placed on a single power supply like with typical AVRs' form of passive bi-amping) if one applies the typical FTC rules where the amp must provide the claimed amount of power for any selected frequency one chooses over its stated bandwidth (typically "20-20kHz").

[In the past this test was run I believe with a continuous sine sweep which slowly excites each frequency on its own, albeit briefly, with a test tone slowly escalating in frequency. In modern times AP analyzers instead use dozens? (hundreds?/thousands?) of spot frequencies tested sequentially to effectively accomplish the same thing.]

I demonstrated this with data in the AVS forum. What I proved is that when using a fixed test tone frequency I selected of 200Hz, into a speaker presenting a 4-ohm load with 0 degrees phase angle at that frequency, there is no change in the maximum possible output of it simply by disconnecting the HF input section of the speaker, i.e. removing the gold jumper bars on the speaker's terminals (the change the amp experiences when switching from normal single amp wiring scenario to passive bi-amping just the speaker's LF input alone).

I show that according to Gene's measurements of a particular Denon amp channel (driving 4-ohms) the maximum output at this frequency into this particular speaker's load of 4-ohm with 0-degrees phase angle, under FTC's rules, is 267 watts when using either one amp or passive bi-amping by buying two of them. [Don't let the fact that the data comes from a multichannel amp, an AVR, fool you. Pretend for the moment that to accomplish your passive bi-amping mode you buy a second one.]

To determine the maximum output of an amp at a given frequency used in isolation, you need to know three things:

- what amp is being tested,
- what incoming frequency is being tested, and
- what is the load the amp "feels" at that frequency (shown w/ curves of a particular KEF under the two scenarios)

It's pretty simple: If these three things stay constant then your maximum possible output at that frequency can't change!

It felt like pulling teeth but I finally got DonH50 (is he here in this forum too?), an EE, to admit I was right on this point regarding what happens at this frequency, comparing the two scenarios:

"At any single frequency the power delivered should not change."

So I don't know about you guys, but when I'm considering upgrading the power of my system one of the frequencies I am looking to increase is indeed 200Hz (ha ha) and passive bi-amping in my stated example using real world data does not improve the maximum possible output of that isolated frequency (using FTC guidelines) whatsoever!
Do the unused amps for 7ch still do stuff when not passive bi-amping running 5ch ??
I don’t understand why so many speakers offer passive bi-amping if it doesn’t do anything?
Do you remember this?
lots of brands get away with exaggerated specs. And pricey avr today are lower wattage often some cost 1.8k and only 105w pch like denon 3800.
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic
I don’t understand why so many speakers offer passive bi-amping if it doesn’t do anything?
One rep from a company I sold, Sonus Faber, told me point blank (but off the record):
"We don't believe in it at all but we are afraid we would lose sales if we didn't have it because a huge percentage of the buying public buys into the myth and would shop elsewhere if we didn't include it." (paraphrased)
Kal Rubinson, veteran reviewer at Stereophile, was told pretty much the exact same thing (link upon request) but he didn't name the specific brand he heard it from.

P.S. Dealers often support the myth because it increases the likelihood of selling a customer twice as much wire as they truly need and twice as many amplifiers.

Bi-amplifying and bi-wiring = bi-profits in their wallets!
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
So could you lose more power bi amplifying then gained? Have you tried it at all ? It’s always tempting costing nothing just extra wire and unused avr channels.
You're still pulling from the same power supply. That is the issue.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
One rep from a company I sold, Sonus Faber, told me point blank (but off the record):
"We don't believe in it at all but we are afraid we would lose sales if we didn't have it because a huge percentage of the buying public buys into the myth and would shop elsewhere if we didn't include it." (paraphrased)
Kal Rubinson, veteran reviewer at Stereophile, was told pretty much the exact same thing (link upon request) but he didn't name the specific brand he heard it from.

P.S. Dealers often support the myth because it increases the likelihood of selling a customer twice as much wire as they truly need and twice as many amplifiers.

Bi-amplifying and bi-wiring = bi-profits in their wallets!
Its an industry built around myths and lies and those who are gullible are the most vocal against the real science in audio.
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic
You're still pulling from the same power supply. That is the issue.
Using the FTC's 5 rules* established in 1974 (which is generally what we mean when we talk about amplifier maximum clean output power levels in watts) passive bi-amping still gets you nowhere in terms of "increased output" even if you use two, independent, monoblock power amps each with its own, independent power supply.

In my example in my AVS forum post I linked to earlier the maximum output levels of that particular amp at 20 Hz and 200 Hz (which are just two of the many frequencies the amp needs to be able to successfully excite over its claimed bandwidth of 20-20kHz) are:

255.1w for 20Hz, when presented with a 4-ohm load at that test frequency

and

267w for 200Hz, when presented with a 4-ohm load at that test frequency

both
when driving just one of its amp channels into the standard 4-ohm resistor @gene used for his measurement of a Denon AVR amp channel into a 4-ohm load. [see figure 5 at the link]
[I selected 200Hz by the way because this speaker exhibits 0 degrees phase angle at that frequency.]

OK, but what happens if we buy a secondary amp of the exact same model, for "passive bi-amping" purposes (so we are effectively using two independent monoblock amps each with their own, independent power supply) and just drive the woofer section alone? What will the maximum output at the 20Hz and 200Hz test frequencies be then? Will they improve because this amp is no longer "burdened" with the tweeter section?

Well that's easy to determine by examining how the impedance load presented to the amp changes in this new two-amp scenario by disconnecting the jumper straps and powering the speaker's woofer section all by itself. Now the amp only sees the woofer section load but is freed from the burden of the tweeter section load. Let's examine how the load changes at those two test frequencies by looking at the posted impedance curve of this speaker when you connect to both woofer and tweeter together (top image, CONVENTIONAL single amp scenario) vs. only connecting its woofer section all by itself (PASSIVE BI-AMPING load scenario, bottom image):

Measured impedance (Y-axis) vs. frequency (X-axis) of a single amp connected KEF speaker, by "AJ in Fla":
Kef q100 new biamp 2024 woofer plus tweeter with green arrow on AJinFLA impedance graph.jpg

[Added text by me, m.zillch.]

Measured impedance (Y-axis) vs. frequency (X-axis) of a woofer section only KEF speaker, by "AJ in Fla":
Kef q100 new biamp 2024 WOOFER ALONE with green arrow on AJinFLA speaker measurement graph.jpg

[Added text by me, m.zillch.]

Sure, there are all sorts of changes in the overall impedance curve the amp sees across many different higher frequencies but when outputting just isolated 20Hz and 200Hz test tones by themselves, the ones in question, the load the amp "sees" under both scenarios (one amp driving both woofer + tweeter sections vs. one driving just the woofer section alone) stays at exactly the same value in both diagrams: 4-ohms. [My green arrow only points at 20Hz so you'll have to inspect what happens to the measured impedance load at 200Hz using your eyes on your own :) .]

If an amp experiences no changes in the input signal frequency nor the load it is faced with when driving that isolated test tone frequency (20Hz and also 200 Hz in this case) then its maximum output power when playing those two isolated frequencies, does not improve/vary. If the maximum output power does not grow at either 20Hz nor 200Hz, as I've just demonstrated, then one can't claim passive bi-amping has "higher output from 20-20kHz", under the FTC 5 rules, because both of those test frequencies fall within that stated range of its claimed output power.

*The FTC 5 rules advertisers had to stipulate back then (when amps were usually only 1ch or 2ch) were:

1) How many of the amp channels are being driven simultaneously? [It's easier to drive one channel instead of both.]
2) Over what specific range of frequencies do you claim your amp can provide this level of power? [20-20kHz being typical but not a rule. They can state different ranges but they must declare it].
3) What is the impedance load the amp sees at all these test frequencies? [8-ohm is the most common, followed by 4-ohm]
4) How much permissible THD do you allow at this claimed output power? [ <1% and <.1% being the most common values chosen.]
5) Is the claimed output level continuously sustainable over, say, 5 minutes? Or is it only momentary for breif peaks in the signal? [Amps can "cheat"" by stating their peak output which in truth they can only attain for a fraction of a second. Continuous output is more important and more strenuous (although having good peak capability is a good thing too).]
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
One rep from a company I sold, Sonus Faber, told me point blank (but off the record):
"We don't believe in it at all but we are afraid we would lose sales if we didn't have it because a huge percentage of the buying public buys into the myth and would shop elsewhere if we didn't include it." (paraphrased)
Kal Rubinson, veteran reviewer at Stereophile, was told pretty much the exact same thing (link upon request) but he didn't name the specific brand he heard it from.

P.S. Dealers often support the myth because it increases the likelihood of selling a customer twice as much wire as they truly need and twice as many amplifiers.

Bi-amplifying and bi-wiring = bi-profits in their wallets!
And this is EXACTLY why this BS continues- business that should be dealing with facts are too chicken shyte to be honest. 40+ years after it began and it wasn't even about passive bi-amping at that time, it was because people presented the path length for bass and treble frequencies being different enough that it was audible in home installations. Then, Munster Cables came into existence and life has sucked since that time.

That crap is even troweled out to professional installers at places like CEDIA, where the clown who presented the 'Audio Setup and Calibration' class I went to said all speaker wires should be the same length. Really? In a large home with some speakers being a short distance from the amplifiers/AVR? Should the excess be hidden in the walls? What if the walls are filled with insulation, ductwork, solid, exterior, etc? That's ridiculous! He spent more time telling us how cool he and his company were than offering factual info.

Marketing BS- if I ever finish building my time machine, this is one thing I want to change.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Why is this still being debated?:mad:
I don't know. People seem to think that passive bi amping from amplifiers being sourced by the same power supply does make a difference. I think its BS. Also, I was responding to Kingnoob so I dont know why your showing me an angry face. ;)
 
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