Why do AH's own or wanting to own separate amps whether they need them or not?

[TLS Guy]

I'm typing on my iPad now. I stream lossless audio from my iPad directly to my Denon pre-pro. I watch HD video files from my HTPC - all 750 HD movies and another 500+ HDTV episodes via XBMC. I don't use BD players or other media disc players. I use my iPad as a remote for my Denon. I use my iPad as a keyboard/mouse/controller for my HTPC. I can control all the lights in my house with my iPad. I can change the home thermostat with my iPad. I can control my garage doors with my iPad. I can monitor all my webcams on my iPad. I am all for change and the digital age and integration if they improve my enjoyment and reduce my stress.

But I have no desire to stick plate amps inside my speakers and subs because I sure don't see any potential sonic benefits from that notion.

I'm not suggesting cheap plate amps and switching power supplies. However there are now good examples of class D amps powering monitor speakers with DSP crossovers in Europe.

There is nothing to stop you using built in A/B traditional amps that ATC use for instance.
However, properly done, class D can offer very good performance in this application with high efficiency, and therefore low heat generation with high long term reliability.

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with the concept of a plate amp. It is just that most of these sub plate amps are poorly executed and basically junk.

 

[JohnnieB]

Granted, no other reasons needed but how about some pictures of amps you own that you don't need? I posted 2 of mine. TLS did too but he said he needed them.

Sadly, mine is still in the box. Speakers ship the 25th. New build. I will be using two Emos for my 5.1. If I ever decide to go tube, I may end up with extra amps. I would guess they wouldn,t stay unused for long. Putting a system together with separates, is part of the hobby, that to me, makes it fun. When I built my first separates system, it sounded better than anything I had previously owned. I also like the look of separates. Main reason I build with separates is that I feel I get cleaner wattage at higher levels. I'm by no means an electronic engineer, but you can't tell me, cramming everything into a single chassis, is just as good. Show me an AV receiver with 300+ wpc. Speaking of cramming everything into one chassis, the implied paradigm here is why spend money on amps you don't need. I say, why should I spend money on options I don't need. The list of features on a top end receiver reads like a Stephen King novel. If all I want is pure sweet sound and the ability to hear it in 2ch or 5.1, why do I have to pay for 8 different sound modes, multiple zones, and more outputs than you would need for a family of 12. My appologies. This wasn't meant to be a rant, but it annoys me how these popular brand names pile on the options to an allready bloated system, and then want you to pay an extra grand for a measley 30 extra watts. "2 ch. driven". To me there is more value in a well built purpose driven amp, than a jack of all trades receiver, at any price. JMO. Oh and I will be more than happy to post pics of my setup, when I actually get it set up.

 

[PENG]

Sadly, mine is still in the box. Speakers ship the 25th. New build. I will be using two Emos for my 5.1. If I ever decide to go tube, I may end up with extra amps. I would guess they wouldn,t stay unused for long. Putting a system together with separates, is part of the hobby, that to me, makes it fun. When I built my first separates system, it sounded better than anything I had previously owned. I also like the look of separates. Main reason I build with separates is that I feel I get cleaner wattage at higher levels. I'm by no means an electronic engineer, but you can't tell me, cramming everything into a single chassis, is just as good. Show me an AV receiver with 300+ wpc. Speaking of cramming everything into one chassis, the implied paradigm here is why spend money on amps you don't need. I say, why should I spend money on options I don't need. The list of features on a top end receiver reads like a Stephen King novel. If all I want is pure sweet sound and the ability to hear it in 2ch or 5.1, why do I have to pay for 8 different sound modes, multiple zones, and more outputs than you would need for a family of 12. My appologies. This wasn't meant to be a rant, but it annoys me how these popular brand names pile on the options to an allready bloated system, and then want you to pay an extra grand for a measley 30 extra watts. "2 ch. driven". To me there is more value in a well built purpose driven amp, than a jack of all trades receiver, at any price. JMO. Oh and I will be more than happy to post pics of my setup, when I actually get it set up.

I get your point, and can see clearly that you need separate amps for obvious reasons. I do wish Marantz had not crammed that hot video chip in my AV8801 as I have no use for any video conversion or upscaling and certainly not the extra heat they produce. However, in many cases we are probably getting those unused features for very little because standardization/mass production means lower production cost.

Also agree cramming everything in one box cannot be better, in terms of all sorts of things that could degrade the signal at the output. On the other hand, to a lot of audioholics including me, that such degradation do not always translate into audible sound quality degradation. As an extreme example, ADTG has some high end electronics and he seems content with using a 3312 to drive his big B&W diamonds and his 4 ohm rated Phil 3s The bottom line is, some people need amps and some don't. Gene's recent thread provided us with a quick rule of thumb kind of way to find out if we need one or not. In the end though, it matters little to those who just want to have separates regardless and I think I am one of those audioholics.

Please give us feedbacks on your EMOs, hopefully soon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not suggesting cheap plate amps and switching power supplies. However there are now good examples of class D amps powering monitor speakers with DSP crossovers in Europe.

There is nothing to stop you using built in A/B traditional amps that ATC use for instance.
However, properly done, class D can offer very good performance in this application with high efficiency, and therefore low heat generation with high long term reliability.

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with the concept of a plate amp. It is just that most of these sub plate amps are poorly executed and basically junk.

It doesn't matter to me what type of amp technology is being used.

I don't care to cram an amp into my speaker, and neither do most audiophiles.

Just like how some people don't care to cram an amp into the processor to make an integrated convenient digital AVR.

Now there are instances where we just don't care as much. For example, since the Denon X4000 operates relatively cool, I can see myself using it as a pre-pro. The 4520 would be better, but also a lot more expensive. Do I wish Denon could offer the X4000 as a pre-pro minus the amp and make it less expensive? Hell yes.

Putting amps inside high-end main speakers will increase the price of the speakers and we won't even get to choose the amps we desire. Two thumbs down.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Speaking of cramming everything into one chassis, the implied paradigm here is why spend money on amps you don't need.

Yes, having the choice to select and buy our own amps is a nice privilege.

Individuality is good.

Good to be alive.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Putting amps inside speakers will increase the price of the speakers and we won't even get to choose the amps we desire. Two thumbs down.

For some purposes I like powered speakers better, unlike you. I'm using the Audioengine 5+ with my Mac, and having them powered is a big advantage. They reduce clutter, and for less than $400 they are a reason value, considering how they're made and how they sound. I also like powered subs, because I think they need custom equalization and integration to be really optimized. I know you don't agree with that.

For high end stereo main speakers I really don't like them powered though. And active crossovers might be an advantage, but I'll be honest, I've heard no compelling audible advantage to active crossovers. Speakers with active crossovers don't seem to sound inherently better or cost significantly less. The best speakers I've heard do not have active crossovers. I understand the theoretical advantages, but the theory doesn't seem to be enough of an advantage in commercial products to result in objective superiority.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For high end stereo main speakers I really don't like them powered though. And active crossovers might be an advantage, but I'll be honest, I've heard no compelling audible advantage to active crossovers. Speakers with active crossovers don't seem to sound inherently better or cost significantly less. The best speakers I've heard do not have active crossovers. I understand the theoretical advantages, but the theory doesn't seem to be enough of an advantage in commercial products to result in objective superiority.

I agree here. High-end stereo main speakers. Everything else can be powered for convenience.

My PC speakers are also powered.

If I were to get speakers for my office, I would get powered speakers.

Passive speakers and subs accord me the option of choosing whatever amp I want; I'm not at the "mercy" of the manufacturer "forcing" me to use amps I know nothing about.

How would you feel if Revel had placed some amps inside the Salon2 that you know nothing about or care for?

One good thing about the Orion is that I could choose whatever amp I want, even though the Orion is an active speaker. If I didn't want ATI, I could use Bryston or Parasound Halo.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not suggesting cheap plate amps and switching power supplies. However there are now good examples of class D amps powering monitor speakers with DSP crossovers in Europe.

There is nothing to stop you using built in A/B traditional amps that ATC use for instance.
However, properly done, class D can offer very good performance in this application with high efficiency, and therefore low heat generation with high long term reliability.

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with the concept of a plate amp. It is just that most of these sub plate amps are poorly executed and basically junk.

So are you thinking about getting rid of your Quad amps and installing small amps inside your speakers?

 

[RichB]

For the game room, a Yamaha A820 is all that is needed for the Revel M20s/Grotto-I.
For the main system an separate amp is required, it must be since it gets hot .

I am not a EE but it seems that amps clip differently. Some may, as Gene pointed out, current limit. So, a demanding load may not necessarily shutdown or add gross distortion before limiting the output at some frequencies. I doubt this reduction is recognized by most users.

I keep searching for a simple way to size amplification needs. The article is a good starting point.

- Rich

 

[big2bird]

How would you feel if Revel had placed some amps inside the Salon2 that you know nothing about or care for?

.

Good question. What if the Salon 2's were available from the factory with a matching plate amp of the same high caliber, with built in DSP to optimise it , and sold as a set. Keep in mind, you try them, and they knock your socks off. Would you consider them? (Just curious).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good question. What if the Salnon 2's were available from the factory with a matching plate amp of the same high caliber, with built in DSP to optimise it , and sold as a set. Keep in mind, you try them, and they knock your socks off. Would you consider them? (Just curious).

No, I would not buy the Salon2 if the they had built-in amps.

 

[RichB]

Good question. What if the Salnon 2's were available from the factory with a matching plate amp of the same high caliber, with built in DSP to optimise it , and sold as a set. Keep in mind, you try them, and they knock your socks off. Would you consider them? (Just curious).

i read an article a while back where a Harman representative remarked that when they presented powered speaker concepts to dealers, the reaction was not favorable. There are logistical and financial barriers.

- Rich

edit: touched, I am not very good at typing on an iPad

 

[Irvrobinson]

How would you feel if Revel had placed some amps inside the Salon2 that you know nothing about or care for?

That's a good question. I considered powered speakers when I was shopping for the Revels, the ATC SCM150ASL, to be specific. I thought the 150 sounded very good, was very solidly built, and, if you have a pragmatic open mind about it, I think they are also a very good value. (You can buy a pair online for $18K, even now.) The ATCs have an honest, rugged industrial design that you just don't see in consumer products, and that appealed to the product engineer in me. Of course, if you're into styling the ATCs are not very impressive; they're simply very large, heavy, wooden boxes that need to be stand-mounted, and at over 150lbs each you can't just pick any old stand to set them on.

I got to hear the 150s in a rather large studio monitoring room, and the set-up was probably pretty close to optimal. Frankly, they were very tempting, but the Salon2s sounded better. If I hadn't heard the Salon2s before I heard the 150s I might have just ordered the 150s.

I suppose my point is that, yes, I would consider powered main speakers, and I would have even considered the Salon2 if it were powered. But in the end a non-powered speaker with a passive crossover - that TLSGuy considers a poor design because it has a woofer crossover frequency of 150Hz - still beats anything else I've heard. As any product developer knows, great execution can beat great theory, hands down.

 

[TLS Guy]

So are you thinking about getting rid of your Quad amps and installing small amps inside your speakers?

No. Really what I'm talking about does require an industrial solution.

However now I have a metal shop, and have more experience in it I'm tempted to design and build an active set up. The problem is I have no use for it. I'm hard to motivate to build just for the sake of it.

However, in this instance I get increasingly tempted to design an elegant active "lifestyle system" to demonstrate capability. I have in mind and ultra slim TL with hypex amp modules and DSP crossovers in the base, and an ultra slim TL sub that would go behind a couch.

I have a other ideas as well. When I go to Best Buy and waste their time and listen to what is on offer, I'm pretty appalled. Thing could be a lot better, not only in aesthetics, but especially performance.

With what is now known we could do so much better on many fronts. If I could also get to develop new drivers so much the better. I know exactly which direction I would head.

 

[big2bird]

No. Really what I'm talking about does require an industrial solution.

However now I have a metal shop, and have more experience in it I'm tempted to design and build an active set up. The problem is I have no use for it. I'm hard to motivate to build just for the sake of it.

However, in this instance I get increasingly tempted to design an elegant active "lifestyle system" to demonstrate capability. I have in mind and ultra slim TL with hypex amp modules and DSP crossovers in the base, and an ultra slim TL sub that would go behind a couch.

I have a other ideas as well. When I go to Best Buy and waste their time and listen to what is on offer, I'm pretty appalled. Thing could be a lot better, not only in aesthetics, but especially performance.

With what is now known we could do so much better on many fronts. If I could also get to develop new drivers so much the better. I know exactly which direction I would head.

Making an aesthetically pleasing slim TLS is a great idea. However, developing new drivers is quite a science/art/money consuming proposition.

 

[big2bird]

i read an article a while back where a Harman representative remarked that when they presented powered speaker concepts to dealers, the reaction was not favorable. There are logistical and financial barriers.

- Rich

edit: touched, I am not very good at typing on an iPad

Harmon looks at mass marketing. I am thinking more along the lines of high end, performance at any cost type crowd. I do think the tuber crowd would run, but someone who would just say "Don't mess with it as is."

 

[PENG]

For the game room, a Yamaha A820 is all that is needed for the Revel M20s/Grotto-I.
For the main system an separate amp is required, it must be since it gets hot .

I am not a EE but it seems that amps clip differently. Some may, as Gene pointed out, current limit. So, a demanding load may not necessarily shutdown or add gross distortion before limiting the output at some frequencies. I doubt this reduction is recognized by most users.

I did more AB listening today for fun. I tried very hard to listen for any minute differences but the AVR sounded really nice, no sign of clipping or compression up to 85 to 90 dB average with peaks over 100 dB weighting C fast. I expect the voltages and currents measured at the terminals would have been the same regardless of whether the AVR or the amp was at the other end. That's because I took such measurements before when I compared it with the Bryston and Adcom amps.

After I was done with the AB I left the AVR on but at a more comfortable SPL level of about 75 dB average. Several hours later the temperature inside rose to about 43 deg C at the hottest spot.

I keep searching for a simple way to size amplification needs. The article is a good starting point.

- Rich

Gene's score system should work very well for most people

 

[PENG]

I would only consider integrated speaker/amp systems that are small and relatively low cost, probably for bedroom and small home office. For higher end main systems, I want maximum reflexibility and surely don't want the speakers to be 20 to 40 lbs each heavier.

 

[TLS Guy]

Making an aesthetically pleasing slim TLS is a great idea. However, developing new drivers is quite a science/art/money consuming proposition.

I know that. I've been there many years ago.

 

[crossedover]

No, I would not buy the Salon2 if the they had built-in amps.

What about the Plutos. I've been considering them for new bedroom setup in the 2.2 configuration. Using the hypex modules and mini dsp seems like a high WAF and running them strictly for music. I'd love to try the plate amps with mini dsp built in, just the subs in this instance doesn't lend itself to it.