Why do AH's own or wanting to own separate amps whether they need them or not?

[Rickster71]

It's Moore Law. Crowns DriveCore is capable of 125 Watts with out a separate output section. All from a chip. They have an 8 channel version in 1 RU.

Silicon is driving down the need for discrete components driven at the 10's of watts into packages smaller than a postage stamp driven with 3.3 or 1.4 volts and tolerances that make fancy 1% caps and resistors look downright sloppy in there tolerances. Reducing the need for larger value caps and obviously the real estate needed.

That's true and I agree, if we were to limit the thread's topic to only Class D amps.
I was talking more of separates vs receivers in general.

 

[herbu]

How hot does the X4000 get?

My X4000 and XPA-5 sit side-by-side in a wooden cabinet w/ glass doors. The cabinet is completely closed in front and on top. Have holes in the bottom, sides and back. No fan. Both units have been on now for ~7 continuous hours, low volume, and the X4000 is just warm to the touch. It's about 70degF in the room, and I would guess the top of the X4000 is around 80-85degF. Just warm enough I'm sure the cat would curl up on top of it if it could. (Sorry, I can't find my IR temp meter.)

I play movies pretty loud... loud enough to shake the floor & windows. But that's the hardest workout they get. So far, so good.

I already have an ATI AT3005, AT3002, AT2004, and AT6012.

If you don't mind, I have a question for you.
ATI AT3005 specs seem to be very close to the Emotiva XPA-5 specs. $3,595 vs. $999. Why the difference in price? Thanks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My X4000 and XPA-5 sit side-by-side in a wooden cabinet w/ glass doors. The cabinet is completely closed in front and on top. Have holes in the bottom, sides and back. No fan. Both units have been on now for ~7 continuous hours, low volume, and the X4000 is just warm to the touch. It's about 70degF in the room, and I would guess the top of the X4000 is around 80-85degF. Just warm enough I'm sure the cat would curl up on top of it if it could. (Sorry, I can't find my IR temp meter.)

I play movies pretty loud... loud enough to shake the floor & windows. But that's the hardest workout they get. So far, so good.


If you don't mind, I have a question for you.
ATI AT3005 specs seem to be very close to the Emotiva XPA-5 specs. $3,595 vs. $999. Why the difference in price? Thanks.

Good to know Denon solved the heat issue with the AVR-3312.

I paid about $1700 for the AT3005. As far as explaining the difference in cost, I think others here could do a much better job than I.

But a few thoughts:
1. ATI is fully balanced.
2. ATI is made in California vs. EMO is made in China (much lower labor cost).
3. ATI offers 7 YR warranty vs. 5 YR warranty of EMO.
4. ATI has more heat sinks and cleaner internal engineering and layout.
5. ATI has much better built quality. I've owned the EMO MPS-2 and the built quality of the EMO is just not as good as ATI.
6. ATI has fuse-less protection circuit vs. regular fuses on the EMO.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I paid about $1700 for the AT3005.

For a new AT3005? How did you do that? Even the current CAP B-stock price is $3595. I got mine for $2700, A-stock from a dealer, but only because ATI threw in a channel for free. (I ordered an AT3004, and ATI ran out of 3004 back plates.) Did you mean the AT3002?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For a new AT3005? How did you do that? Even the current CAP B-stock price is $3595. I got mine for $2700, A-stock from a dealer, but only because ATI threw in a channel for free. (I ordered an AT3004, and ATI ran out of 3004 back plates.) Did you mean the AT3002?

Oops, sorry, I stand corrected. The AT3005 was $2300 + s/h from CAP. It was $2400 and they gave me another $100 discount. Maybe my AT2004 was $1600-1700 + s/h.

I think I paid $1400 for the AT3002 + s/h.

 

[Cos]

I always used to buy Yamaha Receivers and back in 2003 My dealer suggested separates. At that time I purchased the AVM 30 Anthem w/PVA 7 channel amp. I thought (imagined, or otherwise) that they sounded significantly better than my Yamaha RXV 1000. Since I already had separates, I kept buying pre pros. Went from Anthem to Marantz. had a really bad experience with the AV7005 and switched to Integra 80.3 which has worked like a champ. As I continue to upgrade the quality of speakers I have used over time and since I already had the separates, I just stuck with it.

Though I will say that the sound on the Halo (actual or perceived) made me stick with separates. I will be upgrading my speakers yet again to the Triton Ones when they come out.

 

[jinjuku]

That's true and I agree, if we were to limit the thread's topic to only Class D amps.
I was talking more of separates vs receivers in general.

Even a Class AB amp can have discrete components shrunk down to a wafer.

 

[Irvrobinson]

It's Moore Law. Crowns DriveCore is capable of 125 Watts with out a separate output section. All from a chip. They have an 8 channel version in 1 RU.

Silicon is driving down the need for discrete components driven at the 10's of watts into packages smaller than a postage stamp driven with 3.3 or 1.4 volts and tolerances that make fancy 1% caps and resistors look downright sloppy in there tolerances. Reducing the need for larger value caps and obviously the real estate needed.

Moore's Law is probably incidental to Drivecore, just guessing. It's probably more dependent on economics, IC packaging technology, and an innovative Class D design (for 90%-plus efficiency) than anything else. I also suspect there are some rather interesting thermal assumptions being made, like audio amplifiers typically running 10-30db below max power. In other words, I doubt that Crown is using impressively small feature geometries to fab that chip. I suspect the Drivecore chip is dissipating less than 140W on peaks, and even in studio situations I suspect it's dissipating only about 20W when the amp is "cruising". As you well know, CPUs operate at 150W power levels and beyond, so I think it was mostly an economic problem about whether to spend millions of dollars to develop and fabricate it.

You're also correct about Class AB amplifier chips. They've been sold for years and years, but assuming 30% efficiency (I'm being generous) and cheap packaging, the designs have low power output ratings for reasonable distortion. It really takes Class D or some other high efficiency strategy to make a single chip amplifier practical, unless you're willing to use an exotic (read expensive and/or noisy) cooling strategy.

I also agree with you that ICs can have better specifications than discrete circuits, but analog circuits aren't quite the same as digital ones. Digital circuits are only impacted by heat insofar as speeds that can be supported. Analog signals are still subject to distortion and noise on ICs, just as they are on discrete circuits, so I'm not sure that the lower distortion argument always holds for power amplifiers. For line-level signals I actually prefer ICs.

 

[mike c]

all the reasons above, BUT

i've tried expensive ones and high power pro ones. they didn't give me perceivable difference, so now i'm back to midlevel receivers while my amp sits in storage.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Pretty much the same reasons some people want cars that can go 150 mph.

Back in the earlier days of multi channel , Shure Brothers pro logic, there were no receivers with 5.1 capability if I can remember. So, I had separates and I sill have them.
Why get rid of them? Designed the built in with that in mind.

 

[itschris]

Processing changes over time. Power is power and doesn't go out of style or get outdated. My Sunfire is still the baddest *** piece of gear I have.

 

[jinjuku]

I switched from separates for HT to my Denon AVR. For my 2.0 I spent in separates what I would have (or even less) than a quality AVR.

Each scenario called for solutions that met actual need.

 

[ematthews]

I have both and like both. I always assumed separates were better. Guess I grew up reading and seeing all the BS on it. MY all audio system will remain as is but my new HT set up will most likely be an all in one AVR..Denon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have both and like both. I always assumed separates were better. Guess I grew up reading and seeing all the BS on it. MY all audio system will remain as is but my new HT set up will most likely be an all in one AVR..Denon

Ah, did you read some more Audio Critic?

 

[ematthews]

Ah, did you read some more Audio Critic?

I did a little. Will continue to read as well. I need to educate myself more on this hobby. Problem is... I will most likely become even more STUPID.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the feeback so far, now I think I know most of the reasons why others want to own separate amps. Like I said, mine initially was for sound quality as I thought for sure preamp/amp sounded much better than receivers. Later on I began to second guess, but keep on acquiring at the same time. My main reason now is not a good one, I just find it hard to resist the nice looking McIntosh amps, the possibility to trade in the 4BSST for a SST2 just to find out if the 2 would sound audibly better, another A21+A31 to replace the Marantz amp, a used Audio Research preamp, a low power Luxman etc etc.....

In practical sense I know it is better to trade in the speakers if I really want to have better sound quality, but speakers are expensive. If I were to go for better sound quality, I would have to spend at least another 25K to get a pair of Blades, or 15 to 18K for a pair of Salon2 and they really don't look better, just sounding better. Amps have buttons to play with, lights and gauges to watch (e.g. Mc), easier to swap in and out, lighter and easier to move in general. I don't know, deep down the reason could be that I just like electronics stuff more. So knowing that I should focus my money on speakers for sound quality gain, I still can't help but think about amps and media players more often.

View attachment 13405These two sounded similarly good to me in an A/B comparison a few days ago.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did a little. Will continue to read as well. I need to educate myself more on this hobby. Problem is... I will most likely become even more STUPID.

You will become wiser, of course.

But I should have warned that you would be taking the Red Pill and waking up from the Matrix.

Just don't go over the edge and buy the Linkwitz Orion like me.

 

[majorloser]

Because I have 100 amps of dedicated electrical circuits in my theater and want to use it all.


see below
vvvvvvvv

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks for the feeback so far, now I think I know most of the reasons why others want to own separate amps. Like I said, mine initially was for sound quality as I thought for sure preamp/amp sounded much better than receivers. Later on I began to second guess, but keep on acquiring at the same time. My main reason now is not a good one, I just find it hard to resist the nice looking McIntosh amps, the possibility to trade in the 4BSST for a SST2 just to find out if the 2 would sound audibly better, another A21+A31 to replace the Marantz amp, a used Audio Research preamp, a low power Luxman etc etc.....

In practical sense I know it is better to trade in the speakers if I really want to have better sound quality, but speakers are expensive. If I were to go for better sound quality, I would have to spend at least another 25K to get a pair of Blades, or 15 to 18K for a pair of Salon2 and they really don't look better, just sounding better. Amps have buttons to play with, lights and gauges to watch (e.g. Mc), easier to swap in and out, lighter and easier to move in general. I don't know, deep down the reason could be that I just like electronics stuff more. So knowing that I should focus my money on speakers for sound quality gain, I still can't help but think about amps and media players more often.

After you have procured the best speakers in the world, you will then come to the full realization that............there is no spoon.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Thanks for the feeback so far, now I think I know most of the reasons why others want to own separate amps. Like I said, mine initially was for sound quality as I thought for sure preamp/amp sounded much better than receivers. Later on I began to second guess, but keep on acquiring at the same time. My main reason now is not a good one, I just find it hard to resist the nice looking McIntosh amps, the possibility to trade in the 4BSST for a SST2 just to find out if the 2 would sound audibly better, another A21+A31 to replace the Marantz amp, a used Audio Research preamp, a low power Luxman etc etc.....

In practical sense I know it is better to trade in the speakers if I really want to have better sound quality, but speakers are expensive. If I were to go for better sound quality, I would have to spend at least another 25K to get a pair of Blades, or 15 to 18K for a pair of Salon2 and they really don't look better, just sounding better. Amps have buttons to play with, lights and gauges to watch (e.g. Mc), easier to swap in and out, lighter and easier to move in general. I don't know, deep down the reason could be that I just like electronics stuff more. So knowing that I should focus my money on speakers for sound quality gain, I still can't help but think about amps and media players more often.
View attachment 13405

I'm guessing you left out one factor... you're an EE and great electronics probably fascinate you. I know the feeling; I'm pretty sure I chose a Levinson amp fifteen years ago partially because when the dealer popped the lid for me I was taken by the sheer over-engineering I saw. Yeah, I thought it sounded awesome, but it also looked awesome.