Why are separates so much more expensive?

[TLS Guy]

You don't think they could just add volume controls to each speaker?
I mean if they can add amps and DSPs to the speakers already (i.e. Bang Olufsen BeoLab 5), how hard is adding volume controls?

The problem is architecture. One speaker would have to be the master, and communicate by wire or radio link with the others. In effect one speaker would be a receiver and speaker. I think a preamp would be much better as the controller. It would be more versatile also.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So back to the original question...

Why are separates so much more expensive?

With great companies like Emotiva producing 200 wpc x 5 ch amps for $800 and the new upcoming LMC-2 HDMI 1.3/TrueHD/DTS-MA pre-pros for about $600, you says separates are so much more expensive?

Especially when you compare this to receivers costing $1,500, $2,000, and even $5,000!!!

 

[Joe Schmoe]

So back to the original question...

Why are separates so much more expensive?

With great companies like Emotiva producing 200 wpc x 5 ch amps for $800 and the new upcoming LMC-2 HDMI 1.3/TrueHD/DTS-MA pre-pros for about $600, you says separates are so much more expensive?

Especially when you compare this to receivers costing $1,500, $2,000, and even $5,000!!!

Ok, so you can get a full-featured multichannel prepro+amp for less than an equivalent receiver. My original question, however, had to do with 2-channel. As far as I know, you cannot get a good, modest-powered preamp+amp for less than (or the same as) an equivalent 2-channel integrated.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok, so you can get a full-featured multichannel prepro+amp for less than an equivalent receiver. My original question, however, had to do with 2-channel. As far as I know, you cannot get a good, modest-powered preamp+amp for less than (or the same as) an equivalent 2-channel integrated.

Yeah, a 2-ch integrated system will practically sound just as good as a separate amp + 2-ch preamp.

 

[cbraver]

Yeah, a 2-ch integrated system will practically sound just as good as a separate amp + 2-ch preamp.

Would you elaborate on this, please? The way I'm interpeting it is that any two channel integrated will sound practically as good as any seperate amp and prepro. With the wide variety of audio equipment out there, I think sound quality is widely dependant on quality of the system as a whole, not how it is broken up. I would imagine there are integrated systems that are better than seperate systems and vice versa.

 

[Warpdrv]

Emotiva producing 200 wpc x 5 ch amps for $800

$699.00 is the target price...

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Would you elaborate on this, please? The way I'm interpeting it is that any two channel integrated will sound practically as good as any seperate amp and prepro. With the wide variety of audio equipment out there, I think sound quality is widely dependant on quality of the system as a whole, not how it is broken up. I would imagine there are integrated systems that are better than seperate systems and vice versa.

The only reason that separates exist is because they are supposed to sound better. If this is not the case, why would anyone buy them?

 

[B3Nut]

Because sometimes you need more power than a 2-channel integrated can provide. Some loudspeakers need amplifiers that can source large amounts of current, and normally only separate power amplifiers have robust enough power supplies to provide it. At the high end one often finds loudspeakers that are "amp-eaters"...relatively-inefficient speakers that present difficult loads to an amplifier due to a wildly fluctuating phase response. The classic AR9 is such a speaker, not only can it eat amps but the clipping a weak amp is driven to attempting to drive it can make short work of the near-unobtanium tweeter. The good news is an esoteric nosebleed amplifier is not necessary, a good QSC or Crown (or even WmAx's favorite Behringer) is perfectly adequate.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Would you elaborate on this, please? The way I'm interpeting it is that any two channel integrated will sound practically as good as any seperate amp and prepro. With the wide variety of audio equipment out there, I think sound quality is widely dependant on quality of the system as a whole, not how it is broken up. I would imagine there are integrated systems that are better than seperate systems and vice versa.

Yeah, that's what I mean. You can't expect a $100 preamp + $100 amp to sound better than a $1,000 receiver or integrated 2-ch system.

Disclaimer: price does not always correlate with quality, nothing is black and white, and everything depends on a lot of things.

Did I miss something else?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

$699.00 is the target price...

$700 for a high quality Emotiva 200 wpc x 5 amp, are you kidding me?
That's going to kill all the competition!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The only reason that separates exist is because they are supposed to sound better. If this is not the case, why would anyone buy them?

Yeah, I think the key word there is "SUPPOSED TO".

Separates are supposed to sound better, but there are no guarantees.

I think if we do a retrospective review of separate 2-ch preamps vs receivers and pre-pros, we may find that the separate 2-ch preamps SUBJECTIVELY outperforms the receivers and pre-pros.

But there are no guarantees.

 

[3db]

Yeah, that's what I mean. You can't expect a $100 preamp + $100 amp to sound better than a $1,000 receiver or integrated 2-ch system.

Disclaimer: price does not always correlate with quality, nothing is black and white, and everything depends on a lot of things.

Did I miss something else?

unless there is a Santa Claus, a divorce settlement, or its used, there is no such thing as $100 pre/pro or power amp.

 

[3db]

Yeah, I think the key word there is "SUPPOSED TO".

Separates are supposed to sound better, but there are no guarantees.

I think if we do a retrospective review of separate 2-ch preamps vs receivers and pre-pros, we may find that the separate 2-ch preamps SUBJECTIVELY outperforms the receivers and pre-pros.

But there are no guarantees.

Like it was mentioned before, power amps are able to better control difficult speaker loads. Better control = better sound.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

unless there is a Santa Claus, a divorce settlement, or its used, there is no such thing as $100 pre/pro or power amp.

Okay, how about a $160 stereo preamp:
http://www.escstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=79303

and a $103 stereo amp:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00026BQJ6/ref=pd_cp_e_0?pf_rd_p=250314601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00004UFQJ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=19AQN12SYVRAE6E5AP7D

 

[3db]

Okay, how about a $160 stereo preamp:
http://www.escstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=79303

and a $103 stereo amp:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00026BQJ6/ref=pd_cp_e_0?pf_rd_p=250314601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00004UFQJ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=19AQN12SYVRAE6E5AP7D

*LMAO*

I guess I should have qualified. I would not buy this amp if I had to control low sensitivity highload speakers. From what little detail I see in the specs, I'd say its using a switched power supply. This is in the same league as an entry level receiver.

 

[highfihoney]

unless there is a Santa Claus, a divorce settlement, or its used, there is no such thing as $100 pre/pro or power amp.

When has any divorce settlement left a man enough to buy a power amp,unless you mean that the guy is so broke after paying his settlement all he can afford is that little amp

 

[3db]

When has any divorce settlement left a man enough to buy a power amp,unless you mean that the guy is so broke after paying his settlement all he can afford is that little amp

Soon to be ex-wife letting it go for a steal to get back at her soon to be exhubby *LOL*

 

[DD66000]

Thanks, but 20 wpc is more than enough for the typical home theater, let alone 200 wpc - particularly one with powered sub. If a 200 wpc amplifier were actually run at full power it would blow circuit breakers and break speakers. You couldn't use all that power even if you wanted to or had equipment that could take it.

I have a receiver with 130 "real" wpc and that is a difference of only 2 db in overhead from 200 wpc - barely audible. The receiver is built like tank and looks super to me. I doubt the amps have ever been asked to put out more than 15 wpc.

I Used to use a preamp/processor and an array of 3 stereo amplifiers until May of last year. I switched to a receiver for the convenience of it. Glad I did. I'm not against separates, I just understand that their real purpose is to make their owners happier, not their home theaters more effective. Been there done that I don't know how many times. Too many for sure. Take care.

One way to tell how much power you're using is to start at 0db, which would be the rated power. Then for every -3db cut the power by half.
In my case, using a 220wpc amp @ -15db its running 7w. But that's not counting explosions and the like. And not all of that comes from the sub, certainly if the main/surround speakers have eight inch mid-bass drivers.
Play a movie sometime, with the subs off, and you'll hear how much bass is really coming from the mid-bass drivers.

Then there is also the source, I find that many of the HD channels, on my cable system, the sound is way down from others.
In particular HDNet and HDM. While watching concerts, I'm more likely to be between -9 ~ -6db, that's 55db, not counting peaks.

A few years ago, when I was using a Marantz receiver, I added the Paraound amp, which was more than double the power, it made a big improvement to the overall sound.

 

[Seth=L]

Why is this thread still going?

Separates are more expensive because of the prestige.

Separate amplifiers typically have better low impedance capability and better slew rates. They are bigger and badder than receivers. They charge a premium (well most manufacturers do, Outlaw and Emotiva are good at offering fair prices on products) because they can.

 

[mperfct]

I would surmise that you can freely spend all you want on separates, but the only true way to get the good results you are looking for can only come from A-B testing (blind testing even better). It's difficult to overcome the placebo effect after dropping a chunk of change on equipment.