Why are separates so much more expensive?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

....If I am only doing casual listening, they all sound the same. But if I really get into a concentrated listening session...

We CASUALLY listen for enjoyment and be transported to great places, not for serious concentrated critical sessions.

And I'm sure most members here already think this, but I'll ask again - did you actually at least use a SPL meter to level match the same exact song?

Do you know what is the voltage gain on each of those amps?

 

[ski2xblack]

While DD66000 may have made statements that pique the ire of the skeptics, who I happen to agree with by the way, he also mentions bias settings as possibly being responsible. I would throw output impedance in there too, as in my experience that has always correlated with "deep image" due to the back emf/room reverb efffect. I would imagine the newer HK to have rock bottom output impedance; if the Citation is double or triple that, while still probably well below tube amp territory, it could be high enough to produce audible effects.

Just conjecture here. I figure this zombie thread can handle it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

While DD66000 may have made statements that pique the ire of the skeptics, who I happen to agree with by the way, he also mentions bias settings as possibly being responsible. I would throw output impedance in there too, as in my experience that has always correlated with "deep image" due to the back emf/room reverb efffect. I would imagine the newer HK to have rock bottom output impedance; if the Citation is double or triple that, while still probably well below tube amp territory, it could be high enough to produce audible effects.

Just conjecture here. I figure this zombie thread can handle it.

I would suggest that a high output impedance in an amp will cause it's frequency response to follow that of the speaker itself, not the amps fr into a resistive load.
Change in bias in a tube amp would cause a change in distortion, no?
Neither would correlate to soundstage. Phase shift on the other hand could.

 

[ski2xblack]

I would suggest that a high output impedance in an amp will cause it's frequency response to follow that of the speaker itself, not the amps fr into a resistive load.

True, but you must be aware that it goes further than that. On top of the load dependent frequency response aberrations, the room's response is picked up from the speakers themselves due to the same undamped amp characteristics and superimposed on the signal. Both issues share the same root cause, and both are easily quantifiable in objective terms. You don't get one without the other.

Phase shift on the other hand could [correlate to soundstage].

Yes! The room-reverb signal, even buried -30db or more below the source signal level, having traversed the listening room would exhibit considerable phase shifts r/t the source signal, likely accounting for the reported soundstage characteristics, wouldn't you agree?

I think we're both correct. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Personal opinions/ hypotheses is one thing. It's just one word against other opinions from Peter Aczel, David Rich, Siegfried Linkwitz, Sean Olive, etc.

Double-blinded studies and actual documentation by audio experts like the Audio Critic is another.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Double-blinded studies and actual documentation by audio experts like the Audio Critic is another.

The problem is that Azcel has done nothing special with the Audio Critic for years now. All of those studies, while of value, were done with obsolete equipment. Azcel's most recent work is little more than assertion, and a few odd measurements.

(Of course, as I've posted before, I hate DBTs and don't trust their outcomes WRT audio equipment. I do like measurements, though, so I'll even read Stereophile, just to get JA's measurement sections.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem is that Azcel has done nothing special with the Audio Critic for years now. All of those studies, while of value, were done with obsolete equipment. Azcel's most recent work is little more than assertion, and a few odd measurements.

(Of course, as I've posted before, I hate DBTs and don't trust their outcomes WRT audio equipment. I do like measurements, though, so I'll even read Stereophile, just to get JA's measurement sections.)

I believe in measurement too. And I think if 2 amps measure the same / similar, they will also sound the same/ similar. They are not like speakers.

 

[ski2xblack]

Is that aimed at my post? If so, know I'm not making any of that up. It's a function of the speaker's ability to convert acoustic energy back into electrical energy (higher sensitivity speakers can convert more sound back to electrical energy), and the amp's ability to damp it out (the higher the output impedance of the amp, the more of that signal from the speaker gets through). It can be directly measured quite easily. It's real. Any amp that exhibits frequency response nonlinearity due to suboptimal output impedance will also exhibit microphonic behavior from the speakers. Big claim? Aczel et al. would probably consider this a worthless exercise in analyzing the characteristics of flawed amps, but I think they would smell what I'm stepping in and agree that it's supported by all available evidence and established electrical theory.

But, yes, for amps with that meet established engineering standards of fidelity, whose output impedance is practically zero, it's not an issue at all. In my earlier posts I was trying to present some thoughts on what DD66000 may be hearing in his situation, and trying to keep it evidence based, before throwing him under the DBT bus. (He may still need such treatment, I'm simply trying to be simultaneously collegial yet not overly accomodating. That ok?)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is that aimed at my post? If so, know I'm not making any of that up. It's a function of the speakers ability to convert acoustic energy back into electrical energy (higher sensitivity speakers can convert more sound back to electrical energy), and the amps ability to damp it out (the higher the output impedance of the amp, the more of that added signal gets through). It can be directly measured quite easily. It's real. Any amp that exhibits frequency response nonlinearity due to suboptimal output impedance will also exhibit microphonic behavior from the speakers. Big claim? Aczel et al. would probably consider this a worthless exercise in analyzing the characteristics of flawed amps, but I think they would smell what I'm stepping in and agree that it's supported by all available evidence and established electrical theory.

But, yes, for amps with that meet established engineering standards of fidelity, whose output impedance is practically zero, it's not an issue at all. In my earlier posts I was trying to present some thoughts on what DD66000 may be hearing in his situation, and trying to keep it evidence based, before throwing him under the DBT bus. (He may still need such treatment, I'm simply trying to be simultaneously collegial yet not overly accomodating. That ok?)

Not at your post or DD66000. Or anyone. Just the general same vs not same amp debate, which will go on forever. Kind of funny. Of course, it doesn't really matter to any of us at the end of the day. The 2 camps will always coexist. I supper it makes things more interesting.

 

[ski2xblack]

After reviewing the owners manual and specs for DD's Citation 19, I see that it has high damping factor/low output impedance. So I was wrong. I don't think any of my rambling above applies to his situation.

 

[PENG]

After reviewing the owners manual and specs for DD's Citation 19, I see that it has high damping factor/low output impedance. So I was wrong. I don't think any of my rambling above applies to his situation.

Still, I think you are most likely right about......may still need such treatment.....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One question. What if the AVR has better SNR, Crosstalk, THD+N measurements than the separate components?

Would the separates still "outperform" the AVRs in SQ even though the AVRs outperform the separates on those numbers?

Would a $10,000 class A/B amp still sound better than a $1K class D amp if the $1K amp has better measurements?

 

[cpp]

One question. What if the AVR has better SNR, Crosstalk, THD+N measurements than the separate components?

Would the separates still "outperform" the AVRs in SQ even though the AVRs outperform the separates on those numbers?

Would a $10,000 class A/B amp still sound better than a $1K class D amp if the $1K amp has better measurements?

Measurements of an amp or receiver might be one thing but the sound out of the speakers, well actually tells the story

I think it all depends on the person, their ears, their space and what they personally wants to spend. It's like speakers, will a $20,000 pair of speakers sound better than a $3,000 pair ? all depend on the person and their ears, their music and their room.

 

[PENG]

One question. What if the AVR has better SNR, Crosstalk, THD+N measurements than the separate components?

Would the separates still "outperform" the AVRs in SQ even though the AVRs outperform the separates on those numbers?

Would a $10,000 class A/B amp still sound better than a $1K class D amp if the $1K amp has better measurements?

Of course the 10,000 one will sound better unless you swap the guts of the two and the outside of either one still look the same with the same buttons etc., then the other one will sound better. Remember it all depends on the person's eyes.

 

[Irishman]

I know separates are supposed to sound better than receivers or integrated amps, but why such a friggen huge price gap? For example: the entry-level NAD integrated amp is $350 while their cheapest preamp+power amp is $1400. It is this way with most brands for which I am able to find price lists.

I noticed some of the other guys mentioned Emotiva, which is considered by many to be a steal for what you get. I would also add to the list for you to consider - Outlaw Audio.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html

They make some aggressively-priced separates, too, that are great performers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Of course the 10,000 one will sound better unless you swap the guts of the two and the outside of either one still look the same with the same buttons etc., then the other one will sound better. Remember it all depends on the person's eyes.

You mean a $10K 200WPC Mark Levinson amp sounds better than a $2K 200WPC ATI amp even though they may be essentially clones?

Yeah, the perception dictates the sound.

Bottom line is, if you have the cash, you can buy whatever your heart desires. And then justify that it sounds better!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I noticed some of the other guys mentioned Emotiva, which is considered by many to be a steal for what you get. I would also add to the list for you to consider - Outlaw Audio.

Products

They make some aggressively-priced separates, too, that are great performers.

ATI makes the 200wpc and 300wpc amps for Outlaw. So I have respect for Outlaw.