Why am I so underwhelmed with Atmos/DTS-X?

[WookieGR]

you raise an excellent point. If the point is NOT to hear anything directly above you, then maybe I was expecting too much of atmos. Some people claim those 4 atmos speakers can pin point an object anyway in 3D space. I took that literally. I expected to hear rain pouring down on me, not around me.

Alternativey, if people actually mean atmos gives them an elevated surround sound, and it’s more-or-less localized at the speaker’s location (similar to most ground level surround sound effects) then I was expecting way too much.

So I guess the question is: does anyone with a good atmos set up actually hear objects moving in 3D? NOT from speaker to speaker, but floating anywhere in 3D, defying the actual speaker location (like a singer’s voice imaged between well placed stereo speaker). Do your atmos speakers literally track an object in locations floating in air?

Main L&R speakers can struggle to image a sound within its soundstage if they are not perfectly positioned, so is it realistic to think atmos speaker can? Are some people exaggerating their atmos experience, while others are expecting way too much? Just a thought.

I posted a video regarding the effects a DIRAC calibration had on my 9 channel media room setup. I was using a Denon AVR X4400H with audyssey and thought the effects were just ok. When i replaced the Denon with the new Onkyo TX-RZ50 and ran DIRAC it was like a whole new system. Honestly, with a proper calibrated and timber matched system it's hard to live without 3D audio.

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Video review and DIRAC results.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Keep in mind, a lot of this stuff is gimmicky, concocted to generate sales of new equipment. For example, 7.1.6 that you mentioned, what is that for? To my knowledge, there isn't a single studio mixing 7.1.6 content for home release and you probably will never see it. Home theaters are "small rooms" studios mix content differently for home theaters than they do large commercial theaters because they know you can only fit some many speakers into a small room and they know that not that many speakers are needed in a small room to get the same effect as a large theatre. With that being said, 7.1. 4 might have been overkill in your room. Truth be told, Dolby Atmos is very difficult to do right in the typical home, most can't really implement it per Dolby's recommendation, overhead speakers firing down at the listeners in a small room. If you cut holes in your ceiling for speakers and it doesn't produce the results you expected, in the case with you, as you discovered, they might be too far apart, you are pretty much screwed unless you cut more holes in the ceiling to get it right.

I've noticed when some enthusiast set up a Dolby Atmos system in the home, some complain about not hearing enough information and/or sound or effects coming from above them. The sound mixers are not doing enough with the overhead sounds, so then they are disappointed. However, in real life, not that many sounds are heard about us, 90 percent of sounds come from side us and upward, not directly above our domes, that is why from a technical and practical perspective, Auro-3D systems made more sense for the home than does Dolby Atmos, because the Auro approach was to mix from sides and then upward towards the ceiling and not from directly above us, although in Auro-3D they did offer the single overheard speaker referred to as the VOG. So it's really good thing that they don't place that many sound directly above us because they could become gimmicky, unrealistic and destracting. Instead of immersing you into sound, thereby enhancing the movie experience, its taking you out of it.

Please observe, the next time you go outside of your home or in the city and a helicopter is flying above and compare it with some of the sounds mixes and see if the recorded sound is realistic.

You can back to your fallout bunker Mr. grinch.

How IS your Atmos system btw?
There is a lot of conjecture in the two quotes above. Do you really think there was a conspiracy between all three immersive formats and gear manufacturers to sell equipment? That’s ludicrous. Also, they do mix in larger rooms, but also get remixed in smaller ones for the “near field” mix. It is disappointing that after all this time, and hundreds of mixes, there are a lot of duds out there. But that’s been true for many years over multiple formats, so even they’ll think it’s another reason to crap on Atmos, it’s not.
Also. I live close to a military camp. They’re flying stuff back and forth all the time, so I’m very familiar with the sounds of planes and helicopters overhead. IME(yes experience for which I still think you have none with Atmos) some mixes do get right. Some don’t. But do ALL sound effects sound like real life? No. That can be part of the fun. Also, you have to remember that Atmos isn’t simply about sounds from above.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

you raise an excellent point. If the point is NOT to hear anything directly above you, then maybe I was expecting too much of atmos. Some people claim those 4 atmos speakers can pin point an object anywhere in 3D space. I took that literally. I expected to hear rain pouring down on me, not around me. And I expected to hear a bullet whiz past my ear, not just hear the bullet jump from one overhead speaker to another.

Alternatively, if people actually mean atmos gives them an elevated surround sound, and it’s more-or-less localized at the speaker’s location (similar to some ground level surround sound effects) then I was expecting way too much.

So I guess the question is: does anyone with a good atmos setup actually hear objects moving in 3D? NOT from speaker to speaker, but floating anywhere in 3D, defying the actual speaker location (like a singer’s voice imaged between well placed stereo speakers). Do your atmos speakers literally track an object in locations floating in air?

Main L&R speakers can struggle to image a sound within its soundstage if they are not perfectly positioned, so is it realistic to think atmos speakers can? Are some people exaggerating their atmos experience, while others are expecting way too much? Just a thought.

No. He doesn’t have a point. He never does, and just likes to whine about stuff that HE doesn’t want to spend money on, and is too lazy to do the work on. Nobody cares because it’s the same ol drivel…

Anyways. To your question. Yes. I have heard things IN my room and have found that many mixes are very immersive overall. I actually recently watched Avengers End Game, again. I wasn’t listening for in room objects specifically, but there were sounds from all directions and I never felt distracted. In fact some things came flying past and around me were startling, but in a good way, connecting me to the action. Not the best mix ever, but very very good.
One of my favorite objects comes from Hunger Games catching fire(iirc). After katness is finished singing a song, a bird flys off screen to the right rear corner of the room. I absolutely swear i can feel it fly past. In fact the first time I saw that, I tried to dodge it lol.
This isn’t just due to the four height speakers as you said though. It’s a function of phantom imaging between the bed layer and the height layer. I believe you’re right though about imaging being difficult. I think it works better in bigger rooms for multiple seats especially, since in a smaller room with a listener to the side, or closer to a particular speaker the image would collapse to that from pressident effect.
To your last point, it’s a good question, and I don’t think has a simple answer. Expectations vs reality is complicated. Made more so by odd rooms not built for installing home theaters, mixes that are not very good, bad speaker placement and not knowing what to expect. I’ll admit that when I first tried out Atmos in MY room, I was a little disappointed, as I had very high expectations. But I made few tweaks, and found some better titles, and I found out that I do love Atmos. When it’s done right. So please don’t mistake me for a fanboi lol. But I’m am an advocate.

 

[SFS]

One of my favorite objects comes from Hunger Games catching fire(iirc). After katness is finished singing a song, a bird flys off screen to the right rear corner of the room. I absolutely swear i can feel it fly past. In fact the first time I saw that, I tried to dodge it lol.

Cool. I wanna sample that scene. Do you recall where in the movie that scene is? I want to try it xx4 vs xx2 in my room with my set up.

 

[lovinthehd]

As one who hasn't wanted the extra setup....I'm not expecting a whole lot if I do. As usual better speakers and setup in your room will go a long ways, but if you have the room to highlight something like a good Atmos installation, go for it!

 

[3db]

ATMOS is not a game changer for me either despite the hype. I notice it but it doesnt blow me away like the original 5.1 did. Then 6.1 came out, then 7.1 but meh, it wasnt "the" big deal anymore. Same goes for ATMOS. Im still gob smacked when I watch U571 in 5.1. To me, no movie has come close to the realism that U571 offers when the sub is creaking and the rivots are popping.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Cool. I wanna sample that scene. Do you recall where in the movie that scene is? I want to try it xx4 vs xx2 in my room with my set up.

I think I actually misspoke. It’s not catching fire. It was Mockingjay part one. I THINK lol. It’s been at least a year since I watched that.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

As one who hasn't wanted the extra setup....I'm not expecting a whole lot if I do. As usual better speakers and setup in your room will go a long ways, but if you have the room to highlight something like a good Atmos installation, go for it!

It’s good to temper your expectations for sure. That’s smart. I also can’t blame you for not wanting the work and expense. For me I was sold on the hype, and I don’t mind climbing in my attic. At least you don’t whine and poo poo everything like someone else we know.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

ATMOS is not a game changer for me either despite the hype. I notice it but it doesnt blow me away like the original 5.1 did. Then 6.1 came out, then 7.1 but meh, it wasnt "the" big deal anymore. Same goes for ATMOS. Im still gob smacked when I watch U571 in 5.1. To me, no movie has come close to the realism that U571 offers when the sub is creaking and the rivots are popping.

I’ve always loved that track. I remember back when I had a 7.3 system. I was watching that with my BIL. When their uboat goes through the junk underwater, he jumps off the couch and goes to the window. He thought someone was out in my yard doing something. Lmao.

 

[lovinthehd]

It’s good to temper your expectations for sure. That’s smart. I also can’t blame you for not wanting the work and expense. For me I was sold on the hype, and I don’t mind climbing in my attic. At least you don’t whine and poo poo everything like someone else we know.

If that part of the attic was nearer the access, but it's the furthest away Then again the permanence of the living room....or figuring out another room down the line....really not interested in much house alteration for Atmos

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If that part of the attic was nearer the access, but it's the furthest away Then again the permanence of the living room....or figuring out another room down the line....really not interested in much house alteration for Atmos

That’s absolutely reasonable.

 

[TLS Guy]

I do not watch a lot of movies, my collection of Atmos BDs is very small. Of that small collection, the movie Hacksaw Ridge is very convincing. So much so, that when the bullets fly, it is hard to avoid the instinct to duck and take cover.

What I do find is rewarding is the performance of the Dolby Digital Surround up mixer's ability to produce a very natural facsimile of original acoustics from two channel sources. I find this remarkable. I have never localized to any of the four ceiling speakers, or the others for that matter, unless a producer puts a definite voice on a surround speaker for instance.

I think there is some misunderstanding of the principles underlying the Atmos technology. It is based on orthodox 3D coordinate geometry using x,y and z coordinates.

Every pin point location in any room can be defined by those three coordinates. So the objects, a bullet for instance moves as the x,y,z coordinates change instantaneously over time as the object moves. So the sound of that object moves as the power to all speakers changes and directs the movement.

Now what this means, is that for this to work optimally, all speakers must be in the exact positions specified for the system you are using.

So, I set this room up with all speakers at the precise Dolby specifications, to the absolute letter. In addition the speakers really need to be consistent, especially the fronts, surrounds and rear backs. The ceiling speakers should be as neutral as possible. I have the advantage here, since I am the designer of all the speakers. After doing this for so long, I am able to make my speakers have extremely similar tonality and acoustic presentation, even if the drivers are different. This is to me at least is by far the most difficult aspect of speaker design to master. However in a multichannel system it is crucial I believe, for optimal results.

Having said all that two good speakers can provide 90% of the loaf. The rest is incremental benefit. I am far from convinced that having more than two or three speakers in an open plan room provides any benefit whatsoever.

That is a huge problem for domestic systems, as getting really good results, does require a dedicated space designed for the purpose. This is seldom possible for obvious reasons.

I have said this many times, that two or three really good front speakers is going to give far better and more convincing results than 11 mediocre ones and especially poor ones. Even at that, the center speaker is so problematic that two speakers is often preferable. If you do use a center speaker, then it takes over as being the most important speaker of the lot. It is by far the most difficult to design, and in my view needs to be a highly specialized speaker designed for that role.

I can attest to what I have said, as I have a 2.2 system, a 3.1 system and a 7.2.4 system. But the I could easily live with the 2 channel system and for that matter even do without the subs. It is a very pleasurable system, and I listen to it a lot in the winter season.

Lastly I truly believe that adding poorer speakers implemented badly by poor position, for instance, sets your system back. I am certain there are many, many systems that would be better off with less speakers.

 

[Trebdp83]

It is what it is. Some enjoy atmos while others do not enjoy it. More still haven’t tried it and apparently I’m the only one using height virtualization of Dolby and DTS in a 5.1 setup. I love it. I am, however, distressed by how often “Surround Back” speakers are referred to as “rear back” speakers. It’s superfluous while also being inaccurate. There are no rear back speakers. In a Dolby setup, there are “Surround Back” speakers and “Rear Height” speakers, but no “rear back” speakers. There are also “Top Rear” speakers and then there is the Auro 3-D setup, but who gives a s#%t?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Try this out!

You’ll have to download it to thumb drive since afaik YouTube is still only 2.0.
You should be able to dial in some things with this. Very well done.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It is what it is. Some enjoy atmos while others do not enjoy it. More still haven’t tried it and apparently I’m the only one using height virtualization of Dolby and DTS in a 5.1 setup. I love it. I am, however, distressed by how often “Surround Back” speakers are referred to as “rear back” speakers. It’s superfluous while also being inaccurate. There are no rear back speakers. In a Dolby setup, there are “Surround Back” speakers and “Rear Height” speakers, but no “rear back” speakers. There are also “Top Rear” speakers and then there is the Auro 3-D setup, but who gives a s#%t?

Really curious for you to try the link I put up. Wondering how it will translate with virtualization.

 

[SFS]

Try this out!

You’ll have to download it to thumb drive since afaik YouTube is still only 2.0.
You should be able to dial in some things with this. Very well done.

This is amazing. I haven’t tried it yet, but this might be most helpful demo yet, if it works. Thanks!

Last night I watched the intro to Uncut Gems since it was recommended in an article as a good Atmos demo. What a disappointment. On my system is was just a ball of disorienting confusion, which may have been the point of the scene, but it was not helpful at all.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is amazing. I haven’t tried it yet, but this might be most helpful demo yet, if it works. Thanks!

Last night I watched the intro to Uncut Gems since it was recommended in an article as a good Atmos demo. What a disappointment. On my system is was just a ball of disorienting confusion, which may have been the point of the scene, but it was not helpful at all.

Interesting. Is that Adam Sandler?

Can I ask what your speakers are, and how they’re setup? Or pics even? You know, a picture and a thousand words lol.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is amazing. I haven’t tried it yet, but this might be most helpful demo yet, if it works. Thanks!

Last night I watched the intro to Uncut Gems since it was recommended in an article as a good Atmos demo. What a disappointment. On my system is was just a ball of disorienting confusion, which may have been the point of the scene, but it was not helpful at all.

Also. I haven’t watched the new link yet, but did watch an earlier one from last week. I’ll post it too. It’s simpler, but still pretty cool.
I think you’ll like this one a lot. Should be helpful I hope. I did listen to it in my truck though…lmao.

 

[lovinthehd]

Also. I haven’t watched the new link yet, but did watch an earlier one from last week. I’ll post it too. It’s simpler, but still pretty cool.
I think you’ll like this one a lot. Should be helpful I hope. I did listen to it in my truck though…lmao.

Atmos in the truck? I imagine there are those doing that, tho.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Atmos in the truck? I imagine there are those doing that, tho.

Lmao! Nope. It sounded hilarious. Basically LR panning with some spl increases.