Why am I so underwhelmed with Atmos/DTS-X?

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wallmounted RP500SA at a height of 6 feet as instructed by my Yamaha AVR manual

I wonder if the part in the Yamaha manual you referenced was talking about their proprietary “height” speakers, and not Atmos.
Atmos speakers should be well above that. How many pairs? If only two, try to the sides about three feet in front of the LP where the ceiling meets the wall. If four, use the same placement at 45° fore and aft.
I’d say at least part of the problem is the placement. They should be higher than 6’, so not a fault of Dolby’s, but an installation issue.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also have you had a chance to look at this?

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

It’s more helpful IMO than Yamahas manual.
I have others but can’t paste, and Dolby hid the white papers somewhere...

 

[Garway]

I wonder if the part in the Yamaha manual you referenced was talking about their proprietary “height” speakers, and not Atmos.
Atmos speakers should be well above that. How many pairs? If only two, try to the sides about three feet in front of the LP where the ceiling meets the wall. If four, use the same placement at 45° fore and aft.
I’d say at least part of the problem is the placement. They should be higher than 6’, so not a fault of Dolby’s, but an installation issue.

I believe you are correct

 

[Garway]

Also have you had a chance to look at this?

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

It’s more helpful IMO than Yamahas manual.
I have others but can’t paste, and Dolby hid the white papers somewhere...

Thanks, this is very helpful.

 

[Garway]

I now realized not all Atmos soundtracks are created equal from a movie source. I tweaked all the volumes for each speaker for a better balance of sound. I found a Amazon Prime show called Carnival Row and actually heard the buzzing of the wings coming from above ….

 

[SFS]

I have had several months now with my Atmos/DTS-X set up and must say I am not impressed. Maybe it's my equipment, my room acoustics or a setting that is incorrect with my AVR or Audyssey even though I have checked and rechecked these possible causes many times. I hear from many forum members who get a great immersive experience from their system. Most of my movie watching is thru Netflix and Amazon Prime. I know that most of this source material was not recorded in an immersive format but even when I use Neural:X upmixer I am not getting much of an immersive experience. I also have a few Bluray Atmos movies that I play thru my Oppo player that sound better but not really immersive in my opinion. Any ideas on what could be causing this disappointing experience? Please look at my equipment in my signature thanks in advance.

I had the exact same experience.

I followed Dolby’s recommended speaker placement for in-ceiling speakers. After a lot of disappointed, I am left with the impression that the speakers are way too far apart (and/or my ceilings are too low - 7.5ft). When using 7.1.4, I get zero imaging and a big empty space above my head. I never hear anything directly above me.

So I gave up on 7.1.4, and moved to 7.1.2. But I put the middle row ceiling speakers closer together than Dolby recommends. Finally I hear things above me. To be clear, I do not hear objects in a 3D bubble above/around me, but I do hear rain falling on my head and a plane/spaceship/etc directly above me. I figure I’m getting something like Auro’s VOG effect.

Even though I much prefer 7.1.2 over 7.1.4, I still want the full 3D atmos effect. I’m hoping 7.1.6 will finally solve the problem, but most atmos tracks are locked at 7.1.4 even if you have a 15ch processor.

Anyway, that’s my experience. Anyone else have same experience or any suggestions?

 

[Pogre]

I think that there isn't a lot of stuff with atmos content, and the stuff that does have it is only there for occasional effect. I think it's a matter of adjusting expectations. When it comes down to it I don't think atmos speakers in general get a ton of play.

 

[SFS]

I think that there isn't a lot of stuff with atmos content, and the stuff that does have it is only there for occasional effect. I think it's a matter of adjusting expectations. When it comes down to it I don't think atmos speakers in general get a ton of play.

You’re probably right. I know this is only my personal opinion (and many disagree) but I found 9.1.0 was more immersive than 7.1.4, even though the wides are essentially “fake” matrixed sounds. For me, wides created a seamless and enveloping sound stage. Atmos, is more of a spotty “elevated” surround sound effect full of gaps, in my opinion. I never got the promised 3D bubble from atmos in my set up.

For what it’s worth I also find Dolby recommends putting the rear surround speakers too far apart leaving a big hole directly behind you. I preferred THX’s old recommendations of only 1 speaker in the back, and I believe audio research supported this configuration. But Dolby’s formats dominate the industry, so it is what it is.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I had the exact same experience.

I followed Dolby’s recommended speaker placement for in-ceiling speakers. After a lot of disappointed, I am left with the impression that the speakers are way too far apart (and/or my ceilings are too low - 7.5ft). When using 7.1.4, I get zero imaging and a big empty space above my head. I never hear anything directly above me.

So I gave up on 7.1.4, and moved to 7.1.2. But I put the middle row ceiling speakers closer together than Dolby recommends. Finally I hear things above me. To be clear, I do not hear objects in a 3D bubble above/around me, but I do hear rain falling on my head and a plane/spaceship/etc directly above me. I figure I’m getting something like Auro’s VOG effect.

Even though I much prefer 7.1.2 over 7.1.4, I still want the full 3D atmos effect. I’m hoping 7.1.6 will finally solve the problem, but most atmos tracks are locked at 7.1.4 even if you have a 15ch processor.

Anyway, that’s my experience. Anyone else have same experience or any suggestions?

How far apart are your top speakers, and what are the room dimensions? There has been a lot of discussion on height/top speaker placement in reference to Dolby’s guides. This one is the worst offender.As you found out, following this guides recommendation to place tops as far apart as the mains doesn’t always work. Especially with a low ceiling height.

This is included in a more granular guide.

The recommendation is to place the tops .5 to .7 the width of your widest speakers. The main thing is being centered over the listener. That will give much better phantom imaging and image placement overhead, and into the room.
I don’t think your issue is 7.1.4 vs 7.1.2.
7.1.4 IS better than 7.12. In fact, Ime even 5.1.4 is better than 7.1.2.
9.1.6 won’t fix your problem in the way you think. Some tracks only place height effects in the middles, and some don’t use them at all. I can’t remember off hand which do what. You’ll also need a processor/AVR that can do .6. Unless of course you have one.
Also not all soundtracks are great. But that’s not new lol.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think that there isn't a lot of stuff with atmos content, and the stuff that does have it is only there for occasional effect. I think it's a matter of adjusting expectations. When it comes down to it I don't think atmos speakers in general get a ton of play.

Actually there are hundreds of movies with Atmos tracks.
But you are right that sometimes they don’t get used much. This really depends on who did the mix. Not all tracks are created equal.
Adjusting expectations is also a good point. Many people never heard an Atmos system until they installed one in their own homes. Then what? They’re excepting all the cool stuff they read about. It’s definitely out there.
But we need film mixers that are more creative with the format. On my own 7.x.4 system I do get a great immersive experience, and also objects in the room on occasion. I’ve also spent a great deal of time on my system even before adding tops, so bed layer set up should be taken into account too.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For what it’s worth I also find Dolby recommends putting the rear surround speakers too far apart leaving a big hole directly behind you. I preferred THX’s old recommendations of only 1 speaker in the back, and I believe audio research supported this configuration. But Dolby’s formats dominate the industry, so it is what it is.

Iirc, the study found that a rear center speaker caused issues with the front center speaker, and didn’t image as well. I’d have to look it back up. IMO Dolby’s guides are just guides. They’re designed for a one size fits all, but not all rooms and speakers and listeners are the same. For instance, if your rear surrounds are leaving a gap then move them back together and see if that helps. Nothing wrong with experimenting. Sometimes that’s the best part!

 

[Pogre]

Actually there are hundreds of movies with Atmos tracks.
But you are right that sometimes they don’t get used much. This really depends on who did the mix. Not all tracks are created equal.
Adjusting expectations is also a good point. Many people never heard an Atmos system until they installed one in their own homes. Then what? They’re excepting all the cool stuff they read about. It’s definitely out there.
But we need film mixers that are more creative with the format. On my own 7.x.4 system I do get a great immersive experience, and also objects in the room on occasion. I’ve also spent a great deal of time on my system even before adding tops, so bed layer set up should be taken into account too.

Yeah, I should add that I don't have atmos channels and no real experience with it so there's that. I know there are some great mixes out there that utilize the channels well, but can be hit and miss. A little bit of research can point you toward the good ones tho.

So... depending on what you use as a source I would keep expectations in check and look for material known to utilize all those channels effectively before passing final judgement.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I know there are some great mixes out there that utilize the channels well, but can be hit and miss so a little bit of research can point you toward the good ones.

So... depending on what you use as a source I would keep expectations in check and look for material known to utilize all those channels effectively before passing final judgement.

Yep exactly this.
One big problem for him, is I believe the tops are installed so moving them in might be a problem.

 

[SFS]

How far apart are your top speakers, and what are the room dimensions? There has been a lot of discussion on height/top speaker placement in reference to Dolby’s guides. This one is the worst offender.As you found out, following this guides recommendation to place tops as far apart as the mains doesn’t always work. Especially with a low ceiling height.

This is included in a more granular guide.

The recommendation is to place the tops .5 to .7 the width of your widest speakers. The main thing is being centered over the listener. That will give much better phantom imaging and image placement overhead, and into the room.
I don’t think your issue is 7.1.4 vs 7.1.2.
7.1.4 IS better than 7.12. In fact, Ime even 5.1.4 is better than 7.1.2.
9.1.6 won’t fix your problem in the way you think. Some tracks only place height effects in the middles, and some don’t use them at all. I can’t remember off hand which do what. You’ll also need a processor/AVR that can do .6. Unless of course you have one.
Also not all soundtracks are great. But that’s not new lol.

Yup, I used the first guide. Angle between front & back row is 90 degrees. Problem is they are already installed. Frankly I’m not sure it’s worth the expensive effort to relocate. And in my set up, 7.1.2 is far more convincing, not even close. My advice to people is set up 6 (not 4) just in case, then see what works best in practice.

Since I have 6 ceiling speakers I might as well give it a try at this point. BUT BE WARNED: most atmos tracks are locked at 7.1.4. Even if your processor can handle 13-15ch, the middle atmos row will get zero sound. Monolith’s HTP-1 is the only reasonably priced processor (that I am aware of) that some reports say can “add” the middle row to a locked atmos track, but in another forum, users reported this is not correct.

 

[SFS]

Iirc, the study found that a rear center speaker caused issues with the front center speaker, and didn’t image as well. I’d have to look it back up. IMO Dolby’s guides are just guides. They’re designed for a one size fits all, but not all rooms and speakers and listeners are the same. For instance, if your rear surrounds are leaving a gap then move them back together and see if that helps. Nothing wrong with experimenting. Sometimes that’s the best part!

Yup, I read the same thing. I believe those studies also said there was no need for center channel (if your are sitting in the sweet spot, I assume).

Yup, I push my surround backs closer together than Dolby recommends.

 

[SFS]

Yeah, I should add that I don't have atmos channels and no real experience with it so there's that. I know there are some great mixes out there that utilize the channels well, but can be hit and miss. A little bit of research can point you toward the good ones tho.

So... depending on what you use as a source I would keep expectations in check and look for material known to utilize all those channels effectively before passing final judgement.

I’ve tried a bunch of stuff. Best for testing i found is Dolby’s atmos demo bluray. I prefer the rain ON me (7.1.2) vs AROUND ME (7.1.4)… but it’s worse than that… in 7.1.4 it is vague and undefined, as if I don’t even know where the rain is. As for the overhead chopper demo, yes, in 7.1.4 it swirls around me as I suppose it should, but there is a big gap as it passes from 1 speaker to the next. I prefer the chopper seamlessly moving side to side above me in 7.1.2, even if it’s not around me.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear I have bad placement for my room. Thanks for the suggestions. I really appreciate it.

 

[Mark E. Long]

Don’t have atmos yet but from reading on this forum and a couple others could it be the ceiling height in these rooms that are limiting the use of these programs in people’s setups for good results. I still use the older Yamaha front heights and rears setup at 8 feet high and use the older Dolby pro 2x and the 3-d mode and I get all kinds of overhead content in all movies. I know it’s a different mix altogether but my stuff is high up and has room to mix and blend in the room too . Seems to me you definitely need at least 8 to 10 foot of height to get a good results from these programs. I’ve herd good setups in big theaters it’s really impressive but look at the room height you have too . I am interested in this in my room also and have a big room and a vaulted ceiling that is angled to the center of the room where the sweet spot is . Seems to me this stuff works better with a high ceiling in a home setup .

 

[Auditor55]

I had the exact same experience.

I followed Dolby’s recommended speaker placement for in-ceiling speakers. After a lot of disappointed, I am left with the impression that the speakers are way too far apart (and/or my ceilings are too low - 7.5ft). When using 7.1.4, I get zero imaging and a big empty space above my head. I never hear anything directly above me.

So I gave up on 7.1.4, and moved to 7.1.2. But I put the middle row ceiling speakers closer together than Dolby recommends. Finally I hear things above me. To be clear, I do not hear objects in a 3D bubble above/around me, but I do hear rain falling on my head and a plane/spaceship/etc directly above me. I figure I’m getting something like Auro’s VOG effect.

Even though I much prefer 7.1.2 over 7.1.4, I still want the full 3D atmos effect. I’m hoping 7.1.6 will finally solve the problem, but most atmos tracks are locked at 7.1.4 even if you have a 15ch processor.

Anyway, that’s my experience. Anyone else have same experience or any suggestions?

Keep in mind, a lot of this stuff is gimmicky, concocted to generate sales of new equipment. For example, 7.1.6 that you mentioned, what is that for? To my knowledge, there isn't a single studio mixing 7.1.6 content for home release and you probably will never see it. Home theaters are "small rooms" studios mix content differently for home theaters than they do large commercial theaters because they know you can only fit some many speakers into a small room and they know that not that many speakers are needed in a small room to get the same effect as a large theatre. With that being said, 7.1. 4 might have been overkill in your room. Truth be told, Dolby Atmos is very difficult to do right in the typical home, most can't really implement it per Dolby's recommendation, overhead speakers firing down at the listeners in a small room. If you cut holes in your ceiling for speakers and it doesn't produce the results you expected, in the case with you, as you discovered, they might be too far apart, you are pretty much screwed unless you cut more holes in the ceiling to get it right.

I've noticed when some enthusiast set up a Dolby Atmos system in the home, some complain about not hearing enough information and/or sound or effects coming from above them. The sound mixers are not doing enough with the overhead sounds, so then they are disappointed. However, in real life, not that many sounds are heard about us, 90 percent of sounds come from side us and upward, not directly above our domes, that is why from a technical and practical perspective, Auro-3D systems made more sense for the home than does Dolby Atmos, because the Auro approach was to mix from sides and then upward towards the ceiling and not from directly above us, although in Auro-3D they did offer the single overheard speaker referred to as the VOG. So it's really good thing that they don't place that many sound directly above us because they could become gimmicky, unrealistic and destracting. Instead of immersing you into sound, thereby enhancing the movie experience, its taking you out of it.

 

[Auditor55]

I’ve tried a bunch of stuff. Best for testing i found is Dolby’s atmos demo bluray. I prefer the rain ON me (7.1.2) vs AROUND ME (7.1.4)… but it’s worse than that… in 7.1.4 it is vague and undefined, as if I don’t even know where the rain is. As for the overhead chopper demo, yes, in 7.1.4 it swirls around me as I suppose it should, but there is a big gap as it passes from 1 speaker to the next. I prefer the chopper seamlessly moving side to side above me in 7.1.2, even if it’s not around me.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear I have bad placement for my room. Thanks for the suggestions. I really appreciate it.

Please observe, the next time you go outside of your home or in the city and a helicopter is flying above and compare it with some of the sounds mixes and see if the recorded sound is realistic.

 

[SFS]

Keep in mind, a lot of this stuff is gimmicky, concocted to generate sales of new equipment. For example, 7.1.6 that you mentioned, what is that for? To my knowledge, there isn't a single studio mixing 7.1.6 content for home release and you probably will never see it. Home theaters are "small rooms" studios mix content differently for home theaters than they do large commercial theaters because they know you can only fit some many speakers into a small room and they know that not that many speakers are needed in a small room to get the same effect as a large theatre. With that being said, 7.1. 4 might have been overkill in your room. Truth be told, Dolby Atmos is very difficult to do right in the typical home, most can't really implement it per Dolby's recommendation, overhead speakers firing down at the listeners in a small room. If you cut holes in your ceiling for speakers and it doesn't produce the results you expected, in the case with you, as you discovered, they might be too far apart, you are pretty much screwed unless you cut more holes in the ceiling to get it right.

I've noticed when some enthusiast set up a Dolby Atmos system in the home, some complain about not hearing enough information and/or sound or effects coming from above them. The sound mixers are not doing enough with the overhead sounds, so then they are disappointed. However, in real life, not that many sounds are heard about us, 90 percent of sounds come from side us and upward, not directly above our domes, that is why from a technical and practical perspective, Auro-3D systems made more sense for the home than does Dolby Atmos, because the Auro approach was to mix from sides and then upward towards the ceiling and not from directly above us, although in Auro-3D they did offer the single overheard speaker referred to as the VOG. So it's really good thing that they don't place that many sound directly above us because they could become gimmicky, unrealistic and destracting. Instead of immersing you into sound, thereby enhancing the movie experience, its taking you out of it.

you raise an excellent point. If the point is NOT to hear anything directly above you, then maybe I was expecting too much of atmos. Some people claim those 4 atmos speakers can pin point an object anywhere in 3D space. I took that literally. I expected to hear rain pouring down on me, not around me. And I expected to hear a bullet whiz past my ear, not just hear the bullet jump from one overhead speaker to another.

Alternatively, if people actually mean atmos gives them an elevated surround sound, and it’s more-or-less localized at the speaker’s location (similar to some ground level surround sound effects) then I was expecting way too much.

So I guess the question is: does anyone with a good atmos setup actually hear objects moving in 3D? NOT from speaker to speaker, but floating anywhere in 3D, defying the actual speaker location (like a singer’s voice imaged between well placed stereo speakers). Do your atmos speakers literally track an object in locations floating in air?

Main L&R speakers can struggle to image a sound within its soundstage if they are not perfectly positioned, so is it realistic to think atmos speakers can? Are some people exaggerating their atmos experience, while others are expecting way too much? Just a thought.