Why am I so underwhelmed with Atmos/DTS-X?

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I am going to AirPlay the YouTube version and see what happens with DSU and DTSnx.
 
S

SFS

Enthusiast
Interesting. Is that Adam Sandler?

Can I ask what your speakers are, and how they’re setup? Or pics even? You know, a picture and a thousand words lol.
1) uncut gems: yes, Adam sandler

2) YouTube video. I downloaded to USB, but it’s not in atmos when I play it through my bluray player. Not sure if I did some wrong. Assistance would be appreciated. I’d loved to test out this demo.

3) I’m using B&W 800 series speakers and 2 SVS subs. Ceiling speakers are paradigm.

set up:
1) l&r mains are 60 degrees apart from MLP
2) angle between front and rear ceiling rows is 90 degrees from MLP, as per Dolby recommendations. I’m guessing this is way too far apart. Left ceiling speakers roughly in line with L main. Right ceiling speakers roughly in line with R main. Ceiling 7.5ft… maybe too low for proper atmos.
3) middle row ceiling speakers are directly above me, but the L & R are closer together than the other ceiling speakers. This eliminated the “gap” above my head. I distinctly hear objects above me now (in 7.1.2)
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
1) uncut gems: yes, Adam sandler

2) YouTube video. I downloaded to USB, but it’s not in atmos when I play it through my bluray player. Not sure if I did some wrong. Assistance would be appreciated. I’d loved to test out this demo.

3) I’m using B&W 800 series speakers and 2 SVS subs. Ceiling speakers are paradigm.

set up:
1) l&r mains are 60 degrees apart from MLP
2) angle between front and rear ceiling rows is 90 degrees from MLP, as per Dolby recommendations. I’m guessing this is way too far apart. Left ceiling speakers roughly in line with L main. Right ceiling speakers roughly in line with R main. Ceiling 7.5ft… maybe too low for proper atmos.
3) middle row ceiling speakers are directly above me, but the L & R are closer together than the other ceiling speakers. This eliminated the “gap” above my head. I distinctly hear objects above me now (in 7.1.2)
Ok let me see what I can figure out. I’m assuming the player(which one is it?) is set to bitstream and you’ve hit the movie button to select the right sound mode. Then verified with the info button and the OSD? Short of that, I’ll have to look at the YouTube channel.

Actually now that I think about it I just pasted the YT address. Hold on…
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
1) uncut gems: yes, Adam sandler

2) YouTube video. I downloaded to USB, but it’s not in atmos when I play it through my bluray player. Not sure if I did some wrong. Assistance would be appreciated. I’d loved to test out this demo.

3) I’m using B&W 800 series speakers and 2 SVS subs. Ceiling speakers are paradigm.

set up:
1) l&r mains are 60 degrees apart from MLP
2) angle between front and rear ceiling rows is 90 degrees from MLP, as per Dolby recommendations. I’m guessing this is way too far apart. Left ceiling speakers roughly in line with L main. Right ceiling speakers roughly in line with R main. Ceiling 7.5ft… maybe too low for proper atmos.
3) middle row ceiling speakers are directly above me, but the L & R are closer together than the other ceiling speakers. This eliminated the “gap” above my head. I distinctly hear objects above me now (in 7.1.2)
I would agree that the ceiling height in your room is too low and that even following the guidelines it’s too much gap. Unfortunately they’re already installed as I really think I tighter square would benefit you. Also, are your mains toed in at all?
 
S

SFS

Enthusiast
I would agree that the ceiling height in your room is too low and that even following the guidelines it’s too much gap. Unfortunately they’re already installed as I really think I tighter square would benefit you. Also, are your mains toed in at all?
1) yes, mains are toed in

3) I’m thinking of replacing the ceiling speakers with angled ones to “close the gap”, but other forums said that won’t fix the problem. I hope you see my dilemma and why I prefer 7.1.2.

2) I did download the file from the google docs page to USB (it was in the info section on the YouTube video you sent). My Sony bluray player sees the content as 5.1. I believe my player is already set to bitstream since my atmos disc play just fine, unless there is a different setting for USB? I tried plugging USB directly into AVR.. file format not recognized.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
1) yes, mains are toed in

3) I’m thinking of replacing the ceiling speakers with angled ones to “close the gap”, but other forums said that won’t fix the problem. I hope you see my dilemma and why I prefer 7.1.2.

2) I did download the file from the google docs page to USB (it was in the info section on the YouTube video you sent). My Sony bluray player sees the content as 5.1. I believe my player is already set to bitstream since my atmos disc play just fine, unless there is a different setting for USB? I tried plugging USB directly into AVR.. file format not recognized.
Interesting. I haven’t downloaded it yet so I don’t know. I won’t have a chance until this evening. Could be the BD player. What model is it? I have a Sony x700 and it reads all of my Atmos downloads fine.
Can your AVR read the files?
 
S

SFS

Enthusiast
Interesting. I haven’t downloaded it yet so I don’t know. I won’t have a chance until this evening. Could be the BD player. What model is it? I have a Sony x700 and it reads all of my Atmos downloads fine.
Can your AVR read the files?
Same bluray: Sony UBP-X700. It reads the file as Dolby 5.1, not atmos. Bluray discs play atmos just fine so I assume my settings are fine. Let me know if it works for you.

AVR cannot read the file
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Same bluray: Sony UBP-X700. It reads the file as Dolby 5.1, not atmos. Bluray discs play atmos just fine so I assume my settings are fine. Let me know if it works for you.

AVR cannot read the file
Will do. I’ll recheck my settings too.
I’m really hoping you can get this sorted.
 
S

SFS

Enthusiast
Will do. I’ll recheck my settings too.
I’m really hoping you can get this sorted.
I figured out problem in Settings:

Audio Settings > Digital Music Enhancer > set to OFF (I had it ON before)

will demo more tonight. THANKS!
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
No. He doesn’t have a point. He never does, and just likes to whine about stuff that HE doesn’t want to spend money on, and is too lazy to do the work on. Nobody cares because it’s the same ol drivel…

Anyways. To your question. Yes. I have heard things IN my room and have found that many mixes are very immersive overall. I actually recently watched Avengers End Game, again. I wasn’t listening for in room objects specifically, but there were sounds from all directions and I never felt distracted. In fact some things came flying past and around me were startling, but in a good way, connecting me to the action. Not the best mix ever, but very very good.
One of my favorite objects comes from Hunger Games catching fire(iirc). After katness is finished singing a song, a bird flys off screen to the right rear corner of the room. I absolutely swear i can feel it fly past. In fact the first time I saw that, I tried to dodge it lol.
This isn’t just due to the four height speakers as you said though. It’s a function of phantom imaging between the bed layer and the height layer. I believe you’re right though about imaging being difficult. I think it works better in bigger rooms for multiple seats especially, since in a smaller room with a listener to the side, or closer to a particular speaker the image would collapse to that from pressident effect.
To your last point, it’s a good question, and I don’t think has a simple answer. Expectations vs reality is complicated. Made more so by odd rooms not built for installing home theaters, mixes that are not very good, bad speaker placement and not knowing what to expect. I’ll admit that when I first tried out Atmos in MY room, I was a little disappointed, as I had very high expectations. But I made few tweaks, and found some better titles, and I found out that I do love Atmos. When it’s done right. So please don’t mistake me for a fanboi lol. But I’m am an advocate.
This guy is angry and takes this stuff too personal.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
ATMOS is not a game changer for me either despite the hype. I notice it but it doesnt blow me away like the original 5.1 did. Then 6.1 came out, then 7.1 but meh, it wasnt "the" big deal anymore. Same goes for ATMOS. Im still gob smacked when I watch U571 in 5.1. To me, no movie has come close to the realism that U571 offers when the sub is creaking and the rivots are popping.
Yep.
 
S

SFS

Enthusiast
Those videos are really helpful. Initial impressions is my 7.1.4 setup is better than I thought but I noticed these issues:

1) - the top front speakers are quieter than my top rear even though the levels were confirmed with a sound pressure meter. This makes me think it might be worth replacing the front row with ANGLED in ceiling speakers. Just a thought.

2) the imaging completely breaks down when he moves his voice to the center of the room (2:55 of Demo 2). I cannot tell where his voice is. This is what I mean when I say my system cannot image in 3D. My setup can place sounds around me in the lower layer OR top layer, but not at any point in between the layers… it becomes a blurry mess. That why I called my Atmos experience an “elevated” surround sound rather than true 3D sound.
Do you have same issue? If so, maybe I over estimated what Atmos can do?
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
you raise an excellent point. If the point is NOT to hear anything directly above you, then maybe I was expecting too much of atmos. Some people claim those 4 atmos speakers can pin point an object anywhere in 3D space. I took that literally. I expected to hear rain pouring down on me, not around me. And I expected to hear a bullet whiz past my ear, not just hear the bullet jump from one overhead speaker to another.

Alternatively, if people actually mean atmos gives them an elevated surround sound, and it’s more-or-less localized at the speaker’s location (similar to some ground level surround sound effects) then I was expecting way too much.

So I guess the question is: does anyone with a good atmos setup actually hear objects moving in 3D? NOT from speaker to speaker, but floating anywhere in 3D, defying the actual speaker location (like a singer’s voice imaged between well placed stereo speakers). Do your atmos speakers literally track an object in locations floating in air?

Main L&R speakers can struggle to image a sound within its soundstage if they are not perfectly positioned, so is it realistic to think atmos speakers can? Are some people exaggerating their atmos experience, while others are expecting way too much? Just a thought.
Overcoming Problems with Bad Immersive Audio Mixes

Watch this video. If you would like, you fast forward to the 17 minutes where the position of speakers is addressed.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Those videos are really helpful. Initial impressions is my 7.1.4 setup is better than I thought but I noticed these issues:

1) - the top front speakers are quieter than my top rear even though the levels were confirmed with a sound pressure meter. This makes me think it might be worth replacing the front row with ANGLED in ceiling speakers. Just a thought.

2) the imaging completely breaks down when he moves his voice to the center of the room (2:55 of Demo 2). I cannot tell where his voice is. This is what I mean when I say my system cannot image in 3D. My setup can place sounds around me in the lower layer OR top layer, but not at any point in between the layers… it becomes a blurry mess. That why I called my Atmos experience an “elevated” surround sound rather than true 3D sound.
Do you have same issue? If so, maybe I over estimated what Atmos can do?
Please listen to the experts. What you are observing as flaws with the home Atmos system are not figments of your imagination.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Those videos are really helpful. Initial impressions is my 7.1.4 setup is better than I thought but I noticed these issues:

1) - the top front speakers are quieter than my top rear even though the levels were confirmed with a sound pressure meter. This makes me think it might be worth replacing the front row with ANGLED in ceiling speakers. Just a thought.

2) the imaging completely breaks down when he moves his voice to the center of the room (2:55 of Demo 2). I cannot tell where his voice is. This is what I mean when I say my system cannot image in 3D. My setup can place sounds around me in the lower layer OR top layer, but not at any point in between the layers… it becomes a blurry mess. That why I called my Atmos experience an “elevated” surround sound rather than true 3D sound.
Do you have same issue? If so, maybe I over estimated what Atmos can do?
When you say demo 2, I’m assuming it’s the simple one with only his voice? On my system his voice is very distinct in location at all of the call out points. Even the front wide position images a voice exactly between them. Even though my sides are past 90° a little bit.
I’m wondering if you have a speaker out of phase or something. On mine, when his voice is in the center, it’s totally locked in my CC. You might try bumping the trims on your tops a little too.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Please listen to the experts. What you are observing as flaws with the home Atmos system are not figments of your imagination.
You mean like you?
Btw. A video about “bad mixes” means what for the format as a whole?
Again. What is your experience level? Or are you gonna sidestep? Again…

Also. Pretty sure the guy in your video is from Auro. Wow. Great case you’ve made.
 
S

SFS

Enthusiast
When you say demo 2, I’m assuming it’s the simple one with only his voice? On my system his voice is very distinct in location at all of the call out points. Even the front wide position images a voice exactly between them. Even though my sides are past 90° a little bit.
I’m wondering if you have a speaker out of phase or something. On mine, when his voice is in the center, it’s totally locked in my CC. You might try bumping the trims on your tops a little too.
Locked in your CC? You mean center channel? Sorry, I think you misunderstood.

Check out min 2:55 of the demo, when his voice is in the center of the room, basically at the main listen position, in between the top and lower layers. The sound should not be located in your center speaker. I assume his voice should be literally next you. Instead, for me, his voice just sounds like it is everywhere and nowhere at once. That’s not what I expected from 3D sound.

The good news is I DO get sound located directly above me. That makes me think there is a problem with a track on Dolby’s demo disc, I think it is called “Amazed”. During the rain, I hear nothing directly above my head and it drives me nuts!!! Now I’m thinking, did Dolby play 4 DIFFERENT rain tracks for each atmos speaker? No, they wouldn’t be that dumb, would they? If the 4 top speakers are playing 4 different (not identical) rain sounds, then of course there would be no sound directly above, right? Man, either I’m way wrong, or that demo track is crap.
 
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