Which sub is better?

[MacManNM]

I can see where offensive sarcasm would sway a reader.

No my friend, facts. I’m not being offensive, just truthful. The only agenda I have is getting people the absolute best sound for their money. If aesthetics are more important than sound, then so be it, there are people who care about that. Myself, and several others on this site, are simply trying to give people advice on getting the best sonic quality and the most out of their dollar. I wish I had this type of information available to me when I started out in audio.

 

[Peter Marcks]

John, part of the problem is that there is no such thing as "best" when it comes to audio. Essentially preferences dictate.

However, I think it is great to give opinions on what qualities stand out in different products placed within a consumer's intended price range. The more exposure to quality products for the price, the better for the consumer.

Sincerely,

 

[Tomorrow]

No my friend, facts. I’m not being offensive, just truthful. The only agenda I have is getting people the absolute best sound for their money. If aesthetics are more important than sound, then so be it, there are people who care about that. Myself, and several others on this site, are simply trying to give people advice on getting the best sonic quality and the most out of their dollar. I wish I had this type of information available to me when I started out in audio.

Mac, I laud the effort but not the execution nor the presentation.

Let me remind you about the original question herein. RJC asked if anyone had an opinion on which was better, the KEF PSW2000 or the Outlaw LFM-2. I take it from an earlier post by you in this thread that you have not listened to those subs, nor have you heard an Hsu STF-1. (If that's not true, please advise me.) If you're goal is to give people good "advice on getting the best sonic quality and the most out of their dollar" then you should be able to back it up with measured data and extensive research on many, many subs. Otherwise you're just another voice with your own biases. There is nothing wrong with that. But just recognize it for what it is.

 

[Peter Marcks]

Gentlemen, the interesting thing here is that the specifications on the BIC Acoustech H-100 are much more similar to the Cadence Xsub model than to the STF-1. The H-100 is a ported subwoofer with dimensions 17"x15"x18.25" (HxWxD), rated frequency response of 24Hz (-3db), includes a 12" driver, 150 watt RMS (500 watt peak) amplifier, and sells online in the low $200's. I would need to speak further with Dr. Hsu to find out more about how these models compare, but they do seem to be closer to the realm of ultra high value ultra low cost subwoofers, even more than STF-1 (which was designed with a different compromise in mind, mainly minimized size and footprint and flat response down to ~28Hz in room at a more modest SPL level, with very high bandwith uniformity in it's operating range).

Sincerely,

 

[MacManNM]

John, part of the problem is that there is no such thing as "best" when it comes to audio. Essentially preferences dictate.

However, I think it is great to give opinions on what qualities stand out in different products placed within a consumer's intended price range. The more exposure to quality products for the price, the better for the consumer.

Sincerely,

I agree 100% I know the people here. Most of us don't have an unlimited budget. I am simply trying to give good advice to people that have budget restraints. Bang for the buck.

 

[Peter Marcks]

Definitely good advice, I agree John! There is also quite a bit of money to save when spending in the low $200's versus > $300.

Sincerely,

 

[MacManNM]

Mac, I laud the effort but not the execution nor the presentation.

Let me remind you about the original question herein. RJC asked if anyone had an opinion on which was better, the KEF PSW2000 or the Outlaw LFM-2. I take it from an earlier post by you in this thread that you have not listened to those subs, nor have you heard an Hsu STF-1. (If that's not true, please advise me.) If you're goal is to give people good "advice on getting the best sonic quality and the most out of their dollar" then you should be able to back it up with measured data and extensive research on many, many subs. Otherwise you're just another voice with your own biases. There is nothing wrong with that. But just recognize it for what it is.

I have listened to the HSU STF-1; quite frankly it is a VERY good music sub, much more so than the SVS PB10-ISD. I believe it is one of the best (8”) music subs on the market. Times have changed, music isn’t as important to people as it used to be. All in all, I believe that an 8” unit lacks the capacity to perform adequately in both theaters (pun intended). I have no bias, I own none of the above, nor do I have the ability to purchase any of the above units to do a comparison. I am simply stating an opinion, somewhat educated, of these units. I would gladly make time to perform measurements should the opportunity arise.

 

[Peter Marcks]

John, what is adequate to one person is inadequate to another person. Some people will say that a single 10" or 12" subwoofer is not enough for them. Room size, placement options, and preferred listening levels will be very important in determining what is enough.

That said, it is true that there is only so much air that will be moved when designing a subwoofer to meet a certain enclosure size with a certain driver and amplifier size. Alas, tradeoff is the key, and all designers are forced to make tradeoffs in one way or another.

Cheers

 

[MacManNM]

Definitely good advice, I agree John! There is also quite a bit of money to save when spending in the low $200's versus > $300.

Sincerely,

Right.


IMO the STF-2 @ $400.00 should be what you’re talking about. The STF-1 shouldn't be in this discussion because it can't compete.

 

[Peter Marcks]

I am sure these 8" subwoofers could compete well in bass per given floorspace It was actually Tom Nousaine who challenged subwoofer manufacturers many years ago to provide more bass for less floorspace, and hence the birth of the TN series in the mid 90's.

However, the 8" subwoofers would be at a disadvantage in terms of maximum output and absolute low end frequency response due primarily to size and displacement.

Anyway, if discussion is about subwoofers in the low $200 range, then none of the STF are applicable. Sometimes very good values can be found on the used market too, but it is not very common to see the more expensive used subwoofers dip into the low $200 price range discussed here.

P.S. Thank you for the kind words about the STF-1, John! I am glad that you liked the sound quality.

Sincerely,

 

[MacManNM]

John, what is adequate to one person is inadequate to another person. Some people will say that a single 10" or 12" subwoofer is not enough for them. Room size, placement options, and preferred listening levels will be very important in determining what is enough.

Absolutely

That said, it is true that there is only so much air that will be moved when designing a subwoofer to meet a certain enclosure size with a certain driver and amplifier size. Alas, tradeoff is the key, and all designers are forced to make tradeoffs in one way or another.

Cheers

Alas, this is my point.

 

[craigsub]

John - The subwoofer that the Cadence reminds me most of is the Hsu STF-1. It hits harder than an 8 inch subwoofer has the right to, and is another rare bargain.

I reviewed one last year - and it was fantastic.

Peter - Interested in a Cadence/STF-1 Shootout ?

 

[Spiffyfast]

John - The subwoofer that the Cadence reminds me most of is the Hsu STF-1. It hits harder than an 8 inch subwoofer has the right to, and is another rare bargain.

I reviewed one last year - and it was fantastic.

Peter - Interested in a Cadence/STF-1 Shootout ?

Isn't the STF-1 an 8" sub? If the Cadence sounds like the HSU, that has got to be one heck of an 8" driver

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Isn't the STF-1 an 8" sub? If the Cadence sounds like the HSU, that has got to be one heck of an 8" driver

It is. You can have spectacular 8" subs. If you've never heard the Def Tech Super Cube II, you have to demo one. It's amazing.

Peter - Interested in a Cadence/STF-1 Shootout ?

You're going to do that anyhow, right?

I think another great comparo would be the $219 XSUB vs $245 JBL E250P vs $258 Acoustech H-100 vs $195 BIC V1220 (all shipped prices - best I could find on the net as of today). These are all entry level 12" subs.

The STF-1 is, by all means an outstanding little sub - but it's a bit higher priced than these offerings at $315. I'm pretty sure the Acoustech sub was partially engineered for BIC by Dr. Hsu, but I could be wrong. There's a lot of buzz about that sub on the net. From what I've read, the H-100 out of the box is less than impressive. But with some break-in time, some say it's an eye/ear opening experience (like the Cadence IMO).

 

[craigsub]

Isn't the STF-1 an 8" sub? If the Cadence sounds like the HSU, that has got to be one heck of an 8" driver

I put the STF-1 into a friend's new basement "theater/sports bar" last February, so it is no longer here to do a direct comparison with the Cadence.

"Reminds me of" and "performs the same" definitely are two different criteria.

I DO still have the SVS PB10-ISD for comparison purposes. Of course, with shipping, two of the X-subs are about $500 flat.

The area of the X-sub that is not impressive (yet) is the upper bass, which is somewhat boomy. However, I have only had the subwoofer for one day, and want to try playing with placement ...

 

[MacManNM]

I am sure these 8" subwoofers could compete well in bass per given floorspace It was actually Tom Nousaine who challenged subwoofer manufacturers many years ago to provide more bass for less floorspace, and hence the birth of the TN series in the mid 90's.

However, the 8" subwoofers would be at a disadvantage in terms of maximum output and absolute low end frequency response due primarily to size and displacement.

Anyway, if discussion is about subwoofers in the low $200 range, then none of the STF are applicable. Sometimes very good values can be found on the used market too, but it is not very common to see the more expensive used subwoofers dip into the low $200 price range discussed here.

P.S. Thank you for the kind words about the STF-1, John! I am glad that you liked the sound quality.

Sincerely,

Good points, all of them.
As soon as I find a pair of vintage Infinity RS-4b's for my jazz room I will be buying 2 of the STF-1's, as I stated before it is an awesome music sub.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

The area of the X-sub that is not impressive (yet) is the upper bass, which is somewhat boomy. However, I have only had the subwoofer for one day, and want to try playing with placement ...

I've found the best setting on the XSUB at 40Hz - even 60Hz isn't bad, with the two gain controls a little past halfway. I think the bass is much more pleasing than setting it at 120Hz, and letting the receiver try to handle the bass management. I have the receivers crossover set at 60Hz, and all speakers set to "small." My issue with this sub (and probably most) is that I don't have a corner to place it, other than a "partial corner" with one 12" wall coming out. I've considered putting it down in the crawl space under the family room, in the corner. It would be hectic to adjust the thing, though, when need be.