Which of these two HDMI cables would you choose and why?

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#61
Yep. Hybrid fiber is not cheap. That was one of the comments I made after reviewing Ruipro's 2m cable. For that length, the cost was just too steep. Fortunately I was able to keep the cables ;) Do you have pull strings in your conduit by chance?
Yes, I put pull strings in to pull the cables. There is going to be an awful pot of cable in that theater all said and done. The studio mechanical chase will also be the hub for IT internet, TV and FM. I have tech tubes from that space going all over the house. This is my first experience with Tech Tubes.
 
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Otto Plyot

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#62
Tech Tube. I had to click on the link but it looks like smurf tube. I used something similar in my conduit runs in our previous house. Flexible and worked well. The only issue I had, and it was a small one, is that sometimes the cable would hang a bit on the corrugation but a gentle tug on the pull string fixed that. Fishing without a pull string is a bit more challenging but not impossible unless you have lots of wire to pull.
 
highfigh

highfigh

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#63
Yes, I put pull strings in to pull the cables. There is going to be an awful pot of cable in that theater all said and done. The studio mechanical chase will also be the hub for IT internet, TV and FM. I have tech tubes from that space going all over the house. This is my first experience with Tech Tubes.
Pull cords can be added later- the common method is to tie a wad of paper towel to the string at one end and connect a canister vacuum cleaner to the other end of the tube- once the vacuum cleaner is providing suction, make the ball small enough that it will pass through the tubing easily, but provide some resistance to the vacuum as you feed the string in. When it reaches the vacuum hose, you'll hear a difference in the sound. Tie the string to something and shut off the vacuum.

Make sure the tubing is large enough for the cabling- electricians use 65% as the maximum for filling the cross-sectional area of their conduit or flexible tubing because the cable will bind at each bend. Typically, the conduit or tubing should have no more than two 90 degree bends- any more and it should have a feed elbow, to make feeding the cables easier but that implies that the elbow should be accessible after the walls have been closed, in case something needs to be added or replaced. If needed, water-based wire lube can be used to prevent pulling the cables too tightly.

BTW- make sure the pull cords are relatively heavy, especially if the tubing has the slit- thin string can slip past the slit and cause drag or worse. Carlon sells this kind of tubing without a slit and it can be bought at Home Depot. If you need to feed a lot of cables in one tube, it's available up to 2-1/2" diameter, with 2" being more easy to find. The orange tubing is used for most Low Voltage installation, but the blue is the same, just used by electricians for their wiring.

If you can't find the Carlon and you're near an ADI distributor, I can arrange for you to buy it in whatever size you need.
 
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Otto Plyot

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#64
I tried the vacuum thing and it didn't work for me. Probably because of the bends in the tubing. I found it much easier to install a pull string (sufficient strength) in the beginning and just tie it off in the j-box until needed. 1.5" to 2.0" conduit would be the minimum, but I would think ahead on what you want to do and install the appropriate diameter. Better to go a bit bigger than smaller.
 
ellisr63

ellisr63

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#65
I would run a piece of string in the walls, and then test both cables before running in the walls.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#66
I would run a piece of string in the walls, and then test both cables before running in the walls.
I have a huge conduit in the walls from the AV rack to the TV. Running cables is going to be no trouble at all. This is not an issue for me. The mantra round here is "right by design."
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#67
Well look what I've found now!

So that is designed to prevent stress from the HDMI port powering the cable. It will also solve the problem if there is not enough power from the port, which happens not infrequently.
The above unit and the 12 Meter Ruipro cable arrived yesterday.

The specs on the that voltage inserter above are 1000 ma at 5 volts. That should be plenty and nothing stressed. I think that is preferable to drawing power from an HDMI that it is not designed to provide. I think this is the robust solution.

The way things are going we are at least a couple of months away from any testing, probably nearer three from studio completion. We shall all have to wait patiently for results.
 
O

Otto Plyot

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#68
The mantra I've always followed is CONDUIT! CONDUIT! CONDUIT! ;)

You could always lay the cable on the floor and test it thoroughly to see if there are any issues with the power inverter beforehand. I personally think you don't need it because there shouldn't be any issues being as folks have been using active cables for a long time without issues, but your setup appears to be more demanding than most so it certainly can't hurt to check it out.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#69
The mantra I've always followed is CONDUIT! CONDUIT! CONDUIT! ;)

You could always lay the cable on the floor and test it thoroughly to see if there are any issues with the power inverter beforehand. I personally think you don't need it because there shouldn't be any issues being as folks have been using active cables for a long time without issues, but your setup appears to be more demanding than most so it certainly can't hurt to check it out.
I will leave it in the box until the install. You really can't be certain of what you say. One of the most frequent reports of failure that get posted is HDMI board failure. One thing is that we don't routinely ask if they are using a powered active cable. Even if we did we would no know if a powered HDMI cable was the cause or a contributing cause.

We did have a thread a few years ago that was highly suspicious for Redmere cables causing HDMI failure and some receiver manufacturers pointed out that powering from an HDMI port was not something they sanctioned or approved.

My opinion is that HDMI boards are relatively fragile and a point of failure more often then they should be. Powering from an HDMI board has no official sanction. So much so that powered cables can not be certified. So my argument is why risk it, especially when designing to avoid doing so is only a fraction of the cost of an HDMI board. Lastly the spec for a standard HDMI board is only 5 ma. So that is a power draw of 25 mw. That is minute and I bet those cables draw more than that. They don't specify their power draw which they should and its irresponsible not to.
 
O

Otto Plyot

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#70
I hear what you're saying. Just because I haven't seen a whole lot HDMI board failures attributed to active cables doesn't mean it can't happen. The Ruipro4k cables power consumption is 250mW maximum and is listed in their specs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#71
I hear what you're saying. Just because I haven't seen a whole lot HDMI board failures attributed to active cables doesn't mean it can't happen. The Ruipro4k cables power consumption is 250mW maximum and is listed in their specs.
That is my point. That is 50 ma, when the spec for the draw is 5 ma. So that is 10 times higher then anything countenanced and not something a designer has to allow for.

The inserter in the other hand can deliver 5000mw.

What I have found in electronic design is that over rating everything and providing a big margin is the best and surest way to enormously enhance reliability.
So the more headroom the better and the higher the margin between average power draw and maximum the better.

This is the Henry Ford principle. The Ford Model T was the first really reliable car. Before the first one rolled out, Henry Ford examined a cam shaft, and told the engineers to shave down the lobes a bit. So this reduced valve openings and reduced the maximum power of the engine. The reason was to reduce engine stress and increase reliability.

I strongly recommend any active cable not be powered from the port, until such time ports are designed and specked to provide such power with significant margin.
 
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Otto Plyot

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#72
There's a lot that needs to be corrected with HDMI, from chip/board design to the actual option sets but I fear that isn't going to happen. You have some very valid points so I think I'll check in with my Ruipro contact and see what they have to say.
 
highfigh

highfigh

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#73
What I have found in electronic design is that over rating everything and providing a big margin is the best and surest way to enormously enhance reliability.

I strongly recommend any active cable not be powered from the port, until such time ports are designed and specked to provide such power with significant margin.
The first point is great, but it's a sure way to exceed the budget.

Point 2- don't hold your breath.
 
O

Otto Plyot

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#74
5v HDMI ports are designed, in most cases, to deliver at least 50mA of power to a connected device, such as an active cable from what I've been able to find, and what was confirmed by Ruipro. They will be getting more specific information back to me next week. The problem appears to be that some HDMI ports may be unable to deliver the minimum 50mA because of a poorly designed port or cheap construction, so the problem may be more on the HDMI port side than the active cable connected. Guess it doesn't really matter which side the problem is on. Hopefully I'll be able to get a little more clarity next week. Voltage inserters are definitely useful but for me, I'd need at least 3 or 4 for my system, a way to power them (which means extra cables and adapters behind my HTS),and with only a 1-year warranty on some of them, I could be replacing an inserter every couple of years.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#75
5v HDMI ports are designed, in most cases, to deliver at least 50mA of power to a connected device, such as an active cable from what I've been able to find, and what was confirmed by Ruipro. They will be getting more specific information back to me next week. The problem appears to be that some HDMI ports may be unable to deliver the minimum 50mA because of a poorly designed port or cheap construction, so the problem may be more on the HDMI port side than the active cable connected. Guess it doesn't really matter which side the problem is on. Hopefully I'll be able to get a little more clarity next week. Voltage inserters are definitely useful but for me, I'd need at least 3 or 4 for my system, a way to power them (which means extra cables and adapters behind my HTS),and with only a 1-year warranty on some of them, I could be replacing an inserter every couple of years.
Well I think this all comes down to people that are non technical having trouble looking at the consequences of their actions.

This is a receiver HDMI board.



That is not even a 4 K board. That does not look a good idea to start drawing power from a board like that.

Next the pre pro I have ordered has three HDMI outputs and therefore someone could potentially draw 750 mw form the HDMI board, which is 150 ma.

I doubt that is a good idea. I would say an HDMI board is much more likely to blow than and HDMI board. They are also only the fraction of the cost of an HDMI board and much more easily replaced.

Finally the specs of these cables are vague. Is that 250 mw peak power or average power. Since it is a processing chip it is highly unlikely the power draw is constant.

So until there are world recognized standards and ways of specifying these cables and HDMI boards and boards, my advice to members asking about any type of active HDMI cable is to ALWAYS use a voltage inserter. That seems to me the most sensible and wisest approach.
 
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Otto Plyot

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#76
I'm not really arguing your point. They make sense to me. I'm just trying to get a good understanding of the pros and cons of active with and without a voltage inserter. I'm going to continue to talk to Ruipro and another major a/v installer that I know of.

I believe the 250mA is maximum power draw but that's something to ask (is there a +/- range?). This is all very interesting so thanks for your input. I'm assuming that your setup is for professional recording/editing as well as "just" a home theater system ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#77
I'm not really arguing your point. They make sense to me. I'm just trying to get a good understanding of the pros and cons of active with and without a voltage inserter. I'm going to continue to talk to Ruipro and another major a/v installer that I know of.

I believe the 250 mw is maximum power draw but that's something to ask (is there a +/- range?). This is all very interesting so thanks for your input. I'm assuming that your setup is for professional recording/editing as well as "just" a home theater system ;)
Correct.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

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#78
Well I think this all comes down to people that are non technical having trouble looking at the consequences of their actions.

This is a receiver HDMI board.



That is not even a 4 K board. That does not look a good idea to start drawing power from a board like that.

Next the pre pro I have ordered has three HDMI outputs and therefore someone could potentially draw 750 mw form the HDMI board, which is 150 ma.

I doubt that is a good idea. I would say an HDMI board is much more likely to blow than and HDMI board. They are also only the fraction of the cost of an HDMI board and much more easily replaced.

Finally the specs of these cables are vague. Is that 250 ma peak power or average power. Since it is a processing chip it is highly unlikely the power draw is constant.

So until there are world recognized standards and ways of specifying these cables and HDMI boards and boards, my advice to members asking about any type of active HDMI cable is to ALWAYS use a voltage inserter. That seems to me the most sensible and wisest approach.
How could you possibly know if it can handle that amount of current without seeing the underside?

Also, you're using mA when you refer to power- wrong.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

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#79
How could you possibly know if it can handle that amount of current without seeing the underside?

Also, you're using mA when you refer to power- wrong.
Yes, I made a typo once. 50 ma at 5 volts is 250 mw. That does not change the point that it is likely not a good idea to draw that from an HDMI port
 
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