Which of these two HDMI cables would you choose and why?

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Otto Plyot

Junior Audioholic
I thought I had mentioned a voltage inserter but I may have been thinking of another forum, with similar questions that I posted in. Sorry about that. In theory, the voltage inserter should work but I don't know if there will be an issue with the active hybrid fiber cables or not. I guess all you can do is connect it all before installation and then thoroughly test it out. However, with the use of conduit, as you well know, that makes for fool proof cabling.

The only thing that makes me a tad bit nervous about the voltage inserter (and I've read some very favorable commets from actual users and not just the mfr's marketing) is having a direct power connection via the adapter to the HDMI input. Power spikes/surges etc would make me probably over cautious but I guess it wouldn't be any different than a spike originating at a source and then travelling down the HDMI cable.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I thought I had mentioned a voltage inserter but I may have been thinking of another forum, with similar questions that I posted in. Sorry about that. In theory, the voltage inserter should work but I don't know if there will be an issue with the active hybrid fiber cables or not. I guess all you can do is connect it all before installation and then thoroughly test it out. However, with the use of conduit, as you well know, that makes for fool proof cabling.

The only thing that makes me a tad bit nervous about the voltage inserter (and I've read some very favorable commets from actual users and not just the mfr's marketing) is having a direct power connection via the adapter to the HDMI input. Power spikes/surges etc would make me probably over cautious but I guess it wouldn't be any different than a spike originating at a source and then travelling down the HDMI cable.
I use whole house surge protection and all equipment except the power amps are run from three UPS units. In extreme conditions with severe lightening storms I go off grid. In my home on Benedict Lake I had a lovely vintage generator rig powered by a Wisconsin V4 industrial engine. In the new place I have to settle for a modern horror. I hope I have selected the best of the bunch though, it will be a Cummins unit. In the end there is no fool proof protection from a bad lightening strike, you can only reduce risk.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Well look what I've found now!

So that is designed to prevent stress from the HDMI port powering the cable. It will also solve the problem if there is not enough power from the port, which happens not infrequently.
Those are also available in the form of IR insertion for remote controls, but the more robust remotes use RF to prevent the need for a path from remote to IR receivers.

At this point, 4K can be delivered via short HDMI cables using Copper wire, longer cables using fiber, some HDMI extenders (slight compression is needed for 4/4/4 color and full bucket of crap for HDMI. Companies like Just Add Power have HD over IP but they really got in to make video matrix equipment.

In late 2006, I was asked if I would be using HDMI in a system and I answered "Not until they fix the problems or I have no choice". Thirteen years later and I haven't had a choice in over five years. The problems are different, but we still have them.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I agree with the conduit and have preached that for years. Don't run any AV cable where you can't get at it without using conduit. No exceptions!

For the rest of your post I remain the skeptic pessimist.

I would say that in reports of AV failures, HDMI board related failures are top of the list. HDMI boards just seem to have a fragility about them as a group. Having worked with electronics over the years, I can confirm that current and that generates heat in devices kills. So I'm not really OK with drawing more current from particularly touchy boards, when it is not sanctioned.

So for $20 bucks I'm going to power my active cables from the external device I sighted above. To me this is a no brainer.
It would be so easy to use the voltage from the HDMI board to activate a tap from the power supply.......

To make it worse, the voltage on an HDMI has a ridiculously small window of pass/fail- roughly .3 Volts and below the threshold, it doesn't work.
 
O

Otto Plyot

Junior Audioholic
4k HDR (HDMI 2.0) can indeed be delivered by passive copper wire, with no issues up to about 20' - 25' max. Even 4k HDR (HDMI 2.1) can be delivered via passive copper wire up to 9' max. So I think passive vs active cabling won't be that much of an issue with the folks who don't have runs longer than about 25' (me for one). It's you long run folks that have to figure out the ideal situation for your systems. I've always liked the idea of a voltage inserter (even with my concerns) but have never had a need to use one because active cables have always worked for me. I have been testing the Ruipro4k cables for quite some time now (thank you Ruipro) at the 6' length and they work great, even though I don't need an active system for my HTS's. Hopefully I'll get a chance to test their 8k cables soon once they are available. The discussion about voltages has brought up some questions that I think I'll ask Ruipro. This has been an enlightening discussion. And yes, HDMI in general is a frickin' mess but it's what we're stuck with.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
Before the release of the 4K products, the manufacturers should have got together with the HDMI Consortium to figure out a more solid and secure HDMI connector which would have solved the problems we have been experiencing up to now with the current connectors and boards.
They should have designed new connecting hardware similar to the XLR system which uses silver contacts and sturdy secure connections. Maybe it's not too late to consider implementing such a project for the 8K products which haven't been released yet. Then, if that project came to fruition, a transition could be implemented for the newer 4K products with adapting connectors for the older stuff.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
4k HDR (HDMI 2.0) can indeed be delivered by passive copper wire, with no issues up to about 20' - 25' max. Even 4k HDR (HDMI 2.1) can be delivered via passive copper wire up to 9' max. So I think passive vs active cabling won't be that much of an issue with the folks who don't have runs longer than about 25' (me for one). It's you long run folks that have to figure out the ideal situation for your systems. I've always liked the idea of a voltage inserter (even with my concerns) but have never had a need to use one because active cables have always worked for me. I have been testing the Ruipro4k cables for quite some time now (thank you Ruipro) at the 6' length and they work great, even though I don't need an active system for my HTS's. Hopefully I'll get a chance to test their 8k cables soon once they are available. The discussion about voltages has brought up some questions that I think I'll ask Ruipro. This has been an enlightening discussion. And yes, HDMI in general is a frickin' mess but it's what we're stuck with.
Other devices and formats have failed- why won't this one? It never should have lasted this long. Multiple channels are sent over fiber for many applications- an AVR needs one fiber connection for each device and if it can up-convert, great. If not, let the TV do that. No need for port savers, stiff cables, failures and with the new fiber, it's much easier to re-terminate in the field.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Before the release of the 4K products, the manufacturers should have got together with the HDMI group to figure out a more solid and secure HDMI connector which would have solved the problems we have been experiencing up to now with the current connectors and boards.
They should have designed new connecting hardware similar to the XLR system which uses silver contacts and sturdy secure connections. Maybe it's not too late to consider implementing such a project for the 8K products which haven't been released yet. Then, if that project came to fruition, a transition could be implemented for the newer 4K products with adapting connectors for the older stuff.
They don't care!

There's no requirement for XLR to have silver contacts. The problem is that Copper wire can't pass the frequencies needed for 4K with full color and HDR & HDCP 2.2- that makes it equally worthless for 8K. They knew this would happen, but they didn't do anything about it- they want someone else to do the research and find solutions to the problems they (the HDMI Consortium) created.

The only thing that will get them to drop this crap is if people stop buying the new technology and step off of the bleeding edge.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Before the release of the 4K products, the manufacturers should have got together with the HDMI group to figure out a more solid and secure HDMI connector which would have solved the problems we have been experiencing up to now with the current connectors and boards.
They should have designed new connecting hardware similar to the XLR system which uses silver contacts and sturdy secure connections. Maybe it's not too late to consider implementing such a project for the 8K products which haven't been released yet. Then, if that project came to fruition, a transition could be implemented for the newer 4K products with adapting connectors for the older stuff.
May not be that simple. When you start moving very high frequencies down metal, very strange unexpected things happen. This is particularly true of larger pieces of metal where eddy currents and internal inductance can totally stop it working. Funnily enough small is the order of the day. One of my sons is an expert in this and lectures about it. He has developed novel software to greatly speed up the modelling of these strange effects. He actually had to teach himself theoretical atomic physics to understand a lot of this. On a lot of circuits these days, like those in your smart phone you literally have to work at the atomic level. He tells me that just a small seemingly insignificant change in the spacing of a component on a board or change in an IC chip can make all the difference between working and not working.

That is why working with light is so much better and reliable. As speeds go up we have to ditch electrons buzzing up and down wires and go to photons.

As I have said in this thread as these speeds go up and even what we have now using metal is rapidly becoming untenable. We will have more and more scenarios were a cable will work the device A and B but not C for no readily explainable reason. So yes we need change, but we need to be transmitting photons and not electrons down our tubes. I can tell you larger connectors are not the answer. Connectors receiving and transmitting photon packets are the way forward from here.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
There's no requirement for XLR to have silver contacts.
But, to my knowledge, some of the genuine Neutrik products do and with the advantage that silver oxide doesn't impair electric conductivity.
 
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Otto Plyot

Junior Audioholic
That's the point of hybrid fiber. The copper wiring is "dedicated" to just ARC, HDCP, and EDID while the glass fiber cores handle the video, etc.

A secure physical connection to the HDMI input shouldn't be an issue either as long as the connector is designed well and the cable is not so thick as to put undue pressure on the input.

I don't like HDMI. Never have, never will. But we are in the minority. The majority of the population will continue to purchase the shiny new toys and put up with its "idiosyncrasies" because they don't know any better. That's who the device mfrs are targeting and why HDMI is so entrenched with the mfrs that it will not go away for a very long time, if ever. They're too deep into their investments to change. I think hybrid fiber is a step in the right direction but it's still HDMI :(
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
Before the release of the 4K products, the manufacturers should have got together with the HDMI Consortium to figure out a more solid and secure HDMI connector which would have solved the problems we have been experiencing up to now with the current connectors and boards.
They should have designed new connecting hardware similar to the XLR system which uses silver contacts and sturdy secure connections. Maybe it's not too late to consider implementing such a project for the 8K products which haven't been released yet. Then, if that project came to fruition, a transition could be implemented for the newer 4K products with adapting connectors for the older stuff.
They should have done it when HDMI was designed and this connector flaw has been known many years, sadly. With the requirements of higher quality cable, aka heavier and stiffer more or less, this continues to be a problem with manufactures scimping on the receptors.

On my 8 year Panasonic plasma screen I still have the HDMI cable hanging on a strip to lessen the load for just this reason. Whether or not this helped I do not know, but probably did not hurt. For the receiver I've done the same.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
But, to my knowledge, some of the genuine Neutrik products do and with the advantage that silver oxide doesn't impair electric conductivity.
AFAIK, almost any oxide will impair electrical conductivity and I know that Silver has been used for a long time but IMO, gold or Nickel are better choices because of their better resistance to oxidation. Silver, being softer, is easier to clean by removing and reinserting the plug.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
That's the point of hybrid fiber. The copper wiring is "dedicated" to just ARC, HDCP, and EDID while the glass fiber cores handle the video, etc.

A secure physical connection to the HDMI input shouldn't be an issue either as long as the connector is designed well and the cable is not so thick as to put undue pressure on the input.

I don't like HDMI. Never have, never will. But we are in the minority. The majority of the population will continue to purchase the shiny new toys and put up with its "idiosyncrasies" because they don't know any better. That's who the device mfrs are targeting and why HDMI is so entrenched with the mfrs that it will not go away for a very long time, if ever. They're too deep into their investments to change. I think hybrid fiber is a step in the right direction but it's still HDMI :(
If you look at most devices that use HDMI, they have a single screw directly above the HDMI port, which was originally supposed to be used for a plug retainer that prevented stress on the POS end of their crappy HDMI cables........ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But nobody used them, so the parts are no longer available. They could have come up with a round computer-type connector with a spring clip, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, that would have worked too well.

Ask me if I care about how deep they are in their investment, considering the fact that it has wasted my time and cost me money on occasion. I'm working on a system now that I had originally installed at the homeowner's previous house and when I connected the XBox, I got no video when I used the same cable. Different TV, but same brand. The signal from all of the other devices passed through the AVR, but not the XBox.

All of the people doing training for HDMI that I have heard say that the TV and source device manufacturers were delighted when the HDMI cable came into being because they could install one connector for each input and be done. Less parts cost less money and the circuitry is academic. I have always had a big problem with the structural integrity of the HDMI cable end and when they can't make the cables flexible, that will always be a problem.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
AFAIK, almost any oxide will impair electrical conductivity and I know that Silver has been used for a long time but IMO, gold or Nickel are better choices because of their better resistance to oxidation. Silver, being softer, is easier to clean by removing and reinserting the plug.
You are right! Silver oxide but mostly sulfide (tarnish) is a conductive silver compound. Compared with pure silver conductivity is reduced.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
If you look at most devices that use HDMI, they have a single screw directly above the HDMI port, which was originally supposed to be used for a plug retainer that prevented stress on the POS end of their crappy HDMI cables........ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some manufacturers, one of them Marantz have been using a screw just above the HDMI ports, as on my SR5010, but I assume that it's used to hold the HDMI board in the chassis, and not for securing a HDMI cable.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Some manufacturers, one of them Marantz have been using a screw just above the HDMI ports, as on my SR5010, but I assume that it's used to hold the HDMI board in the chassis, and not for securing a HDMI cable.
The screw is on everything that has an HDMI port- almost an admission that the hardware is fragile.
 
O

Otto Plyot

Junior Audioholic
That's interesting about the screw on HDMI inputs. You peaked my curiosity so I checked all three tv's. An old Samsung, a slightly newer Samsung, and a new LG OLED. None of the HDMI inputs have screws above the inputs. They must be secured to the boards inside and then the chassis fitted over them. I can only check one of my two Yamaha receiver's HDMI input but it too doesn't have a screw above the HDMI input. When testing the Ruipro4k cables the one thing I noticed is the slim factor of the connector end. It fits nice and snug into the HDMI input either horizontally or vertically. The cable is very thin so there is no strain whatsoever on the HDMI input. When I was using the BJC Premium cables, they fit snugly as well but they were bulkier than the hybrid fiber cables but I was able to connect them without bending or forcing the connection. But I do agree that the HDMI connectors are an issue.

As to the metal material used I've always felt that the best connection would be like to like metal. Gold/silver connectors are fine but wouldn't they have to be same for the HDMI inputs as well? Oxidation is certainly a concern if you're in a humid environment or plugging/unplugging (damaging the metal connectors) but is it really that much of a concern for most users? I've had HDMI cable connections on some of my devices for years and never had an issue. I do have modest HTS's, and not a high end system like TLS Guy has above, so maybe it becomes more of an issue with the really high end equipment?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
So I have just been round to the house and pulled the four cables for the rear backs. They are biamped (not passive biamp. While there I passed a snake along the HDMI conduit and then pulled a string to measure it. I need 36 ft. So I need a 12 meter Ruipro cable. Cost $150. Oh well, I have spent almost $700 on speaker cable and I think I will need more. Its not "funny" wire either. The costs really start to add up in a bigger space.
 
O

Otto Plyot

Junior Audioholic
Yep. Hybrid fiber is not cheap. That was one of the comments I made after reviewing Ruipro's 2m cable. For that length, the cost was just too steep. Fortunately I was able to keep the cables ;) Do you have pull strings in your conduit by chance?
 

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