When do you need more amplifier?

T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
Which Dyn? Regardless, if rated 6 ohms nominal, it may dip below that in certain ranges. I agree with Pogre, for speakers rated 6 hm, 200 W max, 86 dB/2.83V/m at 12' the 705 is at it's limit for sure. I would say for compressed music you are fine but for classical and jazz or anything that has 10 dB or more dynamic peaks that last longer than 20 ms, the 705 will likely produce audible distortions at you listening level. If you want SQ to improve, try sitting closer and turn the volume down to say 70-75 dB average spl.
Running the special 40’s and a SVS PB1000 off the NAD’s multi room out crossed over at 60hz. Volume on the SVS is also turned down very low, I think it’s much more efficient than my NAD/Dyn combo.

Also my NAD when playing loud or uncomfortable the volume is at 12 o’clock with loudness off and bass/treble at 0.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
We don't recommend more power or bigger amps very often on this site, but there are 4 of us in this thread who suspect you could use a little more oomph. Just something to consider...
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for digging that info up.
In that case, the power output was reduced from the measured 190 W to 125 W to 8 ohms when soft clipping was engaged.
If we assume the drop in power from 190 to 125 W was linear, 125 W becomes about two thirds of 190. It may not be linear, but if we assume it is, in the smaller NAD 705, power with soft clipping is 40 W, then without soft clipping it becomes 60 W.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
To put a price on all this, I did a quick search for what I consider good quality, affordable 2-channel external amps in the range of 110-150 wpc (continuous power at 8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <1% THD, unless otherwise noted) and came up with these:

USED at Audiogon
B&K ST2140, 140 wpc (measured at 1 kHz),$350
Parasound Halo A23 Stereo Power Amplifier, 125 wpc, $588
Audio by Van Alstine Synergy 300 Stereo Power Amplifier, 150 wpc, $1096

NEW
Parasound NewClassic 2125v2 Power Amplifier, 150 wpc, $599 at Audio Advisor
Marantz MM7025 2-Ch, 140 wpc, $599 at Accesories4less
Audio by Van Alstine Vision SET 120, 120 wpc, $899
Odyssey Khartago Stereo Amp, 110 wpc, $995
Can't help but feel OP might consider Outlaw Model 2200 Monoblocks, too, if truly interested in adding Amplification... maybe a little more juice than necessary, but cost and performance is spot on...
$399 each, or $719 for 2!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Running the special 40’s and a SVS PB1000 off the NAD’s multi room out crossed over at 60hz. Volume on the SVS is also turned down very low, I think it’s much more efficient than my NAD/Dyn combo.

Also my NAD when playing loud or uncomfortable the volume is at 12 o’clock with loudness off and bass/treble at 0.
Wow, I would buy them just for the good look. So according to Sterephile's measurements, impedance seems okay but sensitivity sucks a little more than the specified 86 dB/2.83V/1m.

The Special Forty's voltage sensitivity is specified as 86dB(B)/2.83V/m; my estimate was a little lower, at 84.4dB/2.83V/m.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-special-forty-loudspeaker-measurements#WBQg2G6SCZ84rXdI.99
If the NAD 705 is in top shape, yes you can get by listening to spl in the 80 dB range. By the way, by 80 dB range did you mean low, mid or high 80's. For power requirement, it makes a lot difference because for every 3 dB increase in sound pressure level, you need 2X the amplifier output power. It also depends on the kind of music you listen to. For compressed music the average spl will be higher but peaks are lower, uncompressed music such as classical live recordings, average may be low but peaks could be high. Low power NAD amps tend to do better with uncompressed music with lots of dynamics, relative to many other amps rated for similarly low, or a little higher outputs, because of their better than average dynamic output capability.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Ha, now that I think about it... we're really gunning for getting our Friendly OP in some more Hot Water! :eek:
Go out and buy amplification for the speakers you're selling!!! :p

Needless to say, I agree that he will benefit from this in the long run, too... especially if his next pair don't have a much higher sensitivity, or that he does not change from the current NAD.

*shrugs

This is a hard one, considering we love to spend other peoples money, here!!! :cool:
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
iPhone app, volume at 12 o’clock at sitting position, Metallica And Justice for All!!!

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Can't help but feel OP might consider Outlaw Model 2200 Monoblocks, too, if truly interested in adding Amplification... maybe a little more juice than necessary, but cost and performance is spot on...
$399 each, or $719 for 2!
Sure. Why not? Two for $800 719. It was only an arbitrary choice to limit the power in my search to 150 W. And if the NAD 705's power without soft clipping is about 60 wpc, then going up to 200 wpc raises power by 3.3-fold.

We all agree that increasing power by 10-fold will produce significant results with power hungry speakers. But a 10-fold increase in amplifier power is not often realistic or affordable. So I look for half of a 10-fold increase. The square root of 10 is 3.17, or roughly a 3-fold increase. By this thinking, anything less than a ~3-fold increase is not worth the cost.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
Ha, now that I think about it... we're really gunning for getting our Friendly OP in some more Hot Water! :eek:
Go out and buy amplification for the speakers you're selling!!! :p

Needless to say, I agree that he will benefit from this in the long run, too... especially if his next pair don't have a much higher sensitivity, or that he does not change from the current NAD.

*shrugs

This is a hard one, considering we love to spend other peoples money, here!!! :cool:
The speakers are absolutely listed for sale, that said we’ll see what happens
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for digging that info up.
If we assume the drop in power from 190 to 125 W was linear, 125 W becomes about two thirds of 190. It may not be linear, but if we assume it is, in the smaller NAD 705, power with soft clipping is 40 W, then without soft clipping it becomes 60 W.
Perhaps, though I think NAD's rated output are based on soft clipping "Off". It seems to me one has to consider the lesser of two evils. Soft clipping supposedly round off the edges to reduce harshness from distortions, but the absolute distortion % may actually increase so it it a case of quantify (higher THD in %) vs qaulity (perception of less harshness)? I don't know the answer.. I do have a NAD amp for my desktop and I just checked the selector and found it is in the "off" position. Since I bought it new and never touched it, so "off" must be the factory default position.

Edit: @Swerd , the manual suggested the following:

Soft Clipping may simply be left ON at all times to reduce the likelihood of audible distortion from excessive volume settings. However, for critical listening and to preserve optimum dynamics, you may wish to defeat it by setting this switch to “OFF” position.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Perhaps, though I think NAD's rated output are based on soft clipping "Off". It seems to me one has to consider the lesser of two evils. Soft clipping supposedly round off the edges to reduce harshness from distortions, but the absolute distortion % may actually increase so it it a case of quantify (higher THD in %) vs qaulity (perception of less harshness)? I don't know the answer.. I do have a NAD amp for my desktop and I just checked the selector and found it is in the "off" position. Since I bought it new and never touched it, so "off" must be the factory default position.
Interesting.

Even more reason to have enough power so that one never approaches driving an amp into clipping.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Ha, now that I think about it... we're really gunning for getting our Friendly OP in some more Hot Water! :eek:
Go out and buy amplification for the speakers you're selling!!! :p

Needless to say, I agree that he will benefit from this in the long run, too... especially if his next pair don't have a much higher sensitivity, or that he does not change from the current NAD.

*shrugs

This is a hard one, considering we love to spend other peoples money, here!!! :cool:
I wonder what would happen if wives got tipped off and started to post here..:p
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
On SoundStageNetwork, Dynaudio Special Forty speakers come in with sensitivity at 83.6 dB averaged from 300 to 3,000 Hz. Their impedance low is roughly 5 or 6 ohms, similar to what Dynaudio claims. These Dynaudios are indeed power-hungry speakers.
1564348757031.png


Frequency response curve at 0°, 15 and 30° off-axis isn't bad. Unless that business between 500 and 800 Hz is audible noise.
1564348864770.png
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The calculator I used, linked, does allow for room gain, if you read the fine print.

You don't have to convince me about the audibility of "low" distortion as I am a believer too. Just don't forget what the OP himself has told us, and I repeat (okay for the last time:D): "I listen at about 12’ and in the 80 decibel range but if I want to go any higher in volume they start to get uncomfortable to listen to, I’m guessing this is distortion or clipping from the amplifier, would that be correct? "



May be to you, but 75 dB is hardly whisper to me. It is loud enough that it is the level I listen to most of the time, and I am sure I have hearing loss.:D Anyway, that's just my opinion based on the information provided, not facts..

Besides, I would have recommended 80 dB, he's already listening in the 80 range after all so yes he won't likely be happy with 75. As I mentioned, I tried to be more conservative, since he indicated in the 80 dB range he's near the limit in terms "comfort..".



You seem to keep missing the fact that I wanted to allow for the often recommended 20 dB dynamic peaks.:) IOW, if the average is 85, and the OP is already listening at the 80 range, then he may be getting audible distortions during the odd peaks above 95 dB and the occasional peaks potentially up to or even exceed 105 dB. NAD's soft clipping may soften the harshness, but not eliminate it entirely. And I guess I have to emphasis that the specified dynamic rating is based on IHF, its stated clearly in the Owner's manual. That's why I mentioned earlier that my comments were based on peaks longer than 20 ms. It is debatable whether 20 ms is long enough for it to be realistically useful, I don't know the answer but here's a link for some interesting reading:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=-5UPyE6dcWgC&pg=PA306&lpg=PA306&dq=is+ihf+standard's+20+ms+long+enough+for+music&source=bl&ots=wxImqnyIe_&sig=ACfU3U2RLTrjPwDIq9cQ8F9WH0iYr1K-6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_3uyGq9jjAhUTG80KHWovAM4Q6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=is ihf standard's 20 ms long enough for music&f=false

I used to enter 2 speakers too for stereo and 7 for 7.1 etc, until I was corrected, by @yepimonfire if I remember right, or someone else if not him, that by THX standard, the 85 dB average, 105 dB peak thing was based on "each speaker", i.e. one at a time. We don't have to agree on the merit obviously as it is just a standard. In fact, personally I would agree with you on this.

The bottom line is, the OP told us at higher volume he's getting uncomfortable......., and I would concede that it may not be from the amplifier, though it seems likely it is, because he's only getting uncomfortable if he go higher in volume. Another thing to consider is, the NAD 705, unless refurbished, would be 27 years old, so it may be getting tired and is telling the OP its deserves an early retirement.
I used the same calculator.

85 is definitely louder and IMO, 105/speaker is unnecessary.

I don't listen as loudly as I had, but I listen more intently if it's not just background. At that point, loud isn't needed.

Soft clipping is basically a way of causing the power supply to sag a bit on hard demand and it softens the edges of clipping before it becomes square wave. McIntosh uses it, too- or, has.

As far as being 27 years old, the Sony ES integrated I have is from the mid-'80s and it still sounds really good- I still think the acoustics of the room are in play, here.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
On SoundStageNetwork, Dynaudio Special Forty speakers come in with sensitivity at 83.6 dB averaged from 300 to 3,000 Hz. Their impedance low is roughly 5 or 6 ohms, similar to what Dynaudio claims. These Dynaudios are indeed power-hungry speakers.
View attachment 30299

Frequency response curve at 0°, 15 and 30° off-axis isn't bad. Unless that business between 500 and 800 Hz is audible noise.
View attachment 30300
Noise, from what?

I would guess that the stuff at ~550-750 is due to the placement in the room unless they were actually tested in a quasi-anechioc space.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
Wasn’t sure if this should go in speaker or amplifier section so I put it here. I’ve heard the description that a speaker is not fatiguing to listen to but I think that might be more descriptive of the speaker/amplifier combo and listening distance/volume? My Dynaudios are currently for sale because my wife said I spent too much money but listening to them with my 40 watt NAD may not be the best idea. I listen at about 12’ and in the 80 decibel range but if I want to go any higher in volume they start to get uncomfortable to listen to, I’m guessing this is distortion or clipping from the amplifier, would that be correct?

The Dyn’s are rated at 6ohm and 200 watt max power at 86db/m

The NAD is rated 40wpc at 8ohms with dynamic power ratings in 8/4/2 ohms.

If I’m listening at 12’, without being a math whiz I think I can get into trouble real quick with this amp.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
To answer the question - probably when you feel the need to ask it. :)
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
On SoundStageNetwork, Dynaudio Special Forty speakers come in with sensitivity at 83.6 dB averaged from 300 to 3,000 Hz. Their impedance low is roughly 5 or 6 ohms, similar to what Dynaudio claims. These Dynaudios are indeed power-hungry speakers.
View attachment 30299

Frequency response curve at 0°, 15 and 30° off-axis isn't bad. Unless that business between 500 and 800 Hz is audible noise.
View attachment 30300
Off axis the Dyn’s are WAY better than the Focals... until you get 90° off axis and near the speakers, you can hear the boxes. It’s just way too much driver for the box. That said it’s really not an issue in any reasonable listening position. I’ve also read that the port can be noisy but I haven’t stuck my head between the speaker in the wall yet to see if it’s an issue. If I had more money than brains I would contact Salk and see if they wanted to build some custom boxes for my speakers.
 
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