What are You Really Paying for with High-End Audio Gear?

[sterling shoote]

So don't leave us all hanging, where did the guy with the high end guns come in the competition.

I wish I could remember. Interestingly enough, the tournament was in Oakridge, TN and I came to it with 2 other friends, all of us at the time resided in Kentucky and all of us were shooters on the KY State Rifle Team. Each of us won each of three relays of the divisions we shot in: I shot in Match Rifle Division, one friend shot in Service Rifle Division, and the other in Any/Any Division. So we won all 9 matches plus the aggregate of those matches for a total of 12 awards. I was ecstatic because my scores brought my Long Range average up to 98%, which earned me a High Master Classification and an NRA American High Power Rifleman Award signed by Charlton Heston who at the time was President of the NRA. At any rate, the guy who "showed me how to do it" was really nice and sincere but like all guys just getting into it his perceptions about what it takes to win were misplaced. My perceptions about it all at that time were almost as misplaced, since I did not have a full grasp of everything important to good shooting. Two years later, however, I was invited by the United States Army Marksmanship Unit to assist in delivery of the Squad Designated Marksman Course at Army Posts in the Midwest and Southeast. They trained me to instruct from their curriculum and it was that curriculum which got me up to speed on my own marksmanship. Fun times, for sure. These days my one good eye is no longer good enough for great scores so my competitive shooting is behind me and my wife likes that because shooting every day is really expensive.

 

[mono-bloc]

Thanks for the reply. It reads like you have had a long history of gun ownership and control. Our gun laws are total different to yours It's virtually impossible to obtain a gun license, let alone a firearm, or for that matter ammunition. Owning and using a firearm is limited in Australia to people who have a genuine reason and self-protection does not constitute a genuine reason to possess, own or use a firearm. Secondly, the Australian system requires both the licensing of individual shooters and the registration of each firearm. .Storage and housing of Gun's must be in a registered gun safe. A log or history of usage, of each firearm must also be kept, and kept up to date. Failure to do so, means a confiscation order can apply and complete lose of all firearms, ammo, and license, can happen without notice or appeal

 

[sterling shoote]

Thanks for the reply. It reads like you have had a long history of gun ownership and control. Our gun laws are total different to yours It's virtually impossible to obtain a gun license, let alone a firearm, or for that matter ammunition. Owning and using a firearm is limited in Australia to people who have a genuine reason and self-protection does not constitute a genuine reason to possess, own or use a firearm. Secondly, the Australian system requires both the licensing of individual shooters and the registration of each firearm. .Storage and housing of Gun's must be in a registered gun safe. A log or history of usage, of each firearm must also be kept, and kept up to date. Failure to do so, means a confiscation order can apply and complete lose of all firearms, ammo, and license, can happen without notice or appeal

Back at the beginning of the 1900's United States President Theodore Roosevelt signed into law a requirement that the United States Army train interested civilians how to shoot. President Roosevelt believed it was a good idea to have a nation of marksmen should the Country be drawn into war. After all, he knew the Army could not turn out marksman in just a few weeks of boot camp, since great marksmanship takes several years to master. At any rate, that Army marksmanship training program still exists today. And it's where I got my start in the shooting sports. I'm appreciative of that and of my freedom to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution, while vigilant to defend my God given Freedoms from those that oppose them.

 

[mono-bloc]

Army marksmanship training program still exists today.

From what I read and hear on the news channels gun control in America is totally out of control. And nothing is done to change that. What with government or constitutional legislation written into your laws. Together with your National Rifle Association who would seem to have some sort of control over government officials, and can dictate / block any new reforms that are proposed. While it's very easy for an outsider to criticize another countries gun laws. Drastic changes in your gun laws need to happen before any changes can have any effect. We in Australia have had some bad experiences with regard to people going to of control with firearms, Port Arthur, was a good example of that . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia) The result was complete scrapping of gun laws and the hole thing re'written, with a gun armistice country wide bought into action, Thousands of firearms where surrendered and subsequent gun surrenders are on going.

 

[lovinthehd]

From what I read and hear on the news channels gun control in America is totally out of control. And nothing is done to change that. What with government or constitutional legislation written into your laws. Together with your National Rifle Association who would seem to have some sort of control over government officials, and can dictate / block any new reforms that are proposed. While it's very easy for an outsider to criticize another countries gun laws. Drastic changes in your gun laws need to happen before any changes can have any effect. We in Australia have had some bad experiences with regard to people going to of control with firearms, Port Arthur, was a good example of that . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia) The result was complete scrapping of gun laws and the hole thing re'written, with a gun armistice country wide bought into action, Thousands of firearms where surrendered and subsequent gun surrenders are on going.

Any stats on what's gone on since the change? I'd hope we have the will someday to get around the gun nuts who want an arsenal at home just in case of some sort of coup, but I worry more about the gun nuts being behind the coup....

 

[sterling shoote]

Thanks for the reply. It reads like you have had a long history of gun ownership and control. Our gun laws are total different to yours It's virtually impossible to obtain a gun license, let alone a firearm, or for that matter ammunition. Owning and using a firearm is limited in Australia to people who have a genuine reason and self-protection does not constitute a genuine reason to possess, own or use a firearm. Secondly, the Australian system requires both the licensing of individual shooters and the registration of each firearm. .Storage and housing of Gun's must be in a registered gun safe. A log or history of usage, of each firearm must also be kept, and kept up to date. Failure to do so, means a confiscation order can apply and complete lose of all firearms, ammo, and license, can happen without notice or appeal

From what I read and hear on the news channels gun control in America is totally out of control. And nothing is done to change that. What with government or constitutional legislation written into your laws. Together with your National Rifle Association who would seem to have some sort of control over government officials, and can dictate / block any new reforms that are proposed. While it's very easy for an outsider to criticize another countries gun laws. Drastic changes in your gun laws need to happen before any changes can have any effect. We in Australia have had some bad experiences with regard to people going to of control with firearms, Port Arthur, was a good example of that . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia) The result was complete scrapping of gun laws and the hole thing re'written, with a gun armistice country wide bought into action, Thousands of firearms where surrendered and subsequent gun surrenders are on going.

I don't have a clue about what you have read about gun control in the United States. The US does not have a gun problem it has a problem with a violent devolving population. Government cannot legislate a remedy, only prayer and revival can do that.

 

[lhunka]

In a perfect world, DBT tests should provide consistent results, with statistical significance. But I've never seen such a result in a listeners' test of audio products. It doesn't mean it can't be done – only that it's harder to do than anyone has tried, so far.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there often is.

DBT has been done extensively by Floyd Toole and Shawn Olive at both the Canada Research Council and Harmon
Some info is posted on You Tube or better yet buy Toole's book. Although the focus is on loudspeakers it may be applicable on listening in general. Some interesting take aways. Most listeners are capable of making good subjective assessments. Most listeners prefer neutral accurate sound. Objective measurements significantly parallel the subjective assessments. Sighted assessments introduce a high degree of degradation due to listener bias. This information has been well documented under rigorous conditions. A major portion of the audio world either is unaware of this or chooses to ignore it. DBT testing is extremely difficult to do well especially for the individual audiophile or even by the audio review press. You will note most reviews are sighted and therefore highly susceptible to . listener bias. This is further complicated by advertising dollars which may introduce further bias. So given the limited availability of DBT what is the next best thing. I realize this may get me some "hate mail" but measurements have shown a high degree of correlation with DBT. So in absence of the ability to do a DBT this for most is probably the best "starting point" Fortunately we are seeing more access to good testing. Audioholics certainly has been a great step in this direction. Sites such as Audioscience Review and Erins Audio Corner take this one step further as they do not accept advertising so eliminating this source of bias. (Having said that I have not sensed this as an issue with Audioholics. ) I have considerable concerns with this source of bias in the Popular audio press. I also not the lack of any measurements (exception J Atkinson) . No DBT and no measurements represents personal subjective opinion and bias. No reason their opinion or bias is any more valuable than yours.

 

[lovinthehd]

DBT has been done extensively by Floyd Toole and Shawn Olive at both the Canada Research Council and Harmon
A major portion of the audio world either is unaware of this or chooses to ignore it.

I'd say a good portion of the audio world is aware of this and chooses to ignore it

 

[mono-bloc]

I don't have a clue about what you have read about gun control in the United States [/QUOTE\ You've got that right. Unlike you, as an outsider I can look at your gun problem without any consideration for what should or should not be the answer to the problem, And clearly from what I hear on news broadcasts there are people being killed every week as a result of guns, Your police forces seem to have a license of shoot first and ask later on. And when they do shoot first, there only penalty is there told not to do it again, Consider the case of the lady who dialed 911 and when the police arrived they shot her. No one's to blame if someone stands in the way of a bullet. People don't kill people . Guns do. Your government legislation is in the control of your National Rifle Association who would seem to have huge voting numbers when any changes are put forward. Your constitution needs to be amended to remove the clause "The right to bear arms" of cause this is never going to happen. So the problem is on'going, Tighter licensing may have some effect, if it does exist, ?? So nothing is ever going to change, While you have a "Deliverance" mentality.

 

[lovinthehd]

Agree altho I'd like to see your reply outside of the quote

 

[sterling shoote]

Well, of course I got it right. I do not have any interest in Australian Media Propaganda.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, of course I got it right. I do not have any interest in Australian Media Propaganda.

oops deleted, justy noticed this wasn't in the steam vent subforum....

 

[mono-bloc]

Well, of course I got it right.

You might like to consider American propaganda,, Taken from YOUR publications You might like to comment on these shootings, or are you simply going to ignore the fact these things are going on in your country. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/australian-woman-shot-dead-minneapolis-police-officers-after-calling-911-n78358 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/woman-shoots-intruder-during-911-call/ https://www.pixstory.com/story/can-an-officer-confuse-between-a-gun-and-a-taser/30226

 

[sterling shoote]

You might like to consider American propaganda,, Taken from YOUR publications You might like to comment on these shootings, or are you simply going to ignore the fact these things are going on in your country. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/australian-woman-shot-dead-minneapolis-police-officers-after-calling-911-n78358 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/woman-shoots-intruder-during-911-call/ https://www.pixstory.com/story/can-an-officer-confuse-between-a-gun-and-a-taser/30226

I’m going to ignore you.

 

[mono-bloc]

I’m going to ignore you.

You reply is not unexpected. That's what happens when the truth hits home. Might just be time for you to except reality, instead of avoiding the truth, and then crying when it bites you on the arse

 

[fmw]

Most listeners are capable of making good subjective assessments.

Disagree. I did many blind listening tests in the 1990's. Sighted tests are full of bias and that bias colors our senses. It is possible to train oneself to make bias free subjective evaluations of sonic differences but it is an effort and takes some time. Blind tests are required during the process. Most people do not make accurate subjective decisions about audio. They may be useful and they may get the job done for the listener but they aren't accurate at all with comparisons that involve subtle or non existent sonic differences.

Loudspeakers, for instance, have very obvious sonic differences so evaluation results in preference rather than accuracy. Blind testing isn't really necessary for evaluating speakers. We recognize the tone of the voice of people we know because the differences between voices is not subtle. The sound of loudspeakers is also not subtle.

The problems occur when sonic differences are subtle or non existent. People who hear sonic differences between digital cables, for instance, hear what their brains and bias tell them to hear. A blind test can show that there aren't any sonic differences. Eliminate the bias and you get accuracy. That is useful if you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on an HDMI cable.

How can a power cable affect the sonic performance of an audio system? It can't. This is easily shown with blind testing. Those who spend money on exotic power cables are equipment collectors. That money would have been better spent on speakers and room acoustics.

So subjective evaluations can work in some cases and have no value at all in others. I'm not against being immersed in bias and products of little or no value to sonic accuracy. It is a hobby and there is an entire industry available to feed it. I've been there myself. As I have said elsewhere I am a recovered audiophile so I understand the situation. Blind testing cured me and taught me what matters and what doesn't. It allowed me to quit worrying about sound quality and focus on the content.

If you want great audio have great speakers in a room that is significantly longer than it is wide. That room allows you to put both the speakers and the listener away from walls. Add whatever stuff you need fill the room with sound and enjoy. Use your common sense.

 

[highfigh]

I'd say a good portion of the audio world is aware of this and chooses to ignore it

I think I would call many people 'part of the customer base'- the 'audio world' might be those who are more involved with audio, whether as a profession or avocation.

 

[highfigh]

I don't have a clue about what you have read about gun control in the United States. The US does not have a gun problem it has a problem with a violent devolving population. Government cannot legislate a remedy, only prayer and revival can do that.

And even with the gun buyback and restrictive policies, Australia has had more than 200 gun deaths/year except for 2011 and 2017. Suicide by gun is back to the level before the uptick and most of the Western World had seen a steady decline in gun deaths, so Australia's stats follow the curve, they don't lead it- the buyback and knee-jerk reaction to the New Zealand mass shooting (passed the new Law in only 12 days) hasn't helped.

Australia – Total Number of Gun Deaths

In Australia, annual deaths resulting from firearms total... (open to display chart). Armed violence reduction, development, guns and peace.

www.gunpolicy.org

 

[highfigh]

You might like to consider American propaganda,, Taken from YOUR publications You might like to comment on these shootings, or are you simply going to ignore the fact these things are going on in your country. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/australian-woman-shot-dead-minneapolis-police-officers-after-calling-911-n78358 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/woman-shoots-intruder-during-911-call/ https://www.pixstory.com/story/can-an-officer-confuse-between-a-gun-and-a-taser/30226

This is a thread about audio, not guns and your agenda.

 

[3db]

And even with the gun buyback and restrictive policies, Australia has had more than 200 gun deaths/year except for 2011 and 2017. Suicide by gun is back to the level before the uptick and most of the Western World had seen a steady decline in gun deaths, so Australia's stats follow the curve, they don't lead it- the buyback and knee-jerk reaction to the New Zealand mass shooting (passed the new Law in only 12 days) hasn't helped.

Australia – Total Number of Gun Deaths

In Australia, annual deaths resulting from firearms total... (open to display chart). Armed violence reduction, development, guns and peace.

www.gunpolicy.org

It would appear that this is much lower than the US. Just sayin.