What are You Really Paying for with High-End Audio Gear?

[3db]

Like so many things in life, there are two opposing ways of thinking about buying audio gear.

One way seeks good sound quality by throwing money at it, in an effort to achieve 'state-of-the-art'. The other way seeks good sound quality by learning what is 'good enough'. The difference between the two can be quite a lot of money.

Much of what I like to call the 'Boutique Audio Industry' is well aware that many of its customers don't seem to understand or believe that 'good enough' and 'state-of-the-art' can be indistinguishable.

I liked BMXTRIX's point:

"One thing I emphasize, is that you are no longer paying for the build quality. You are paying for the software support."​

That sums up most modern audio gear, other than loudspeakers.

I understand software support in AVRs and processors, anything with a menu basically. But things like multichannel amps don't have software in them unless BMXTRIX is referring to CAD/CAM software used in developing the amps.

 

[lovinthehd]

I understand software support in AVRs and processors, anything with a menu basically. But things like multichannel amps don't have software in them unless BMXTRIX is referring to CAD/CAM software used in developing the amps.

There are some other things like bluray players that might have need of software support/update....analog amps wouldn't be the case tho

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What are You Really Paying for with High-End Audio Gear?

Why prestige, of course. I had an Audio Research tube amp once upon a time. It made me feel good. It was built like a rock. Measured harmonic distortion was 2%. Not really audible but one can buy lower harmonic distortion and more power for a lot less money without losing any definition.

Yeah, aesthetics and pride of ownership are huge. Also Customer Support and Warranty. Bryston‘s 20YR warranty for analog and ATI’s 7YR Warranty and their customer support are top notch.

Yamaha’s new Avantage series have a industry best 5YR warranty. I have seen Yamaha’s customer support in action as a dealer - they are among the best I’ve seen since they will send you a free shipping label and even offered my client an AVR RETURN BOX for free with free FedEx pickup since he is physically handicapped in a wheelchair. I have never seen any company offer this kind of awesome service. Definitely not for a $2K AVR!

So aesthetics, pride of ownership, warranty, customer support and hopefully reliability.

 

[sterling shoote]

Sidebar: back in 2002 I participated in a 600 yard shooting tournament. There was one shooter on the preparation line who had the most expensive kit of shooting equipment I have ever seen. He noticed I had my eyeballs on his equipment and thus he began to educate me about how his equipment was going to deliver a victory. This is kind of like an "audiophile" telling me why his system is going to deliver a better sound than mine. At any rate, I finished the tournament with a score of 591 out of 600 to win it in all categories and I thanked the shooter with the expensive kit for showing me how to do it. The point being I wish we could get to the truth about audio equipment performance via some sort of tournament taste testing where listening groups vote on preference rather than just a credentialed or non credentialed reviewer's impression of product offering.

 

[3db]

Yeah, aesthetics and pride of ownership are huge. Also Customer Support and Warranty. Bryston‘s 20YR warranty for analog and ATI’s 7YR Warranty and their customer support are top notch.

Yamaha’s new Avantage series have a industry best 5YR warranty. I have seen Yamaha’s customer support in action as a dealer - they are among the best I’ve seen since they will send you a free shipping label and even offered my client an AVR RETURN BOX for free with free FedEx pickup since he is physically handicapped in a wheelchair. I have never seen any company offer this kind of awesome service. Definitely not for a $2K AVR!

So aesthetics, pride of ownership, warranty, customer support and hopefully reliability.

Check the warranties for Krell, Classe, Theta, Anthem, Parasound, etc and you will find them not much better than that of Yamaha, Denon, etc. Bryston is an out lier in the warranty program and its only for their power amps. Shelling money for pride's sake of ownership for no sonic improvement is just stupid vanity, something the audiophool community has in spades. Shelling out money for increased capability to drive a larger range of loudspeakers in the case of power amps as an example is a solid reason.

 

[Swerd]

The point being I wish we could get to the truth about audio equipment performance via some sort of tournament taste testing where listening groups vote on preference rather than just a credentialed or non credentialed reviewer's impression of product offering.

Don't we all wish for something like that?

The difficulty comes in how do you judge it? In shooting, there is an objective score based on how well you hit the target. In audio, judging by individual preference does not come close to an objective score. It doesn't matter how many individuals participate. You cannot account for individual variations in preference, just as you cannot assume that all these individuals will judge by the same criteria.

In major Olympic sports, there are events, where the winner has the fastest time (as in a race) or the highest objective score (as in target shooting). And there are events, such as figure skating or gymnastics, where judges pick a winner, based on their perceptions of a better performance. In a race, the stop watch decides the winner – and in figure skating or gymnastics, a panel of judges pick a winner. There may be efforts to create a fair scoring system, but those scores are still more subjective than a stop watch.

 

[3db]

Don't we all wish for something like that?

The difficulty comes in how do you judge it? In shooting, there is an objective score based on how well you hit the target. In audio, judging by individual preference does not come close to an objective score. It doesn't matter how many individuals participate. You cannot account for individual variations in preference, just as you cannot assume that all these individuals will judge by the same criteria.

In major Olympic sports, there are events, where the winner has the fastest time (as in a race) or the highest objective score (as in target shooting). And there are events, such as figure skating or gymnastics, where judges pick a winner, based on their perceptions of a better performance. In a race, the stop watch decides the winner – and in figure skating or gymnastics, a panel of judges pick a winner. There may be efforts to create a fair scoring system, but those scores are still more subjective than a stop watch.

DBT tests with consistent statistical results is a good indicator and thats how I read Stirling's comment. Remove the bias or the chaff as I see it and the indicators will become apparent.

 

[Swerd]

DBT tests with consistent statistical results is a good indicator and thats how I read Stirling's comment. Remove the bias or the chaff as I see it and the indicators will become apparent.

In a perfect world, DBT tests should provide consistent results, with statistical significance. But I've never seen such a result in a listeners' test of audio products. It doesn't mean it can't be done – only that it's harder to do than anyone has tried, so far.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there often is.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Check the warranties for Krell, Classe, Theta, Anthem, Parasound, etc and you will find them not much better than that of Yamaha, Denon, etc. Bryston is an out lier in the warranty program and its only for their power amps. Shelling money for pride's sake of ownership for no sonic improvement is just stupid vanity, something the audiophool community has in spades. Shelling out money for increased capability to drive a larger range of loudspeakers in the case of power amps as an example is a solid reason.

The 5YR warranty from Yamaha, 7YR warranty from ATI, 20YR warranty from Bryston and their great customer support are nice.

I’m never gonna judge anyone who has money for wanting something nicer in aesthetics or for other reasons I mentioned.

Am certainly not gonna call a fellow pharmacist stupid if he wants to spend his hard earned money on an amp, AVP, etc.

Same goes for other professionals who want to spend their hard-earned money on a nice amp, AVP, etc.

It’s no different than wearing nice clothes, living in large houses, eating at fancy restaurants, etc.

 

[Movie2099]

The 5YR warranty from Yamaha, 7YR warranty from ATI, 20YR warranty from Bryston and their great customer support are nice.

I’m never gonna judge anyone who has money for wanting something nicer in aesthetics or for other reasons I mentioned.

Am certainly not gonna call a fellow pharmacist stupid if he wants to spend his hard earned money on an amp, AVP, etc.

Same goes for other professionals who want to spend their hard-earned money on a nice amp, AVP, etc.

It’s no different than wearing nice clothes, living in large houses, eating at fancy restaurants, etc.

Exactly! Thank you! If I want to purchase my Trinnov Alt 32, my Christie Griffyn projector and multiple Bryston Amps (20 year Warranty!!) and have a 250" screen and be engrossed in sound pumping out of my entire room of Focal Utopia in-walls and 4-JTR 4000's for chest breaking BASS!!! I'm going to do that!! Because I can!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Exactly! Thank you! If I want to purchase my Trinnov Alt 32, my Christie Griffyn projector and multiple Bryston Amps (20 year Warranty!!) and have a 250" screen and be engrossed in sound pumping out of my entire room of Focal Utopia in-walls and 4-JTR 4000's for chest breaking BASS!!! I'm going to do that!! Because I can!!

We'll just hate you for it. But sure.

 

[3db]

The 5YR warranty from Yamaha, 7YR warranty from ATI, 20YR warranty from Bryston and their great customer support are nice.

I’m never gonna judge anyone who has money for wanting something nicer in aesthetics or for other reasons I mentioned.

Am certainly not gonna call a fellow pharmacist stupid if he wants to spend his hard earned money on an amp, AVP, etc.

Same goes for other professionals who want to spend their hard-earned money on a nice amp, AVP, etc.

It’s no different than wearing nice clothes, living in large houses, eating at fancy restaurants, etc.

I see my post requires further explanation as I missed making the point. Sure, purchase nice amps if you like the look but dont turn around and say that the extra price bought you a sonic upgrade and makes the lower price stuff sound like garbage which is audiophool mentality.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I see my post requires further explanation as I missed making the point. Sure, purchase nice amps if you like the look but dont turn around and say that the extra price bought you a sonic upgrade and makes the lower price stuff sound like garbage which is audiophool mentality.

Agreed.

The extra cost can buy aesthetics, pride of ownership, service, warranty and maybe reliability, but maybe not better sound quality.

However, some people believe that certain Auto Room EQ sound better than others. Some people believe that 4-independent sub EQ is worth all that money and makes their systems sound much better.

And if people truly believe that wholeheartedly, who are we to say they are stupid or wrong, even if we don’t believe it?

 

[Pogre]

Agreed.

The extra cost can buy aesthetics, pride of ownership, service, warranty and maybe reliability, but maybe not better sound quality.

However, some people believe that certain Auto Room EQ sound better than others. Some people believe that 4-independent sub EQ is worth all that money and makes their systems sound much better.

And if people truly believe that wholeheartedly, who are we to say they are stupid or wrong, even if we don’t believe it?

If I'm being honest I bought my separate amp just because I wanted one. My system already sounded great and it didn't upgrade my sq but damnit, it's a beast and I know it's gonna last me a long time! I love my big beefy amp.

 

[fmw]

Sidebar: back in 2002 I participated in a 600 yard shooting tournament. There was one shooter on the preparation line who had the most expensive kit of shooting equipment I have ever seen. He noticed I had my eyeballs on his equipment and thus he began to educate me about how his equipment was going to deliver a victory. This is kind of like an "audiophile" telling me why his system is going to deliver a better sound than mine. At any rate, I finished the tournament with a score of 591 out of 600 to win it in all categories and I thanked the shooter with the expensive kit for showing me how to do it. The point being I wish we could get to the truth about audio equipment performance via some sort of tournament taste testing where listening groups vote on preference rather than just a credentialed or non credentialed reviewer's impression of product offering.

This reminds me of the time my piano coach came over for a visit. I took him to my listening room to impress him with the sound of the system. I put on a CD of a recording of his favorite kind of piano music. After a couple of tracks I asked him what he thought. His response was that he liked the way the pianist handled the left hand of the compositions. He wasn't interested in the sound of the reproduction of piano music. He was interested the pianist's performance. It was a good learning experience.

Many years ago I conducted a number of blind listening tests to members of an audio club to which I belonged. What I learned from it all is that what really matters in an audio system are speakers and room acoustics. Everything else is trivial and some of it is ridiculously so. One saturday we tested interconnect cables - 15 pairs of them. We found one pair of Japanese made cables that had high measurable inductance and had a tendency to cut high frequencies. It had an audible effect on the audio, something like a tone control. The group couldn't tell a difference between any of the other 14 pairs regardless of price leading us to conclude that most interconnect cables are competently made regardless of price.

 

[ellisr63]

I see my post requires further explanation as I missed making the point. Sure, purchase nice amps if you like the look but dont turn around and say that the extra price bought you a sonic upgrade and makes the lower price stuff sound like garbage which is audiophool mentality.

100% agree!

Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk

 

[3db]

If I'm being honest I bought my separate amp just because I wanted one. My system already sounded great and it didn't upgrade my sq but damnit, it's a beast and I know it's gonna last me a long time! I love my big beefy amp.

Good for you. You went in with your eyes open and they still remain open.

 

[mono-bloc]

At any rate, I finished the tournament with a score of 591 out of 600

So don't leave us all hanging, where did the guy with the high end guns come in the competition.

 

[MrBoat]

I got to the point of inaudible distortion, double the headroom I can even fathom using in a residential setting, and then quit buying. It will have to malfunction to the point of being beyond practical repair. The music has taken over again. It's how I managed to keep my last system for 20 years. What's even better is how fast people get over new tech and sell off their stuff. Things manufactured 10 years ago are still a valid value if one is not too proud. I would rather own a 10-year-old, secondhand flagship model, than a new budget one.

I found the best (and least expensive) upgrades to be towards source related issues. The best speakers were only revealing what really needed to be addressed. I noticed that great recordings did not need much, if anything, and on a wide variety of systems. Just deep cleaning all of my vinyl was another huge improvement and same with CDs was a notable upgrade. I always loved records when they were brand new. Now that nobody else touches them, they stay that way. The best recordings help me to like a lot of different speakers.

 

[Trell]

I want these for surround in my living room, but oooohhhh so expensive:

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