Utter newbie just doesn't understand. Can you please explain to me why this can't be?

M

Malogato

Audioholic Intern
Ok.. I've got what would be considered a "low-end" receiver, I'm sure.. - Lets put it this way, it cost under $500.00

Anyhow, so the receiver has 5 quantity of what I call "spring clip" positive and negative (Red and black) speaker wire leads.



That's the important part of the back of the receiver.

Anyhow.. the way the receiver functions is I can run either A channel OR b channel, but not both at the same time, and besides, the B channel is only "stereo" anyhow.

I have 5 speakers. (That came with the receiver) + a subwoofer. The 5 speakers are on the aforementioned spring clips, (front's on the "round drill down clips" and I run normally, on "channel A" with five speaker wires going to the 5 speakers. Plus a cable down to the Subwoofer. Main input is optical from my source to the receiver, plugged into "DTV/CBL 2"

What I have acquired is ADDITIONAL speakers (5.1) which I wish to ALSO power off this machine.

Now, it is my belief that If I plug TWO speakers into one spring clip, then the 100 watts (yeah, I know, maximum) output that can go to that clip will be DIVIDED amongst those speakers. Thus, instead of giving me 5 speakers @ 100 watts each, I have 10 speakers @ 50 watts each.

What I am wondering is this. Is there a way to take the speaker wires that are coming OUT of the back of the receiver, plug them into some form of "post-amplifier" that has it's own, seperate power source and "add power" to signal? What I'm basically thinking of is some form of signal/output doubler




Please excuse the terrible paintbrush work

Crutchfield told me "That's impossible, and you'd probably fry your receiver in doing it"

Assuming the "post signal amplifier" as I'll call it worked on the same ohm rating, why would this be? I can accept that there may not be a device that does what I am asking, but why can't you add to the power OUTPUT?

If there is such a device like in my pitiful drawing, what is it called?
 
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M

Malogato

Audioholic Intern
P.S. I don't want to have to buy a different receiver (it's for aesthetic reasons) so this is why I want to add as kirk would ask of scotty, more POWAR!


Basically, I think 10 speakers on 5 channels will give more sound, and more depth than 5 speakers on 5 channels. I just don't want to halve the power to those speakers.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
1) If you hook two speakers to one post, you will make the receiver try to double it's power. Your receiver can't handle this.
Example: If you tie both + and both - of two 8ohm speakers, you get one 4ohm speaker.

Option: Tie one 8ohm speaker - to the other 8ohm speaker +. Now take the remaining + and - and hook to receiver. You have one 16ohm speaker. This will half the power output of your receiver.
You are better off using one 8ohm speaker per post.

2) You have to have pre-outs to run an external amp. :(
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, you would toast your reciever. If you aren't satisfied with the sound you're getting now, then you need to upgrade your speakers. Besides, you're going to get incoherent sound if you have 10 speakers in a 5.1 configuration.
 
Resident Loser

Resident Loser

Senior Audioholic
What you need...

...to do what you want to do, is a set of jacks labeled "pre-out"...unfortunately you don't have them...and you just can't take the speaker output and feed it to an outboard amplifier's input...the voltage level would be too great and damage is fairly certain... While not impossible(there are ways to accomplish this) it's not something I recommend trying with an amp over say 20Wpc...voltage dividers, direct injection boxes, even line output converters can do this.

You could wire two speakers to each terminal, but that presents it's own special problems...if both are 8 Ohms wiring them in parallel will present a 4 Ohm load to the receiver...question is, will the unit like a 4 0hm(and quite probably lower) load...wiring them in series gives a 16 Ohm load and the amp may not take kindly to that either...usually such systems are designed to work as...er...designed, with very little wiggle room, with their specific parameters...plus, that's a lot of wire to stuff in those spring-type connectors, shorts and stray wires being what they are...

With re: to stereo, the terminology is: a receiver is a tuner+pre-amp+power-amp on one chassis...the alternatve is a separate tuner AND an integrated amp, which is a pre-amp+a power amp on one chassis...and lastly complete separates, each component on it's own chassis with separate power supplies etc. HT and/or multi-channel is a bit more complicated, but those are the basic building blocks.

jimHJJ(...BTW I think A and B refer to speaker selection, not channel...thats usually L and R etc....)
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The problem with what you are trying to do is that you are trying to add power on top of power which is not something that amplifiers can do. Amplifiers expect a very specific level of power coming into them, this level is called line level (unless it is a microphone amp). It is carried on RCA cables and many receivers allow for outboard amplifiers, but yours does not.

If your A/V receiver allowed for outboard amplification, it would have a set of outputs on the back that look similar to this:


The rest of the information is pretty accurate. You, technically, can run two pairs of speakers off of one terminal if the following conditions are true:
1. Both pairs of speakers are 8 ohm (find this out)
2. The A/V receiver can handle 4 ohm loads

If that is the case, then run both sets of speakers off the same terminal if you really want to. There is no harm in it other than totally destroying your sound quality. You may gain a fair amount of volume, but definitely at a loss of overall sound quality.

I always point people towards the Onkyo S770 system when they have less than 500 bucks to spend on a system. Though I haven't heard it (in a theater) myself, those who have, or who own it, swear by it as being by far the best bang for the buck product. Around 400 bucks and you get a lot more versatility than the receiver you currently have. Might be worth taking a look at.
 
R

rschleicher

Audioholic
An earlier reply suggested wiring the two sets of speakers in series, instead of in parallel. In a perfect world, this would result in half power to each of the two speakers that are wired in series, without risking amplifier problems due to drawing too much current. But, unless the two speakers that are hooked in series are EXACTLY identical, you will get very strange frequency response out of each speaker.

This is because real speakers don't look like a constant impedance at all frequencies. An "8 ohm" speaker will have dips to 4 ohms or less at some frequencies, and will have impedance peaks at other frequencies. This is not to mention that speaker impedance is a complex number, consisting of both an impedance magnitude, plus a phase angle.

Bottom line is that the power split won't be 50/50 across the frequency band. At one frequency it might be 90/10, at another frequency it might be 10/90. If the two speakers are the same brand and model, and are located close to each other, it might not be too bad. But otherwise you will get a terribly un-flat frequency response out of both speakers.

You are much better off in using the parallel speakers approach, and just keeping the volume down (which might be missing the point of having two sets of speakers, or else biting the bullet and getting a receiver with pre-out jacks, to drive a second amp.
 
M

Malogato

Audioholic Intern
OK.. let me ask this then..

I said the reason why I don't want to get a different receiver is because of the fact that I like the aesthetics of the one I have. Can I, somehow, buy a SECOND identical receiver, and put two INPUTs two it from my source? i.e. I don't think optical output is two way communication, so, is it possible to either a) split an optical cable into two optical outs so that I can "repeat the process" or, b) split the currently unused, but present, electrical output on my device (and thus be plugging two "RCA" wires into the ORANGE jacks on the back of TWIN receivers?

I'd prefer A with optical, what I know as "toslink led" cables

As long as the cable lengths are the same, there shouldn't be any sort of sound time differential where one receiver is processing sound 2 seconds later then the other (i mean, at the speed of light, wouldn't it have to be like, 370,000 miles longer?)

I appreciate your responses. I'm a home audio newbie.

The reason why I don't change speakers is because I don't know if "better speakers" that are rated for more wattage will sound any "louder" if the receiver isn't driving more out to them.. Taking the receiver manufacturer at their word, and that they are putting out 100watts per channel (I know, they exaggerate) and the speakers themselves do 100watts per channel, would I benefit any further by getting speakers rated for 300 watts? The only benefit I can imagine is that I'd get a higher QUALITY sound when I "turn the knob up to 11" - because putting max power output of 100 watts out a receiver to speakers at 100 watts max input rating is going to give me some "loss in quality" whereas pushing 100 watts out a receiver to 300 watt speakers means the speakers will only be running at 1/3 of their capability [if my understanding is correct] and therefore, shouldn't "distort" at all.

I mean, speakers get their power from the receiver, so isnt' "100 watts still always 100watts"?

The benefit of "over-sized" larger wattage (or diameter for that matter) speakers is that I can turn the knob up higher before it sounds like crap, no?


Resident Loser said:
.
jimHJJ(...BTW I think A and B refer to speaker selection, not channel...thats usually L and R etc....)

I actually knew that, mis-spoke my meaning. The way the setup is now, is that I can run 2 speakers [LEFT AND RIGHT, fronts] on "Speaker Selection group B" or 5(.1) speakers [FL,FR,SL,SR,CENTER,Sub] on "Speaker Selection Group A" But not both.

I have a dinky little 10 year old sony receiver that can run Groups "A" and "B" simultaneously. this receiver can either do A (5.1) or B (2.0) ..



If I had this yamaha receiver [RXV2500B] could I in to "DTV - 5" then out on say, MD/TAPE - 1 then take that out into the DTV - 5 on the second rxv2500b?

Basically, reasking my question, is there anyway to "clone" my optical sound output?


What I have is the http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/HTIB/HTIB_150_1.htm
Yamaha HTIB 150.. + 5 more speakers that are third party.


But will this (toslink cable splitter) let me have one toslink optical cable coming out of my source, then have two going to two identical receivers?
http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat%5Fid=102&sku=27027&engine=adwords!654&keyword=%28toslink+splitter%29

Will there be some kind of "noticable" signal degredation?
 
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Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
You need to be looking at the sensitivity of the speaker, not power range. The higher the sensitivity, the louder the speaker will be with your receiver.

I just can't grasp why you want to waste your money on two 5.1 systems, when you only need one. You are overthinking this whole thing. :confused:

Usually, when you buy a higher-end Yamaha receiver, the aesthetics are similar or improved.
 
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JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
Carver used to make a device that connected to speaker level outputs and gave an output that was optimized for a power amp. I believe the device was only 2-channel so it would require 2 or more of these devices. With one or more of those you could use an external power amp or amps. Check with Carver for availibility.:cool:
 
M

Malogato

Audioholic Intern
zumbo said:
You need to be looking at the sensitivity of the speaker, not power range. The higher the sensitivity, the louder the speaker will be with your receiver.

I just can't grasp why you want to waste your money on two 5.1 systems, when you only need one. You are overthinking this whole thing. :confused:

Usually, when you buy a higher-end Yamaha receiver, the aesthetics are similar or improved.
One Yamaha HTR-5730 : $149
Total Advertised Power : 615 Watts (6 x 103)

Two Yamaha HTR-5730 : $298
Total Advertised Power : 1230 Watts (12 x 103)

1 Unknown receiver pushing 200 watts per channel + speakers which I don't own that can take 200 watts per channel, $????? But I'm betting it's more than $298.

I bought my entire YHT-150 system for $245.00 I can buy another identical receiver that is used in the YHT-150 system for $150. I have speakers to go with second receiver for free.

While I'm sure there is merit to the "quality" of sound, with such systems as onkyo, denon, etc.. I can't justify spending "thousands of dollars" for a system. the previously mentioned onkyo system is rated BELOW my crappy little yamaha.

I don't know anything about "sensitivity" of speakers.. I know volume. I know that if I take my yamaha system, and turn it up, with the included speakers it has, at a certain point, it'll start to sound like crap.

Lets say that the magic "sound like crap #" was -10
but at -25, it sounded nice. [the yamaha display goes from -80 to +16]

I believe that if I have TWO receivers at -25, they will produce more total "volume" [i.e. can be heard from farther away, rattle the windows harder, make my ears bleed sooner, whatever you want.] than if one of them was running at -25

What I had been hoping was that I could somehow drive JUST the extra speakers WITHOUT having to get additional, or replacement, receivers.

I need MORE volume. The "better" model yamaha machines offer more FEATURES, but unless I'm buying a $1,000 receiver, they don't seem to offer more "wattage" which I may be taking as a mis-value to represent total potential volume.


Like I said, I'm a newbie. But I can't understand why I would want, say, the RX-v SERIES, versus my say, HTR series.

Here's what YAMAHA has to say about it

yamaha website said:
What Is The Difference Between The RX-V Line And The HTR Line?


There are many similarities between these two product lines. The RX-V line and the HTR line are produced in the same Yamaha factory using the same high quality parts throughout. The RX-V and equivalent HTR models have the same warranty periods, the same manufacturer's suggested retail price, the same features, and the same remote control units.

There is a cosmetic difference found on the front panels of these two lines. The RX-V line maintains the traditional white colored lettering normally found on most Yamaha components, while the HTR line provides a slightly different approach. Yamaha has created a new look by using gold colored lettering in selected areas on the HTR receiver series. However, both the RX-V line and the HTR line feature the same high quality front panel construction.

The amplifiers in the HTR and RX-V units are identical but rated differently to comply with the accepted measurement standards of their respective channels of distribution. Both ratings are FTC approved and are designed to handle the dynamics of today's audio and video sources. The RX-V line has the power amplifiers rated from 20-20000 Hz. The HTR line has the power amplifiers rated at 1000 Hz. Both lines can reproduce the full frequency response of 20-20000 Hz.

The RX-V line is typically sold through Yamaha authorized audio/video specialty retailers, and is not available for mail order sales, phone sales, or internet sales.

The HTR line is sold through mass merchants, catalog retailers, and department stores. You may also purchase the HTR line through the mail, by phone, or at authorized internet retailers.

All transactions must be done through the authorized Yamaha dealer network. Any purchase made from an unauthorized dealer/retailer voids the Yamaha manufacturer's warranty.
What this translates to me as is "The HTR's are identical to our RX-V's, except we market them as "cheaper" products so that enthusiasts will buy our higher priced "professional" products."

But they use the same components.

I'm not trying to argue.. I'm trying to ask..

I don't see any "200 watt + per channel" output Home theater setup, that's silver, that's in my price range.
 
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Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Malogato said:
I don't see any "200 watt + per channel" output Home theater setup, that's silver, that's in my price range.
This may sound harsh, but you want to make a $250 system sound like a $1000 system. It aint going to happen. IMO your choices are to cough up some more money and start from scratch, try to find something used or accept what you have. Your current system is like a Ford Escort. Nothing wrong with that. But you are not going to turn it into a Mercedes by trying to stuff a bigger engine into it. What you end up with is a half assed piece of junk. I wish you the best in your journey to better sound.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
You want good speakers. That's the bottom line. How you get them, I can't help you with, but if you have headroom left in your amp, and turning it up just makes things worse, there is a really good chance, the issue is with your speakers, not the recevier.

When I got my new speakers a couple years ago, Definitive Technology BP-30 speakers, which were basically the most kick-*** speakers Def-Tech made without built in cruddy subwoofers, I hooked it up to my piece-o-junk Kenwood receiver. At the SAME volume level, I was getting at least twice as much volume (sound pressure) out of the new speakers as compared to my old ones. And as I turned the volume way up, they kept sounding just as good.

I'm not saying you can afford some really nice speakers, but you may find it worth it to go to a store with a liberal return policy and audition some decent speakers in your home before you try some crazy audio setup that won't really improve your listening experience at all.
 
D

Die Hard Yammy

Junior Audioholic
In regards to your beef about "less wattage" on new receivers, you've got to remember something. You say your receiver is 200 watts per channel, yes for the left and right. I can't say for sure, but I''m guessing the other channels (surround , centre) by no means provide 200 watts per channel.

With new receivers, yes they say total power output is 660 watts, but thats 110watts distributed evenly over six channels or even seven. By having even power distribution over all channels it requires less volume to fill a room.

The advice you were given about getting better speakers is also a wise alternative to your receiver dilemma. You can have the best receiver in the world, but if your speakers are crap or can't handle the output of your receiver, it doesn't matter how many more speakers you hook up to it, it'll sound like caca. The same can be said for receivers. you could have the best speakers in the world, but they'll only sound as good as what you put into them.

Just think about or research some of the advice you've been provided with, you'll find that you may want to consider a complete upgrade.

Audio is not something to be rushed, take your time and make wise purchases.
A good theatre is worth it's weight in gold!
 
M

Malogato

Audioholic Intern
Nick250 said:
This may sound harsh, but you want to make a $250 system sound like a $1000 system. It aint going to happen. IMO your choices are to cough up some more money and start from scratch, try to find something used or accept what you have. Your current system is like a Ford Escort. Nothing wrong with that. But you are not going to turn it into a Mercedes by trying to stuff a bigger engine into it. What you end up with is a half assed piece of junk. I wish you the best in your journey to better sound.
I think you and I don't see things the same way. Yes, I admit my system is a ford escort.. I'm not trying to get it to be a mercedes, however. It's not about better sound. It's about more, equal sound.

Lets go with your car analogy.

Ford escort can carry 100 lbs of groceries
Mercedes can carry 200lbs of groceries

TWO ford escorts can carry 200lbs of groceries.

Two escorts cost less than 1 mercedes.

I'm not trying to make a $250 system sound like a $1000 system.. I trying to make a $250 system sound like two $250 systems.

In regards to your beef about "less wattage" on new receivers, you've got to remember something. You say your receiver is 200 watts per channel, yes for the left and right. I can't say for sure, but I''m guessing the other channels (surround , centre) by no means provide 200 watts per channel.
Actually, I said 100 watts per channel.
According to yamaha, that receiver (HTR-5730) is 103 watts x 6
I know they exaggerate.. But they ALL exaggerate. I think when denon says some receiver is 130 watts.. its probably really only 100 watts.
Yamaha may exaggerate MORE, but I don't think they exaggerate any more or less on their $4500 receivers than they do on their $149 receivers

If they RX-Z9 is rated at 170 watts, and the HTR-5730 is 103 watts.. I'm betting they are both really 70% of of advertised. I'm not of the belief that the RX-Z9 is somehow really 170, where the htr-5730 is only 20.


I'm going old school. - Think chorus, choir, etc..
If you want to make the brass section of your band sound louder, you ADD more brass instruments. TWO tuba's give more sound than one tuba.

Yes, maybe some sort of "super tuba" could do that job too.

but 50 tuba's sound a hole hell of a lot louder than 1.
My logic is that it's the same with speakers and receivers. TWO 615 watt receivers pumping out say, 70% of their power [430 watts x 2 = 860 watts] is going to sound LOUDER than one 720 watt machine maxed to 100%, and probably less chance of distortion, or, for that matter, blowing out the speakers.

Or am I wrong?
If I yell for someone who is really far away... and they can't hear me.. doesn't my FRIEND who is standing right next to me yelling, HELP my chance of being heard? Or do I not even understand the laws of nature as they relate to sound?

I'm looking for more total volume. [sound pressure]
 
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mcwilson

mcwilson

Audioholic
I think buried deep in the posts was a very good bit of advice from BMXTRIX that you may have overlooked. If you want better and more sound, you best bet is to upgrade the speakers only. If you have money to spend, put it all into new speakers. Maybe on a decent set of front speakers. Then later when you've saved a bit more money, on center, then surrounds.

Mark
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Malogato said:
I think you and I don't see things the same way. Yes, I admit my system is a ford escort.. I'm not trying to get it to be a mercedes, however.

Lets go with your car analogy.

Ford escort can carry 100 lbs of groceries
Mercedes can carry 200lbs of groceries

TWO ford escorts can carry 200lbs of groceries.

Two escorts cost less than 1 mercedes.

I'm not trying to make a $250 system sound like a $1000 system.. I trying to make a $250 system sound like two $250 systems.

I'm looking for more total volume. [sound pressure]
I know what you have been asking for, greater volume. I don't see this as a receiver issue but as a speaker issue. Hook up a $1000 receiver to $1000 speakers and you will have a nice sound. Now hook up the $1000 speakers to a $200 receiver and it will still sound darn good. Now hook up the $1000 receiver to crappy speakers and the sound will be crappy. I think the answer for you may well be to find used efficent speakers and that will get you the volume you seek. Klipsch usually makes very efficent speakers and there are many others. Other members chould chime in here with other speakers suggestions.
 
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ducker

ducker

Full Audioholic
I'm fairly new to the whole home theater setup but I think there's a very basic way to explain this.

Speakers have a "Sensitivity" rating. The higher the sensitivity the better the performace of the speaker will be with the same amount of signal going to it. Cheap speakers might have a rating of say 84db. Where as nicer speakers will have a value of 94db or higher. Those speakers with higher Sensitivity will put out more sound with the same amount of power.

Your car analogy doesn't really work IMHO. That is unless you are only concerned about filling a room with "sound" (I would call this more like volume/noise). Personally, I would like quality vs. quantity. You'll get the volume you'er looking for with a better pair of speakers.

If I yell for someone who is really far away... and they can't hear me.. doesn't my FRIEND who is standing right next to me yelling, HELP my chance of being heard? Or do I not even understand the laws of nature as they relate to sound?
Say that person standing REALLY far way hasn't cleaned their ears in 10 years. So true they can't hear you... But he can hear both of you yelling... Even better if there were 3 people yelling.... That's great. Wouldn't it be SO much easier if you just addressed the root problem? Clean out the guys ears.

Twice as many speakers, receivers, etc... it's such a waste of resources, money, effort. When simply a decent set of speakers would most likely do the job.

What type of speakers are you running now???
 
Resident Loser

Resident Loser

Senior Audioholic
I think most readers...

...spend their time reading specs and reviews, listening and "designing" a system based on long standing practices...while some gear is chosen as building blocks for future expansion, other stuff is considered expendable...things are designed to work in a specific fashion with a specific purpose...any seeming hodge-podge of equipment is usually part of a well thought out scheme...yours, on the other hand, is an approach that is not normally taken...and with good reason...it is ill-conceived...sorry, there is just no other way to say it.Some of your questions may have a valid premise but, are more suited to a physics lab IMO, than this venue, particularly since a plan such as yours just isn't done by most participants in this hobby.

Yes, you can probably feed one source into two "systems" but why? Ten speakers...two volume controls...two input selectors...just sonic and physical and/or mechanical confusion IMO...it really makes little sense.

What you need is an amplifier of sufficient power and loudspeakers of suitable efficiency and power handling to suit your decibel requirements. Adding or combining things in a less-than-logical fashion will most likely not achieve the results you might think they would.

jimHJJ(...twice the power, twice the number of speakers and twice the distortion and twice the wiring and...)
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I think this is one of the things you keep avoiding with all your posts...

You keep going POWER! POWER! POWER!

You already have power! You have said you have headroom on your receiver to turn it up signicantly more - BUT THE SPEAKERS CAN'T HANDLE IT.

If you put 50 tuba players in a room and none of them know how to play, you don't get more tuba music - you get really obnoxious noise. If you put two escorts together trying to carry the same load, at the same time, in the same place, you will end up with one escort on top of the other and it just ends up being an accident.

Good speakers are something you will value for years, but more importantly, they will give you the SPL you are looking to achieve. eBay or www.audiogon.com are excellent sources to find reasonably priced speakers. Then, maybe you can sell your cheap speakers and really have some audio that will blow you out of the room. I recognize that my setup is a lot more than you have to spend, but your mindset is really off. I'm not talking about getting you just good sound, I'm talking about getting you a LOT more sound. The plus is that it will also sound better, be easier to work with if you decide to upgrade, and will be excellent for years to come.

Don't forget: Use correct speaker wire! Not the skinny 20 gauge garbage that comes with speakers, but at least a 16 or 14 gauge wire that you can pick up at Home Depot or Radio Shack. That may have a big impact on what you already own if the wiring is not good.

As I said - some stores have liberal return policies, take advantage of them to audition some decent speakers.
 
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