Trump GUILTY of Fraud

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
No. There would have to be a conviction, they won’t hear a charge
You mean you cannot appeal an appeals court decision?
A Georgia Court of Appeals on Thursday disqualified Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis from prosecuting the case against President-elect Donald Trump and his alleged co-conspirators over charges of 2020 election subversion.

How did the appeals court got involved in the first place?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
No matter how you slice it, the DA demonstrated a shocking lack of judgement in this case.

>>>A Georgia Court of Appeals on Thursday disqualified Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis from prosecuting the case against President-elect Donald Trump and his alleged co-conspirators over charges of 2020 election subversion.

The long-awaited decision, in a state criminal case against Trump that was already on hold, raises questions about whether the case can move forward in court. The appeals court found that Willis’ office can’t prosecute the case, so a new special prosecutor would need to be appointed for the case to continue. . . . Trump and some of his co-defendants have been trying to get Willis disqualified from the case because of a romantic relationship she had with Nathan Wade, the special prosecutor she hired to help handle the case. <<<

Can this be appealed to next level of court?
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Yes. We can’t shield politicians from investigation and obtaining data in those investigations, they aren’t above the law.
When it benefits you anyway. I suspect Don Jr believes in the law to a point. As I've said before: open investigations up to everyone regardless of partisan, or shut the truck up!


>>>“So the house is going to vote to protect itself from glaring and obvious wrongdoing? The American people didn’t vote for this. They voted for the opposite. They voted for transparency. This cannot pass,” Donald Trump Jr. said on the social platform X.

He shared a post from conservative media personality Benny Johnson, who highlighted a provision in the CR that he said would let Congress block subpoenas for House data, such as emails, that he said could prevent an investigation into the now-defunct House committee that investigated the Capitol attack on Jan. 6, 2021.<<<
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Field Marshall
When it benefits you anyway. I suspect Don Jr believes in the law to a point. As I've said before: open investigations up to everyone regardless of partisan, or shut the truck up!


>>>“So the house is going to vote to protect itself from glaring and obvious wrongdoing? The American people didn’t vote for this. They voted for the opposite. They voted for transparency. This cannot pass,” Donald Trump Jr. said on the social platform X.

He shared a post from conservative media personality Benny Johnson, who highlighted a provision in the CR that he said would let Congress block subpoenas for House data, such as emails, that he said could prevent an investigation into the now-defunct House committee that investigated the Capitol attack on Jan. 6, 2021.<<<
The problem is it would protect them forever from everything. A little too far
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
When it benefits you anyway. I suspect Don Jr believes in the law to a point. As I've said before: open investigations up to everyone regardless of partisan, or shut the truck up!


>>>“So the house is going to vote to protect itself from glaring and obvious wrongdoing? The American people didn’t vote for this. They voted for the opposite. They voted for transparency. This cannot pass,” Donald Trump Jr. said on the social platform X.

He shared a post from conservative media personality Benny Johnson, who highlighted a provision in the CR that he said would let Congress block subpoenas for House data, such as emails, that he said could prevent an investigation into the now-defunct House committee that investigated the Capitol attack on Jan. 6, 2021.<<<
Take the following with a grain of salt because I have not studied this in detail.

I don't think it's as draconian as it's being presented (that's not to say it's a good idea, of course).

It appears to me it is intended to prevent an "end run" on legislative immunity by getting a court order requiring a service provider to disclose data that would otherwise be subject to an assertion of legislative immunity. The definitions for this section start at page 236 of the following .pdf

https://legiscan.com/US/text/HB10445/2023

Here's the text of the CR in question:

>>>(d) MOTIONS TO QUASH OR MODIFY .—Upon a motion made promptly by a House office or provider for a
House office, a court of competent jurisdiction shall quash or modify any legal process directed to the provider for
a House office
if compliance with the legal process would require the disclosure of House data of the House office.<<< (emphasis added)

It does not say anything about a legal process directed to the House office itself.

Huge difference.

From the definitions:

>>>the term ‘‘provider for a House office’’ means a provider of electronic communication service or remote computing service directly commissioned or used by a House office to provide such services<<<

Also, from the section following the definitions:

>>>A House office shall be deemed to retain possession of any House data of the House office,
without regard to the use by the House office of any individual or entity described in paragraph
(2) for the purposes of any function or service described in paragraph (2)<<<

In other words, if someone wants to get the data by way of a legal action, they have to get it from the House office, not a provider of services to the House office.

As I read it, it's similar to a law saying that an internet service provider can't disclose your private emails in a lawsuit unless the service provider has your permission.

The bill DOES NOT say that the House office has unlimited privilege permitting refusal to disclose data in all circumstances. It also does NOT provide substantive immunity.

Granted, there is a split in the Circuit Courts concerning privilege:

>>>The D.C. Circuit has established the documentary nondisclosure privilege.209 In a series of
opinions, the circuit court determined that the Clause bars any compelled disclosure—not just the
evidentiary use—of written materials that fall “within the sphere of legitimate legislative
activity.”210 According to the D.C. Circuit, this privilege is broad and “absolute,” and applies with
equal “vigor” as the other aspects of the Clause.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit (Ninth Circuit) and the Third Circuit have
rejected this documentary nondisclosure privilege, considering it an undue expansion of the
Clause. Instead, these courts have held, at least in criminal cases, that the Clause prohibits only
the evidentiary use of privileged documents, not their mere disclosure to the government for
review as part of an investigation. The disagreement has not been addressed by the Supreme
Court.<<<


Presumably, someone wanting access to House data would file in the 9th or 3rd circuit if possible, but they may not have jurisdiction in some cases. And, of course, circuit splits often lead to Supreme Court decisions to resolve the split, so the law is far from settled.

Again, take my initial impressions above with a large grain of salt. This is well outside of my area of practice, and I'd be interested in an evaluation by someone with more experience in this area of law. My take on this may be completely off wack.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Take the following with a grain of salt because I have not studied this in detail.

I don't think it's as draconian as it's being presented (that's not to say it's a good idea, of course).

It appears to me it is intended to prevent an "end run" on legislative immunity by getting a court order requiring a service provider to disclose data that would otherwise be subject to an assertion of legislative immunity. The definitions for this section start at page 236 of the following .pdf

https://legiscan.com/US/text/HB10445/2023

Here's the text of the CR in question:

>>>(d) MOTIONS TO QUASH OR MODIFY .—Upon a motion made promptly by a House office or provider for a
House office, a court of competent jurisdiction shall quash or modify any legal process directed to the provider for
a House office
if compliance with the legal process would require the disclosure of House data of the House office.<<< (emphasis added)

It does not say anything about a legal process directed to the House office itself.

Huge difference.

From the definitions:

>>>the term ‘‘provider for a House office’’ means a provider of electronic communication service or remote computing service directly commissioned or used by a House office to provide such services<<<

Also, from the section following the definitions:

>>>A House office shall be deemed to retain possession of any House data of the House office,
without regard to the use by the House office of any individual or entity described in paragraph
(2) for the purposes of any function or service described in paragraph (2)<<<

In other words, if someone wants to get the data by way of a legal action, they have to get it from the House office, not a provider of services to the House office.

As I read it, it's similar to a law saying that an internet service provider can't disclose your private emails in a lawsuit unless the service provider has your permission.

The bill DOES NOT say that the House office has unlimited privilege permitting refusal to disclose data in all circumstances. It also does NOT provide substantive immunity.

Granted, there is a split in the Circuit Courts concerning privilege:

>>>The D.C. Circuit has established the documentary nondisclosure privilege.209 In a series of
opinions, the circuit court determined that the Clause bars any compelled disclosure—not just the
evidentiary use—of written materials that fall “within the sphere of legitimate legislative
activity.”210 According to the D.C. Circuit, this privilege is broad and “absolute,” and applies with
equal “vigor” as the other aspects of the Clause.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit (Ninth Circuit) and the Third Circuit have
rejected this documentary nondisclosure privilege, considering it an undue expansion of the
Clause. Instead, these courts have held, at least in criminal cases, that the Clause prohibits only
the evidentiary use of privileged documents, not their mere disclosure to the government for
review as part of an investigation. The disagreement has not been addressed by the Supreme
Court.<<<


Presumably, someone wanting access to House data would file in the 9th or 3rd circuit if possible, but they may not have jurisdiction in some cases. And, of course, circuit splits often lead to Supreme Court decisions to resolve the split, so the law is far from settled.

Again, take my initial impressions above with a large grain of salt. This is well outside of my area of practice, and I'd be interested in an evaluation by someone with more experience in this area of law. My take on this may be completely off wack.
I was just saying it's unlikely Don Jr. isn't doing this for purely the law but to change the narrative on J6.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
In theory he could get locked up if he's convicted the NY hush money (Stormy Daniels) criminal case, but the reality is that even if he's convicted no judge will give him jail time for a conviction in that criminal case.
It looks like no jail time:

>>>NEW YORK, Jan 3 (Reuters) - President-elect Donald Trump will be sentenced on Jan. 10 in the criminal case in which he was convicted on charges involving hush money paid to a porn star, but is unlikely to face jail time or other penalties, a judge said on Friday. . . .

The judge said Trump, 78, may appear at his sentencing either in person or virtually.

He wrote that he was not inclined to sentence Trump to jail, and that a sentence of "unconditional discharge" - meaning no custody, monetary fine, or probation - would be "the most viable solution."<<<(emphasis added)

 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Field Marshall
It looks like no jail time:

>>>NEW YORK, Jan 3 (Reuters) - President-elect Donald Trump will be sentenced on Jan. 10 in the criminal case in which he was convicted on charges involving hush money paid to a porn star, but is unlikely to face jail time or other penalties, a judge said on Friday. . . .

The judge said Trump, 78, may appear at his sentencing either in person or virtually.

He wrote that he was not inclined to sentence Trump to jail, and that a sentence of "unconditional discharge" - meaning no custody, monetary fine, or probation - would be "the most viable solution."<<<(emphasis added)

I think if the judge changes his mind and sentences Trump to jail time it would create a Constitutional crisis along with public outcry from the Right. Protect the Office of the President or protect the Office of the President. If the judge does what he’s said he will do all we get is a political talking point and more poo flinging from both sides, more division is not what this country needs, quite a mess we have right now
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I think if the judge changes his mind and sentences Trump to jail time it would create a Constitutional crisis along with public outcry from the Right. Protect the Office of the President or protect the Office of the President. If the judge does what he’s said he will do all we get is a political talking point and more poo flinging from both sides, more division is not what this country needs, quite a mess we have right now
In the unlikely event the judge were to sentence Trump to serve time in jail the judge would undoubtedly stay incarceration pending appeal, and the appeals would drag out more than 4 years.

As a practical matter, this case will not result in Trump being incarcerated so it’s effectively a moot point.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Trump's most recent appeal in the NY hush money case was rejected:

>>>A New York appellate court on Tuesday declined to halt President-elect Donald J. Trump’s criminal sentencing, damping his hopes of shutting down the case before returning to the White House. . . .

“I wouldn’t be surprised if he attempts to get a federal court to intervene at this point, but that’s really a Hail Mary,” said Mark Zauderer, a New York litigator who specializes in appeals. . . .

Before the election, Mr. Trump was facing up to four years in prison, though legal experts predicted that he would spend no more than a few weeks or months behind bars.

In the ruling last week, Justice Merchan suggested that he would impose an unconditional discharge of Mr. Trump’s sentence, a rare and lenient alternative to jail or probation. Unlike a conditional discharge, which allows defendants to avoid punishment if they pay restitution or hold down a job, an unconditional discharge would come without any requirements at all.<<<(emphasis added)

 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
So, how's that great Judicial system in the State of NY doing with regards to Trumpy's sentencing ? One word comes to mind, what a .......JOKE !!
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
So, how's that great Judicial system in the State of NY doing with regards to Trumpy's sentencing ? One word comes to mind, what a .......JOKE !!
You can thank the US Supreme Court for that with their immunity ruling. Four of the US Supreme Court justices wanted to grant Trumps petition to not have any sentencing at all.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Field Marshall
So, how's that great Judicial system in the State of NY doing with regards to Trumpy's sentencing ? One word comes to mind, what a .......JOKE !!
A lot of Conservatives are mad at Amy Coney Barrett but I think she just handed Trump gift. Politically Merchon should have dismissed the case with a strongly worded letter but he chose to convict without punishment. I guess if you want to be sacrificial lamb you can do whatever you want but a peace offering even if contrived would have been smarter. Possibly as thin as the case against Trump, Merchon could be looking at witness tampering and if a prosecutor could get it to stick it’ll be really ugly and he won’t get off without punishment. A carrot would have been a little wiser.
 
AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

Audiophyte
The whole thing is and was ridiculous from the start. Any other human in these situations would have been in jail.
But no, because of who he is, the entire judicial system shows how corrupt it is by giving him pass after pass after pass.
This whole thing has shown to the world just how corrupt and broken the justice system.
Can't wait for Trump et al. to get rid of term limits and jail all the people who dared to stand up to these people.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
You can thank the US Supreme Court for that with their immunity ruling. Four of the US Supreme Court justices wanted to grant Trumps petition to not have any sentencing at all.
Trump has a chance on appeal based on the immunity (evidence) issue. That's not trivial. He's toast on the other issues (it's not really that black and white, of course, that's just my best guess).

For those who are worked up based on politics (not the law), I tend to agree with this person's point of view.

>>>And folks will complain that Bragg wouldn’t have brought the case against a person named something other than “Trump”—which is really the same complaint [that the case is political]. And there’s a grain of truth in this version of the complaint too. None of the other people who have won the presidency after paying hush money to adult film performers and falsifying business records to disguise the payments as legal expenses have faced criminal charges as a result, after all.<<< (emphasis added)

 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Trump has a chance on appeal based on the immunity (evidence) issue. That's not trivial. He's toast on the other issues (it's not really that black and white, of course, that's just my best guess).

For those who are worked up based on politics (not the law), I tend to agree with this person's point of view.

>>>And folks will complain that Bragg wouldn’t have brought the case against a person named something other than “Trump”—which is really the same complaint [that the case is political]. And there’s a grain of truth in this version of the complaint too. None of the other people who have won the presidency after paying hush money to adult film performers and falsifying business records to disguise the payments as legal expenses have faced criminal charges as a result, after all.<<< (emphasis added)

Well, business fraud is a serious crime in NY.
 

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