Top Ten Signs of Cable Vendor Snake Oil

What is Your Favorite "Snake Oil" Cable Scam?

  • Strand Jumping

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Diode Rectification

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Audiogenic Distortion

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Eddy Current Minimization

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Soakage

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Skin Effect

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Cable Elevators

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Break In

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Cryogenically Freezing

    Votes: 4 33.3%

  • Total voters
    12
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Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you people all have a chip on your shoulder! I'm a professional musician and sound engineer, who's also been an audiophile for many years. I've heard the effects of cable break in many, many times. It's not fiction.</td></tr></table>

Certainly our perceptions seem every bit as real to us as anything can be. But the problem is, and which has been proved beyond doubt, is that our perceptions are not always accurate reflections of the physical reality.

For example:



Here we perceive that A and B are the two ends of a straight line. But the physical reality is that A and C are the two ends of a straight line.

Similarly, just because we may perceive some difference in our audio systems it doesn't mean that that perception is necessarily due to any actual audible stimulus. Indeed, it's been demonstrated time and time again that people may perceive differences even in the complete absense of any physical difference.

And of course these perceived differences in the absence of actual physical differences will seem just as real to us as those perceptions which are due to actual physical difference.

Which is perhaps why it's so difficult for some people to come to grips with well-established human psychology and physiology.

But this notion that simply because one perceives some difference that it MUST be due to some realworld, physical change in our audio equipment simply flies in the face of over a century's worth of well-established facts. You might as well start arguing against Ohm's Law.

Now, this isn't to say that ALL perceived differences are due psychological/physiological phenomena. Only that until those very real possibilities are ruled out (and ruled out by something other than sheer ego and insistance as you illustrate in your post), one cannot say with a sufficient degree of confidence whether certain perceived differences are due to actual audible stimulus.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't care about measurements. I care about sound!</td></tr></table>

That's fine. Seeing as how something sounds is a personal, subjective judgement, there should be no questioning how one goes about determining what sounds best to them.

But when you make testable objective claims, such as claims regarding actual audibility you're no longer in that subjective realm and your sighted subjective perceptions do nothing to substantiate such claims. Neither do your claims of being a professional musician, sound engineer or audiophile.

Professional musicians, sound engineers and audiophiles are all human beings and as such they are susceptible to the same idiosyncracies as other human beings.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Use your ears, people.</td></tr></table>

Using your ears is fine when it comes to determining what works best for you. They're not quite so fine when it comes to establishing objective realities such as actual audibility. That's because our ears are plugged into our brain and because of that, our perceptions can be altered in ways which can have nothing to do with actual sensory input.

There was an article recently in the New York Times that illustrates this quite well.

It concerned some research carried out by a neuroscientist at Baylor College of Medicine.

It had to do with the old &quot;Pepsi Challenge&quot; ad campaign back in the 70s and 80s where they went out on the street and asked people to try both Pepsi and Coke, but without knowing which was which. The majority of people chose Pepsi over Coke.

The researcher repeated the Pepsi Challenge test on subjects while monitoring their brain activity with an MRI.

When the subjects didn't know which was which, the majority preferred Pepsi, and the MRI indicated that under these blind conditions, that when drinking Pepsi, the subjects had greater activity in the region of the brain called the ventral putamen which is thought to process feelings of reward.

So he decided to repeat the test, but this time, instead of the blind conditions of before, the subjects would be told which was which.

Now the results were reversed. The majority of the subjects preferred Coke over Pepsi. Further, this time there was now activity in the area of the brain called the medial prefrontal cortex, which is said to govern high-level cognitive powers.

Basically, under sighted conditions, the subjects' higher level brain functions, i.e. the effects of Coke's &quot;branding&quot; practices and their images of Coke, overrorde the subjects' sensory input and produced an entirely different result when it came to preference.

While this doesn't relate directly to being able to detect simple differences, it's a prime example of how our perceptions under sighted conditions can be altered by that which has nothing to do with actual physical stimulus.

And that's why, when it comes to establishing whether something produces an actual audible difference, sighted listening tests carry little weight.

se</font>
 
Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, people, use your ears!!!! Not everything can be measured. Just because it can't be measured, does it mean it doesn't exist? As a guitar player, I can plug into a '64 Fender Twin Reverb tube amp and realize instantly that I'm playing and hearing something very special, something that many other amps can't compare to. Can I measure it? How do I prove it? I can't. As a player or a listener, I just have to use my ears. How can you prove that a real Strativarius is one of the best violins ever created? Again, you can't........</td></tr></table>

Here you're talking about preference. Which is a subjective, individual assessment which no one should question or challenge. One likes what they like, period.

But the question here is whether a given cable will produce actual audible differences versus another cable. That's a whole other matter and has nothing to do with subjective preference.

Certainly you may perceive differences between cables under sighted conditions and I don't believe anyone questions that you do, but that does not in itself establish that there are differences which are due to actual audible stimulus.

se</font>
 
N

NOFAITH

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Greenroom;

Sorry for my implication that you work for MIT, I should have said Tara Labs ;)

Seriously if you think your cable is improving the sound of your guitar, who are we to pass judgement? &nbsp;Enjoy!</font>
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But, you do the same thing using a Mark Levinson or Krell reference system($100,000+), you'll hear a big improvement with the expensive cables.</td></tr></table>

I love it when people equate price directly to sound quality, what a waste of time. If one of the big Japanese manufacturers made the same item it would cost one third the price. They also spend in a month on R&amp;D what a smaller boutique audio company spends in a year.

I could do a lot to upgrade my audio system with $1800, but it sure wouldn't go towards cables. For that kind of money I could obtain much greater improvements elsewhere.</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Greenroom;

I don't follow most of your logic. &nbsp;You claim when putting together a very high end system you need mathing high end cables. &nbsp;Usually high end gear (if designed well) is better able to cope with poor cables (IE. High capacitive, poor shielding) since the outputs should be more robust and the inputs should have better filtering and Common Mode Rejection, no?

What is your definition of &quot;better&quot; cables? &nbsp;Is it packaging, apperances, or real cable metrics?

Case in point, I set up a $20K speaker system this weekend. &nbsp;When connecting the subwoofer amps to the preamp using exotic interconnect cables, I had audible hum and noise when the volume was maxed out. &nbsp;I replaced the exotic cables with a shielded twisted pair cable from Belden and the problem was nearly 100% eliminated. &nbsp;In this case, a $5 cable clearly outperformed a $500 exotic interconnect. &nbsp;Grant it, the $5 cable wont win any beauty contest prizes, but who cares, they are located behind the system and away from visible view.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>I'm going to say something that I'm sure to most people here is pure heresy. Our hearing sucks. At least compared to the rest of the animal kingdom it does. 20 KHz of bandwidth is not much in relation to the known frequency spectrum. Our ability to measure the behavior of electrons in wires, and sound waves in the air, far exceeds the hearing ability of anything on this planet. If you claim that something sounds different, then that means the waveform must BE different. And that CAN be measured by modern electronics. We can measure timing differences into the picoseconds, and AC signals into the Gigahertz. There is nothing in the audio spectrum that we cannot analyze. Bottom line: I don't trust &quot;your&quot; ears. I don't know if I can trust mine either.</font>
 
Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm going to say something that I'm sure to most people here is pure heresy. Our hearing sucks. At least compared to the rest of the animal kingdom it does. 20 KHz of bandwidth is not much in relation to the known frequency spectrum. Our ability to measure the behavior of electrons in wires, and sound waves in the air, far exceeds the hearing ability of anything on this planet. If you claim that something sounds different, then that means the waveform must BE different. And that CAN be measured by modern electronics. We can measure timing differences into the picoseconds, and AC signals into the Gigahertz. There is nothing in the audio spectrum that we cannot analyze.</td></tr></table>

Well, as I've said a number of times (not here but elsewhere), all that we can possibly hear from our audio systems amount to nothing more than changes in air pressure versus time. And we have the capability of doing that to levels far lower than can be perceived by humans under realworld conditions.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bottom line: I don't trust &quot;your&quot; ears. I don't know if I can trust mine either.</td></tr></table>

Depends what one is trusting their ears to do. I trust my ears completely when it comes to deciding what I like, what sounds best to me, etc. In that regard I'm a hedonist and the only thing that matters is my ultimate enjoyment in the end, regardless of whether that enjoyment comes about due to acutal audible differences or to psychological phenomena.

However I don't trust my ears, or more accurately my brain and my subjective perceptions, to always be an entirely accurate reflection of the physical reality.

se</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Ok people, you're quite a bunch. One of you is a paranoid, neurotic, who thinks I work for a cable manufacturer. One of you is trying to give me Rorschach test. Another is telling me that my hearing sucks compared to a dog. All I'm hearing is that a person's perception doesn't count. All that counts are scientific measurements.
&nbsp;First of all, the reason that I've written these emails, is that I received an email from &quot;Audioholics&quot;. I must be on an audiophile email list. The email immediately attacked high end cables, calling them &quot;snake oil&quot;. I clicked on the link to this site and felt I had to respond.
&nbsp; To the people who say high end cables have made their systems sound worse or made their systems &quot;hum&quot; - you've either bought defective cables, or you've not matched the correct cable to your system! Just as music is an art, assembling a high end audio system is also an art. My advice - go to a reputable, knowledgable &nbsp;high-end dealer and have them make cabling suggestions, based on your individual systems.
&nbsp; &nbsp;Yes music is subjective....Hello!....and sound can be subjective. But, there are certain qualities that trained listeners can hear, over and over. For instance, certain cables and certain other components, for that matter, can increase the depth and width of a soundstage. Certain cables can create a sense of &quot;air&quot; around images in a soundstage, thereby delineating them to a greater degree than other cables. Some cables can produce a &quot;blacker&quot; background, thereby enhancing resolution and dynamics. Not to mention that some cables sound darker or brighter than others. These qualities, I and many other trained listeners, CAN HEAR! How do you measure this? You can measure frequency response. You can measure distortions in a sine wave. How do you measure these other qualties, such as soundstage depth? YOU CAN&quot;T, at least not at this point in the 21st century. Maybe someday....
&nbsp; &nbsp;I'm a trained musician and engineer with many years of experience. I'm not &quot;just tooting my own horn&quot;, but I can hear many qualities in an audio signal. Just like you can see a stop sign and tell that it's red. I can hear an &quot;A&quot; note and tell that it's 440hz. I can hear chord voicings and write out the individual notes. I can even hear music in my head and write out a composition while sitting on an airplane, with no instruments. When I finally play the piece, it's sounds like I envisioned it. How do I do this.....I've been trained to hear. In the audio realm, I can hear when a signal has been compressed and have a good idea what the slope is on the attack and release of the note. I can hear the effects of subtle changes in a digital reverb settings. I can tell which frequencies are too predominant in a mix of a song, Etc....And I can sure hear the effects of different cables and which ones are producing a more realistic portrait of sound in a given system. And many high end cables offer superior performance to their more generic counterparts. I'm not saying that more money = more quality in all instances, but more often than not, it is true.
&nbsp; &nbsp; Can everyone hear the difference? No! Some people honestly don't hear the differences in audio cables or other components, because they don't care to, it's not important to them, because they've never trained themselves to or because they have a bias against them.
&nbsp; Here are some tips for improving your listening skills. Master these exercises and then talk to me.
1.Learn to recognize frequency ranges -To have perfect pitch means that you can identify each note blindfolded. Grab an eq and have a friend boost or cut individual frequencies while listening to pink noise. Practice until you can identify each frequency blindfolded.
2. Learn the effects of bandwidth &nbsp;limiting &nbsp;- use shelving eq's to practice.
3. Learn to identify comb filtering
4. Learn to identify the sound of great recordings well-produced; perception of dynamics, space and depth. Start by becoming familiar with the sound of great recordings made with purist mike techniques, little or no equalization or compression. Learn what wide dynamic range and clear transients sound like captured and reproduced. Finally, hear a great deal of live music, to know what it really sounds like.
- I could go on....learn to hear tape overload, qualties of reverb chambers, learn to hear bad edits, wow and flutter, polarity problems. &quot;Earientation&quot; should be a lifelong activity.
&nbsp; &nbsp;Why is all important? Because, if you can hear all this, then you can better judge the quality of recorded sound and not just &quot;subjectively&quot;. You can judge when a component or cable reproduces all the dymanics, subtle cues and inner detail that make a recording sound closer to reality. This my friends, cannot be faithfully and completely measured by any test equipment.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>&quot;To the people who say high end cables have made their systems sound worse or made their systems &quot;hum&quot; - you've either bought defective cables, or you've not matched the correct cable to your system! Just as music is an art, assembling a high end audio system is also an art. My advice - go to a reputable, knowledgable  high-end dealer and have them make cabling suggestions, based on your individual systems.&quot;
Excellent performance in a given system is not art, it's applied technology. Music is art. The confusion of the two is the curse of consumer high end.
I am on a pro audio net with people like Bob Katz, Nika Aldrich, and Dave Moulton. The real pro's of this business certainly don't go in for snake oil cables, and it certainly tells me that your education is lacking in this area, You certainly seem to have the money to  waste to make up for your lack of education.
Anytime you would like to give your real name and who you really work for is fine with me.

Dan Banquer
R.E. Designs</font>
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Greenroom,

The 440Hz A note is the most commonly recognized note in the music industry. It is the open A note of the A string on a guitar. Many people can pick it. As for voicings, chords typically contain 3-4 notes. If you are a musician you'll recognize the chord, then it's just a matter of picking the order in which the notes are arranged frequency wise, typically the root note (or the one with the lowest frequency) will come over as the most dominant. In terms of your pink noise test, I doubt you would be able to pick the changes with just 1-2dB difference.

Air, blackness, brightness etc. these are the terms that are not well defined. They are often loosely defined to allow for wiggle room by some audiophiles. However in general &quot;air&quot; is related to presence which is affected by the response in the midrange frequencies. &quot;Blackness&quot; is typically related to the absence of noise, and brightness is attributed to the response at the higher end of the frequency range. All of which is measurable.

My point is that these things are all measurable, it's the loose definition by snake oil cable vendors and golden eared audiophiles which purposely create a mystique around cables by refering to audio qualities as if they are judging wine.

Cables are linear devices; period. They do not posses rectification qualities and do not create harmonic or intermodulation distortion. They have three basic properties, R, L &amp; C. The R is constant with frequency, and if R is low relative to the load then it's pretty much a non issue. So that leaves two factors that can affect audible performance, L &amp; C. These two factors affect amplitude vs frequency, that's it. As a trained engineer you should be very familiar with this.

So any changes in audible properties should be attributable to these two measurable factors.

Finally, to reitierate. No one has said that cables do not make an audible difference to sound quality, they can. What has been said time and again is that unquantifiable cahnges in audio should not be claimed with even less quantifiable physical and electrical properties.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>I too am an audio engineer. I have worked in recording studios; postproduction studios and I have been custom installing high-end home theaters and house audio systems for the past 12 years. It was the wiring I did in studios that led me to be skeptical about cable claims. After wiring the TTL patch bay of an SSL console, I was amazed that any form of high quality audio could come out of such a varied and complicated signal pathway. It occurred to me that if the &quot;simple&quot;, small gauge Belden wire I was using was the standard for the industry, then how in the world could a patch cable that goes three feet from a CD player to the preamp make a difference in the playback? If any other cable was somehow inferior to the cable in my system, then the &quot;damage&quot; has already been done. If the microphone cable that goes from the mic to the mic preamp in the studio isn’t &quot;as good&quot; as some MIT or Tara Labs cable, then that violin sound that just traveled down it must be ruined for life. I certainly hope you don't think that high-end cables can magically bring back some sound quality that was lost back in the mastering stage.

Now lets consider the inside of a high end CD player or DAC. The dac is on a printed circuit board. Evan if it’s a mil spec four-layer super duper circuit board, its still has paper thin copper traces they may only be fractions of an inch wide. This leads to the rca connectors on the back of the device. At the input end on the preamp, is the same thing. What makes anybody believe that for the few microseconds that the signal travels from the back of the CD player to the input on the preamp, that it needs a cable that cost $100.00 a foot to carry it? Does the signal go &quot;Wow, I sure am glad I'm out of that cramped, thin circuit board trace.” &quot;Holy cow, look at all this fine expensive well braided copper in this cable I'm in. It sure feels good in here&quot;

If the CD or DVD transport was in the same chassis as the preamp and amp, (a design that exists nowadays called Home Theater in a Box), the signal would travel along the same circuit board to the preamp section, and then to the amp section. If Krell were to make a HTIB would they be putting monster cable jumpers between the different sections? Of course not. I've worked inside a Krell HTS and the different circuit boards are wired together with simple ribbon cables. The inside of my Parasound Halo C2 is the same way. There is no reason to believe that such a product would perform worse that a stack of separates, so why is it OK to wire the inside with ribbon cables, but you need really expensive cables to interconnect them if they are in separate boxes?

This is the kind of simple, logical, common sense thinking that is missing from the audiophile world today. Audio has come a long way lately. With SACD and DVD-Audio, we are getting far better sound in our living rooms for somewhat less money, the ever before. But it’s still not real. We do not have the technology to recreate everything that happens in a live performance, in a different room then it was performed in. Not yet. If I bought every thing that was supposed to give me better tighter bass, I should have Stanley Clark in my living room. It's clear that some people are willing to try and believe anything that they think will get them better sound. By definition, I am an audiophile, and I have a pretty high-end system, but I am not willing to buy into the nonsense of high-end voodoo.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Ok, to Dan Banquer, the paranoid, neurotic: &nbsp;Who the hell do you think I am? I've told you who I am. I don't have any affiliations with any high end audio manufacturers. I have simply listened to, and worked professionally with audio components over many years and educated my ear to discriminate and understand what I'm hearing. Do you hear voices in your head? Do you think everyone is plotting against you? Do you see invisible rabbits named Harvey?
&nbsp; &nbsp; In addition, I've had projects mastered in quite a few top mastering houses. Take one, for example - Bob Ludwig's Gateway Mastering, in Maine. Do you know what cables he uses for his mastering system? He uses reference level &quot;Transparent Audio&quot; cables, a brand that is very similar to the more well known &quot;MIT&quot; brand. He has spent literally tens of thousands on dollars on his cabing. Everyone go to their CD collections and count how many Cd's you own that were mastered by Bob......quite a few, probably. So, you are listening to many CD's that were mastered using &quot;snakeoil&quot;. Oh my God! Bob had discussed with me, at one time, the many improvements that these cables brought to his system. He, exhaustively tested many brands of cables over months, before he made his decision. Bob's golden rule that he imparted to me.....Use Your Ears! If it sounds right, it is right!
&nbsp; And yes, I've read Bob Katz and others. I have a great deal of respect for Bob. I don't think that he would stand in opposition to anything I've said.
&nbsp; To PaulF: &nbsp;By the way A 440 is the first string (high E) of the guitar, fretted at the 5th fret. The 5th string open is an &quot;A&quot; note an octave lower at 220hz. Oh boy.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>In addition, to Jay - I respect your thoughts, and I agree that the extensive wiring schemes, patchbays, etc. in many studios can be a nightmare. They actually do degrade the sound. Recording straight through a high quality preamp with good cables, into &nbsp;a DAW or tape machine, is always the best way to go. But, it's not practical in many situations. But, listen to a good Telarc recording, done with good cables and a minimum of electronics and processing, and you'll hear a superior product, technically.
&nbsp; &nbsp;My main point on all of this is, just LISTEN! I've heard the improvements that many high end cables impart. I'm a trained listener. I'm not making this stuff up. Just listen, extensively, before you come to a conclusion and just write off all high end cables. Many of them are excellent products.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Now we have something to agree on. I would like to see recordings made with less &quot;stuff&quot; between the mics and the recorder. What Bob Ludwig is doing in his mastering studios kind of supports my ideas on cables. If a professional studio is wired with &quot;better&quot; cables, then there might be a chance that in the final playback, there will be a difference in sound quality depending on how your system is wired. If a studio wants to invest in expensive wiring, it certainly won't hurt. I still think that right now we are far from having any kind of recording and playback system that will really bring the listener the full experience of the original performance.

My main problem is that I think that some people are taken advantage of with claims of better performance with no real way to back it up. I have a client that is really into Linn. He bought the full Klymax system. That is full triamping a pair of Keltic speakers with eight of their 500-watt mono Klymax amps. (There are two woofers in each speaker) &nbsp;Would I tell somebody they NEED 500 watts to the tweeter? No. But he is a millionaire and I didn't talk him into the system. He knew what he was getting and he wanted it. He is very happy with his system and that’s good for him. By the way, his system is wired with simple Linn and Canare cables. It sounds fantastic. My point here is that I would have never tried to sell him the system under the justification that it will get him closer to the original performance. As good as it sounds, he will never believe that the symphony is in front of him, and he knows it never will. I think that cable companies will claim anything to get people to buy their stuff and this is where I stop my pursuit of high-end audio.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Any time you would like to stop hiding is still fine with me. I guess you just don't feel comfortable with your real identity whatever that is, or maybe you just have a lot to hide, or maybe you have a sizeable financial stake in snake oil.
I have been to Dave Moulton's Lab in Groton. He uses zip cord for speaker wire. He has also done lots of testing for people like Belden. Your claims are dubious at best, not only from my experience but Dave's testing.
As a suggestion maybe you try reading some of the cable articles on this web site, or maybe some of Henry Ott. You love to say &quot;just use your ears&quot;
 I say use your brain that's supposed to be between your ears. 
Have a nice day.
Dan Banquer
www.redesignsaudio.com</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Greenroom;

We have extended you quite a bit of flexibility in your postings.  However, you latest series of name callings (particularly against Dan Banquer - a contributor to Audioholics.com) will not be tolerated.  Consider this a warning.  We also encourage you to register and post under your real name, if for nothing more than to add credibility to your arguments and assign responsibility to your statements.

We are glad you are enthusiastic about cables.  Expensive cables can be very pretty and alluring.  However, rarely do they measure, let alone perform better than standard well constructed 10AWG Zip Cord ($50/100ft), nor do they need to considering their intended purpose.  If you/others wish to spend $10K on cables, and not address the far more important, non trivial  issues in audio (ie. loudspeakers, room acoustics, source material,etc), then be our guest.  This is capitalism, buy what you desire
 

However, we would all appreciate it if you/others refrain from peddling and referencing psuedo sciences or false religious faiths about products, particularly regarding cables to justify &nbsp;viewpoints and lack of tangible proofs.

To be of the mindset that one can hear differences in cables (Note this topic address cables only, not speakers, electronics, moon phase, etc) that they cannot measure implies:
1) Lack of understanding of basic electronics.
2) Lack of understanding of how the human ear and psychological perception affects ones hearing.
3) Motivated sales agenda to promote esoteric, high profit margin cables.

Since you claim no affiliation to exotic cable vendors, one can only conclude you must fit under #1 &amp; #2 categories.  That being the case,  I refer you to the many articles we have authored about cables to help educate consumers of real world issues involving audio/video cables.

Audio/Video Cable Principles

You may also wish to read up on an interview article that was conducted at ecoustics.com about this very subject:
Cable FAQ Interview


Please also note that cables can and do sound different, but for reasons that are quantifiable and measurable.  If speaker cable A and speaker cable B share very similar R,L,C measurements, they will be sonically indistinguishable.

[edited: spelling]</font>
 
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G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Don't worry guys, this is my last post. I don't have time for this any more. First of all, to Dan, I don't appreciate being called a liar. That's what you're doing when you insist that I'm hiding behind some moniker. Again, I have nothing to hide. I reiterate that you must be nothing more than a paranoid neurotic. I can't find any other explanation for your statements.
&nbsp; To Gene, you people are the ones who contacted me. I received a &quot;spam -like&quot; email, which I happened to glance at, that went on and on about cables being &quot;snakeoil&quot;. I never asked to receive this, but it prompted me to write a few posts. Then I'm accused of having some kind of hidden agenda. Give me a break.
&nbsp; After participating in this forum with you people, I now realize that your original spam mail truly reflected your (most of you, that is) biased, narrow minded attitudes. I'm not saying that measurements aren't useful or valid, they are, but there's more to selecting audio components than just that. I would never purchase a mic preamp, power amp, A/D, or a cable soley based on measured performance. Once again, you have to use your ears, and in doing so over the course of many years, I have heard the obvious and sometimes dramatic improvements that many excellent high end cables bring to playback and recording systems. But, you people believe what you want to believe - &quot;If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist&quot;. Good luck with your zip cords. Goodbye.</font>
 
Guest : <font color='#000000'>you people are the ones who contacted me. I received a &quot;spam -like&quot; email, which I happened to glance at, that went on and on about cables being &quot;snakeoil&quot;. I never asked to receive this, but it prompted me to write a few posts.</font>
<font color='#000080'>Well, since we haven't bought or used any outside email lists, I suppose you mean that you subscribed to our newsletter and then forgot??

I don't think we solely advocate Zip cord, but they do measure better than quite a few more expensive cables. Enough to give us pause.

We're not against using your ears, either - but we also recommend you use your brain, something that many people in support of expensive cables refuse to do.
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Jay,

Boy I wish I had your client's system. What a dream. To your point, Linn's speaker cable for their $40K/pair Komri speakers cost about $30 a pop. I read this in a review, even the reviewer was surprised when the $30 cables bettered his very expensive standard interconnects.

Greenroom originally worte
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To PaulF:  By the way A 440 is the first string (high E) of the guitar, fretted at the 5th fret. The 5th string open is an &quot;A&quot; note an octave lower at 220hz. Oh boy.</td></tr></table>

Yes I suppose that's true for common guitar tuning. I'm a little rusty. Tuning the A string to 440 is also used as noted here:

Vaughns
Guitar Notes

It's also a common tuning fork frequency and as the A note  above middle C commonly is used by musicians to tune their instruments to each other. The A4 note = 440Hz, if this note is the fifth fretted note of high E then the open A string should be A2 which is 110Hz (not A3 = 220Hz as noted above)

My point is that it is a very common and well recognized note. Hopefully it will allow you to determine the real difference between speaker cables regardless of price and lofty manufacturer claims.</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Greenroom;

I commend you for adding red herrings to your argument and going off topic from cables. &nbsp;Perhaps you should re-read my statements in my last post:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To be of the mindset that one can hear differences in cables (Note this topic address cables only, not speakers, electronics, moon phase, etc) that they cannot measure implies:</td></tr></table>

Notice again, I was discussing CABLES, not preamps, speakers, or any other devices. &nbsp;

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