TLS Guy -vs- Studio 100's

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm starting to think that music and speakers are like bullets and guns. You never should have tried to play that piece on those speakers. As has been mentioned earlier I bought a copy of the Hilliard Ensemble's Lassus based on jostenmeat's recommendation. I finally got around to playing it on my main system as I was trying to figure out my next step with tuning my EQ. I quickly realized that while I was okay with exploring this music on other (lesser) systems, I could not tolerate another minute of it on my living room system. It was making me nuts. Maybe it's the state of my EQ but trying to define where those four singerfellas were was brutally grating. :p
Choral music is very revealing test material, and I usually include some, but time did not permit.




Here is easier access to the graphs over at Stereophile and at the graphs by the NRC.




While I have always claimed to dislike any kind of jazz save one LP, while at ParadigmDawg's house listening to his choice of demo music on his Studio 100's powered by whatever flavor of overkill that he has over there, I found that I liked it. That demo didn't fail to impress even though it was a type of music I had never enjoyed before. I'm starting to think that I had never heard it on the right speakers.



I take it you don't own the entire collection of John Cougar Melloncamp's works. :p
You guessed correctly you genius.


Okay, back to the matter at hand.



I see where something is going on at ~3KHz. The speech discrimination band (?) keeps getting mentioned and I wonder exactly that is. I did a test with my RTA and I seem to have a range from 100Hz-1,000Hz. You mentioned not crossing in the speech discrimination band and not below 350Hz. You have some explaining to do unless I am to remain confused about this too. :)

I didn't realize Minnesota was that cold already ... and -20F in winter?
You must have been a bad man in a previous life. :p
That is what a former Russian colleague of mine used to say!

Yes, the waterfall plot shows that the situation is pretty disastrous either side of the upper crossover point were things really start to fall apart.

One thing really stands out, for some reason they elected to go with a misalignment. If you look at the impedance curve the camel humps in the bass show a severe misalignment, and accounts for the splashy spreading bass. In a correct alignment the low point of the curve between the tuning humps should be right at the driver resonant frequency Fs. I know darn well the tuning frequency of those small bass drivers is not 20 Hz, which even the best sub drivers have trouble achieving.

There is a dip, in the lower mid range and then a peak centered at 3 kHz. This always sounds bad to me. You must never have a rise of even 0.5 of a db around in the 3 kHz region, or violins, brass, piano, and flutes will sound very unnatural. A dip in that region is a far better tolerated vice. Associated with all of this is is severe phase aberrations, and this usually goes hand in hand.

All in all those graphs, show a speaker that I would dislike a lot, and I would not expect a purchaser with a large varied classical collection to be able to abide them.

The issue with low crossover points with passive crossovers is due to the severe problems produced as a consequence of the huge values of the inductors and caps involved. The load becomes insanely reactive. I'm unrepentant in my belief that 350 Hz and preferably 400 Hz should be as low as you should design a passive crossover. If you want to go lower than that you need to design an active speaker.

The critical speech discrimination band is from around 350 Hz to 2 kHz however the band is usually considered to be from 350 Hz to 4 kHz. Not only is reproducing this band critical for intelligible natural speech, it carries over into music reproduction also, as it is a region where the ear is most sensitive to aberrations of all types.

In closing I did recently here a very nice speaker on my trip to England at my sister and brother in laws house. It was small ATC bookshelf selling at roughly $1000 per pair. The speaker was beautifully voiced, although stated rolling off around 90 Hz because of its small size. However its tonal balance and articulation were superb.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Have you spent any time with PSB speakers ? Paul Barton is a classical violinist. I find his speaker lines to be more consistent. Especially compared to Paradigms newer lines of speakers which tend to be noticeably brighter. PSB's tend to be more neutral to my ears.
I'm sorry, I have never had a chance to hear a speaker from PSB.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
You guessed correctly you genius.
:D You completely floored me with that. :D

I'm going to give the rest of your response a better going over. Thanks. :)

If you look at the impedance curve the camel humps in the bass show a severe misalignment, and accounts for the splashy spreading bass. In a correct alignment the low point of the curve between the tuning humps should be right at the driver resonant frequency Fs.
It's easier to look at the graph being spoken about.



Back to looking ...
 
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ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I feel like I should say something on this thread but I've got nothing....
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If any one of us were to spend a lot of critical listening time on a speaker that offered a response that was in the range of +_ 1db across its range set up properly and in a good acoustic environment, that would change our perception of good, or even acceptable forever.
Your comment about "in a good acoustic environment" is where most people stop working on getting the best sound from their system but I have seen few systems that were within 1dB. Oddly enough, the closest I have seen to that was in an LDS Stake Center, where they use Atlas ceiling mounted speakers, have commercial carpeting, White equalizers and the system is equalized so a person can move around the whole space without hearing much difference in the sound of the speaker. Those speakers are nothing special, in any way but they do what the requirements call for. They actually sounded good for music, too.

Some people buy and sell equipment on a regular basis in hopes that the sound will be the best ever and it always falls short. That 3KHz peak I mentioned early on in this thread is bad enough on its own but in a room with strong first reflections and being a generally reverberant space, it would require some analysis and treatment to cure the faults.

Bias has more to do with a predisposition, perception can be, according to dictionary.com, "the act or faculty of apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding", which is closer to what I meant.

Not that I'm widely considered "an expert" but as someone who has sold and listened to audio equipment for over 30 years, I doubt if I could care less about who makes what and what brand a speaker system is. If it sounds great, I'm in. If it sounds bad, forget it. We all have preferences and sometimes we develop biases based on what we read and hear about things but our perceptions are from the real experience, coupled with those biases. Familiarity and our minds makes it possible to prefer a sound that's not necessarily "correct", but it sounds good to us.

We all have some degree of hearing damage, regardless of where we live, what we do and how careful we are with exposure to dangerous sound levels. That makes it possible for us to hear some frequencies better or worse than "normal". In my case, my left ear is less sensitive in a fairly wide band in the mid-range than my right, but it still qualifies as "normal for my age". My right ear is more sensitive than "normal for my age" and that affects how I hear balance between the left and right channels. It also makes some speakers grate on my nerves worse than fingernails on a chalkboard (which really doesn't bother me). I think that any person who wants to find the best sound for them, needs to have their hearing tested, so they know if/where any areas of increased/decreased acuity are. It would definitely make for a more informed opinion.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I feel like I should say something on this thread but I've got nothing....
I feel a little bad that I'm using your speakers to get an education on by the evil Dr. Carter but the good news is that he's in Minesota freezing his @ss off and you're in toasty Texas not listening to classical music anyway. :)

That waterfall I posted showing the peak @ ~3KHz appears to be a measurement of external cabinet resonance. I think putting two layers of Peel & Seal on the outside of your cabinet should take care of that. A trip to Lowe's and a pair of scissors ...just kidding, well ... kind of. I'm kidding about putting it on the outside anyways ... yes, I am prepared to take my lumps for saying that but I think it's clear that I wouldn't hesitate.

... back to my studies ...

Edit: My motto?: If you're not taking it apart, your missing half the fun.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
We all have some degree of hearing damage, regardless of where we live, what we do and how careful we are with exposure to dangerous sound levels. That makes it possible for us to hear some frequencies better or worse than "normal". In my case, my left ear is less sensitive in a fairly wide band in the mid-range than my right, but it still qualifies as "normal for my age". My right ear is more sensitive than "normal for my age" and that affects how I hear balance between the left and right channels. It also makes some speakers grate on my nerves worse than fingernails on a chalkboard (which really doesn't bother me). I think that any person who wants to find the best sound for them, needs to have their hearing tested, so they know if/where any areas of increased/decreased acuity are. It would definitely make for a more informed opinion.
I'm curious, do you implement any type of EQ or balance adjustments to compensate for your assymetric hearing, or do you look for whatever best compromises between both ears?
Pre-Amp sections used to have ganged tone controls. The forward half of the knob was for the left channel and the rearward half of the knob was for the right channel.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I feel a little bad that I'm using your speakers to get an education on by the evil Dr. Carter but the good news is that he's in Minesota freezing his @ss off and you're in toasty Texas not listening to classical music anyway. :)

That waterfall I posted showing the peak @ ~3KHz appears to be a measurement of external cabinet resonance. I think putting two layers of Peel & Seal on the outside of your cabinet should take care of that. A trip to Lowe's and a pair of scissors ...just kidding, well ... kind of. I'm kidding about putting it on the outside anyways ... yes, I am prepared to take my lumps for saying that but I think it's clear that I wouldn't hesitate.

... back to my studies ...

Edit: My motto?: If you're not taking it apart, your missing half the fun.
So, this presents an interesting quandary. If I test my ears and discover their faults and sensitivities, do I try to replicate what I hear today at a live concert, or what I believe it sounded like before the "wear and tear".
It would be interesting to get thorough hearing tests done, but would it really be of siginificant use in deciding what is good vs bad SQ?
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Don't feel bad and I don't really care if anyone likes my set up or not. At times I want to go get the 802D's but then I go into my living room, hit the play button and just smile.

My major drawback is my room. I have said many times that the room treatments where my best upgrade ever but you and Andrew took all my acoustic panels. I fear that even 20k speakers would just get confused in my room and it wouldn't be worth even trying them.

It's cold here too, only getting up to 80 today.
I feel a little bad that I'm using your speakers to get an education on by the evil Dr. Carter but the good news is that he's in Minesota freezing his @ss off and you're in toasty Texas not listening to classical music anyway. :)

That waterfall I posted showing the peak @ ~3KHz appears to be a measurement of external cabinet resonance. I think putting two layers of Peel & Seal on the outside of your cabinet should take care of that. A trip to Lowe's and a pair of scissors ...just kidding, well ... kind of. I'm kidding about putting it on the outside anyways ... yes, I am prepared to take my lumps for saying that but I think it's clear that I wouldn't hesitate.

... back to my studies ...

Edit: My motto?: If you're not taking it apart, your missing half the fun.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
If I test my ears and discover their faults and sensitivities, do I try to replicate what I hear today at a live concert, or what I believe it sounded like before the "wear and tear".
If you replicate the live concert you hear what you heard and all is well. If you happen to have a dip in your ability to hear at 5KHz to the tune of say 20dB from the norm and EQ that wayyyy up, it won't sound natural to you but you will be hearing what normal people hear.

I just got through asking WmAx about this. I'm striving to get a pretty flat room response with a little roll off at the high end. I thought about boosting the response @ 5KHz because my hearing is afflicted there.

What ... :D

Evidently it's not the way to go.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Choral music is very revealing test material, and I usually include some, but time did not permit.

While I have always claimed to dislike any kind of jazz save one LP, while at ParadigmDawg's house listening to his choice of demo music on his Studio 100's powered by whatever flavor of overkill that he has over there, I found that I liked it. That demo didn't fail to impress even though it was a type of music I had never enjoyed before. I'm starting to think that I had never heard it on the right speakers.

In closing I did recently here a very nice speaker on my trip to England at my sister and brother in laws house. It was small ATC bookshelf selling at roughly $1000 per pair. The speaker was beautifully voiced, although stated rolling off around 90 Hz because of its small size. However its tonal balance and articulation were superb.
I'm not posting this as a personal attack, so please don't take it as such but,....

While you have made audio an avocation for a long time and are a wealth of information, this thread exists because you dumped on the Paradigm speakers when they were compared with B&W speakers. I don't recall seeing a list of the music played during the audition but I suspect it wasn't a particularly broad range of styles and as you posted, time didn't allow playing choral music and that's something you enjoy. Now, I have said that we all have a different perception of what we see, feel and hear but listening to one main type of music is a valid test for someone who listens to that type but not for people who never listen to it. You have called Rock music 'dreadful', you just said you have never enjoyed Jazz and that means you should probably post a disclaimer on any opinions about how a speaker sounds. The fact that you don't enjoy much of what the rest of us do, means that you can't have an unbiased opinion of any speakers that considered good for those musical styles. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to hear anything but Classical music, just as there's nothing wrong with wanting to hear only Rock, Jazz, Blues or any other genre. However, I have to argue with you for consider these speakers terrible, based on listening to a few selections, without necessarily having taken the time to re-position the speakers for their optimum sonic performance. I wouldn't be the person to ask about whether a speaker is the best for Rap (I don't listen to Rap or Hip-Hop) but I listen to, and enjoy, a wide variety of musical styles because I have a very open mind when it comes to music. A great Classical speaker doesn't sound the same as a great rock speaker, a great Jazz speaker or a great Rap speaker. The styles don't necessarily have the same audience and they definitely don't need to have the same tonal characteristics, even though the same instruments are often played. This needs to be considered when offering an opinion on a speaker.

Which Jazz LP is it that you do like?
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Now I like the point you are making here.

I have had no less than 10 people tell me that they didn't like Jazz as I was getting ready to show off my system. Every single one of them said that they liked Jazz after hearing it on my set up.
I'm not posting this as a personal attack, so please don't take it as such but,....

While you have made audio an avocation for a long time and are a wealth of information, this thread exists because you dumped on the Paradigm speakers when they were compared with B&W speakers. I don't recall seeing a list of the music played during the audition but I suspect it wasn't a particularly broad range of styles and as you posted, time didn't allow playing choral music and that's something you enjoy. Now, I have said that we all have a different perception of what we see, feel and hear but listening to one main type of music is a valid test for someone who listens to that type but not for people who never listen to it. You have called Rock music 'dreadful', you just said you have never enjoyed Jazz and that means you should probably post a disclaimer on any opinions about how a speaker sounds. The fact that you don't enjoy much of what the rest of us do, means that you can't have an unbiased opinion of any speakers that considered good for those musical styles. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to hear anything but Classical music, just as there's nothing wrong with wanting to hear only Rock, Jazz, Blues or any other genre. However, I have to argue with you for consider these speakers terrible, based on listening to a few selections, without necessarily having taken the time to re-position the speakers for their optimum sonic performance. I wouldn't be the person to ask about whether a speaker is the best for Rap (I don't listen to Rap or Hip-Hop) but I listen to, and enjoy, a wide variety of musical styles because I have a very open mind when it comes to music. A great Classical speaker doesn't sound the same as a great rock speaker, a great Jazz speaker or a great Rap speaker. The styles don't necessarily have the same audience and they definitely don't need to have the same tonal characteristics, even though the same instruments are often played. This needs to be considered when offering an opinion on a speaker.

Which Jazz LP is it that you do like?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't really care if anyone likes my set up or not.
None of us are like that.
Tell me you don't enjoy demoing your system and watching people's faces.
You've done a nice job of making it all look good too.
How many hours you think you spent in the attic running wires?
You care, we all do. ;)

You know, you could build a chase wall that is essentially a big fabric covered OC 705 sound panel. The way to do it would be to step it in as much as 4" from your corridors to make it look like an architectural design as opposed to a mistake. Run it up to a height of 9' and cap it with matching crown.

Just sayin'. :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm curious, do you implement any type of EQ or balance adjustments to compensate for your assymetric hearing, or do you look for whatever best compromises between both ears?
Pre-Amp sections used to have ganged tone controls. The forward half of the knob was for the left channel and the rearward half of the knob was for the right channel.
The difference in my hearing isn't just from me listening to my system, it was found during an actual hearing test. I know what caused it and it's not drastic, but it does keep me from using a telephone with both ears.

"or do you look for whatever best compromises between both ears?"

You're not referring to my mind, are you? Better not.:D

The only time I use any tone control is when I play vinyl and almost never for anything else. My controls and switches are clean and track well, the controls and switches are all passive (I found this out when I turned off the power amp I was using and the music kept playing). Voices are centered and stable and I have my speakers placed off-center so the left side has some early reflections but the right doesn't. I built my speakers and have a way to adjust the tweeters, if needed and have run sweep tests with Room EQ Wizard, so I know their response is very similar. My speakers have no major peaks in a range that would cause the problems seen here and the impedance/phase plots are a lot more smooth because I intentionally avoided allowing the Fs of the tweeter to be involved.

We haven't touched on psycho-acoustics here and I think we should, in another thread. It matters and it generally explains why someone can listen to bad sound for a long time and think it's the best for them- it's the familiarity, not the actual sound, that makes us like what we have and not like something else when we hear it for the first time. It's also what causes more at 8KHz to sound like the source is directly above us and 4KHz to sound like it's far to the side it's heard.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Which Jazz LP is it that you do like?
You're confusing me with the good Dr.

I like this old Charlie Ventura album.



... but maybe I'm biased because of the Mickey Spillane album cover and that New Orleans feeling I get hearing When the Saints Go Marching In. Maybe I like this album because I bought it from a 70 year old Jewish Golfer who likes to wear white belts. I just like it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Now I like the point you are making here.

I have had no less than 10 people tell me that they didn't like Jazz as I was getting ready to show off my system. Every single one of them said that they liked Jazz after hearing it on my set up.
One of the things that makes Jazz what it is, is improvisation and many people don't like it when they can't recognize the song they're hearing. To them, it sounds like random notes that have no relationship to each other and for some of them, it's because they don't play an instrument but even a lot of musicians don't like one genre, or another. I tend to not listen to much Jazz with solo trumpet, mainly because of Maynard Ferguson and the clones who tried so hard to sound like him when he was trying to hit all of the really high notes. In other cases, it's because the way it was recorded just irritates me. Some, I like a lot and it's more because of the actual music but if I don't like it, I won't listen to it. I like Brian Lynch's tone because it's more mellow but his phrasing is more important. The fact that we grew up around the corner from each other doesn't really matter much, though.

I play guitar but for Jazz, I like piano trios and quartets, mostly.

If you want to reinforce their dislike of Jazz, play some Eric Dolphy, or something like that.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not posting this as a personal attack, so please don't take it as such but,....

While you have made audio an avocation for a long time and are a wealth of information, this thread exists because you dumped on the Paradigm speakers when they were compared with B&W speakers. I don't recall seeing a list of the music played during the audition but I suspect it wasn't a particularly broad range of styles and as you posted, time didn't allow playing choral music and that's something you enjoy. Now, I have said that we all have a different perception of what we see, feel and hear but listening to one main type of music is a valid test for someone who listens to that type but not for people who never listen to it. You have called Rock music 'dreadful', you just said you have never enjoyed Jazz and that means you should probably post a disclaimer on any opinions about how a speaker sounds. The fact that you don't enjoy much of what the rest of us do, means that you can't have an unbiased opinion of any speakers that considered good for those musical styles. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to hear anything but Classical music, just as there's nothing wrong with wanting to hear only Rock, Jazz, Blues or any other genre. However, I have to argue with you for consider these speakers terrible, based on listening to a few selections, without necessarily having taken the time to re-position the speakers for their optimum sonic performance. I wouldn't be the person to ask about whether a speaker is the best for Rap (I don't listen to Rap or Hip-Hop) but I listen to, and enjoy, a wide variety of musical styles because I have a very open mind when it comes to music. A great Classical speaker doesn't sound the same as a great rock speaker, a great Jazz speaker or a great Rap speaker. The styles don't necessarily have the same audience and they definitely don't need to have the same tonal characteristics, even though the same instruments are often played. This needs to be considered when offering an opinion on a speaker.

Which Jazz LP is it that you do like?
I would've thought that a great speaker is a great speaker, regardless of the type of music being played. I like all kinds of music, but I think classical (or any other acoustical performance) is the most revealing when it comes to judging a speakers performance. Since the sound of electronic/electric instruments is "artificial", for lack of a better word, it's harder to judge the quality of the reproduction of its sound, as delivered from one loudspeaker to another loudspeaker.

Plus, lets face it, how much rock/pop music in the digital age has been recorded/mastered for SQ? Much of the distortion heard, is by design. So, start with a poor recording and hope that a loudspeaker will magically transform it?

So no, I don't buy the different speakers for different music argument.

I'd rather have a speaker that can reproduce anyrecording accurately. That is, if WAF would allow that kind of expenditure and the accompanying room treatments...
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
"I selected the B & W 803S speakers for comparison, because they were close by. Price for the Paradigms at that dealer $2,500, the B & W $4,500."

Not exactly comparing apples with apples, though. Regardless, some less expensive speakers can and do reproduce more faithfully than what you described.

"2). The mid range was very forward and not well balanced. The trumpets on the excellent Telarc recording were all lip and no bell. They did not approximate the tonal balance of real trumpets. The strings had a steely quality."

That probably goes along with the 3KHz peak and the dip just below it.

"3) HF was harsh, which contributed to the poor sound of the massed high strings.

4). The speakers failed to produce a believable perspective. I had sound being thrust at me. I like the sound to appear to come form behind the plane of the speakers. The speakers failed to give any illusion of depth.

The B & W, while not having the deepest bass, did nothing to offend, were well balanced, and gave a believable acoustic perspective with depth.

I only had a chance to evaluate that one piece, as paying customers turned up. It was easy to sell them on the B & W, speakers, fortunately the dealer had a barely used pair in perfect condition and they were an easy sell at $500 over the Paradigms.

I doubt the graphs presented show the half of the story, I think a waterfall plot would show a boat load of trouble in the band pass crossover region, especially the upper one.

Now if you look at the specs of this speaker, you see design choices I have leaned in the world of hard knocks, to go out of my way to avoid.

1). A passive crossover below 350 Hz. I don't care how much you spend on caps and inductors, like the banks and IAG, they are just too big. They create a nightmare of a of a load. Also it is impossible to keep the bass tight, and I suspect this is a contributing cause of the bass ripple.

2). Band pass crossover points too close together. In this case 300 Hz and 2 kHz, not even three octaves. If you are going to make a three way you want around a three to four octave spread, and you need to get the crossover points out of the speech discrimination range. In other words, they need to develop a mid range that can be crossed over at 4 kHz or higher."

I was surprised to see the Fs come into play in the Paradigm- that goes against the 2.5-3 octave rule of thumb for crossover design.

"The next issue, is that I only evaluate speakers using minimalist recordings of natural instruments. I know what those sound like. I attend live concerts every chance I get. Also I have made hundreds of recordings of live concerts. Musicians at playback know what their instrument and those of their colleagues sound like. I have had many a musician, on hearing my monitors on playback say "that sounds just like my instrument." That's they way it should be."


This is mainly familiarity, IMO. We all recognize certain sounds instantly and when an audio system recreates the sound with a great degree of accuracy, it's a great experience. Too bad the marketing departments have taken over.

"Now music in the popular domain, is usually mixed on speakers far from flat, and you always mix to your monitors. So I often wonder if this fact has a great deal to do with the persistence of speakers that are far from accurate."


Music isn't recorded to sound real. Even back when radio was new, they found ways to make the sound "jump" out of the speakers. The songs that got peoples' attention sold better and that hasn't changed one bit, even with all of the changes in technology. Now, a lot of music is mixed so it sounds good through ear buds and an iPod. There's a major lack of dynamics and tonal balance, MP3 is the preferred means of storage and according to recent polls of white collar people in a moderately well-off range, sound quality is hanging off of the rear seat's backrest and convenience is driving the bus. Classical music is different. It's rooted in tradition and that can mean that it's not allowed to cater to the "pop" crowd, in the simplest form of the word. Classical music isn't supposed to jump from the speakers, it's supposed to recreate an experience. Some Jazz recordings were made wiht the same intent but even those have a wide variation in sound. Most Jazz and Classical labels have their own "sound", as you know and this is one of the things that makes someone prefer one to another. EMI and Telefunken have recorded many of the same pieces but the sound is different. CTI, Capitol and Blue Note had totally different sounds but that is usually lost on the casual listener. Pop music is about getting the most people excited and selling things. Unless a band records live in a studio or venue and the music is mixed with attention to where the musicians were positioned, it's all an illusion. One person can record all of the tracks, play all of the instruments and make it sound like a band through technological tricks but it's still not a real experience.

"I have noticed among friends and associates, that classical music lovers choose from a very select group of speakers, and more often than not they are British. It is not generally recognized in the US that classical music in Britain has a huge following. There are major concerts around the country daily and well attended. The Proms in the Summer go on for two months, with a major concert seven days a week. Many days there are multiple concerts. The concerts are sold out, including the standing room in the Royal Albert Hall. The offerings are highly diverse and wide ranging.

This is I believe is a major contributing factor in speakers of British design sounding the way they do. Speakers to be sold in the UK have to be able to a decent job of reproducing the BBC concert broadcasts and especially the Proms. If a speaker can't do a believable job in this arena, it won't have appreciable market penetration in the UK.

This is a very different state of affairs than what we have over here, were I believe speakers are auditioned with a very different choice of music.

I still maintain that good speakers are far and few between, and the exception."


British speakers have been called "dry", because they're well damped. German speakers have their own signature, Danish theirs and less than before, American speakers could be considered to have a West Coast, East Coast or Midwest sound and Japanese were called "Boom-Crash". East Coast was more similar to European, West Coast was more bass-heavy and had a hotter treble but still a very present midrange.

You mention RAH- that can support many types of music because the acoustics are great. British speakers are made to sound real because the people demand that, not extreme levels of anything. Unfortunately, many people here are impressed by marketing and wowed by anything that is excessive.

Good speakers are all over, but 'good' is just the middle, in terms of quality. Great speakers are the ones that are hard to find and cost doesn't necessarily determine greatness, as you know well.
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I'd rather have a speaker that can reproduce anyrecording accurately. That is, if WAF would allow that kind of expenditure and the accompanying room treatments...
We all would, but it doesn't exist.

All speakers make trade-offs. Those trade-offs will prioritize one thing over another. How your priorities compare to those of the designer will effect how the speaker sounds.

Yes. We all want a speaker that beams a 100% accurate signal directly to our ears no matter where we are in complete phase. Barring that, perhaps one that beams a 100% accurate signal in 360x360 degrees with unlimited air movement.

The former is most similar to headphones, and the latter is impossible.

You want all your sound to come from one emitter, but there's no single emitter that can do it. So we split it up 2-3 ways, but now you need to deal with crossover-issues. Best we put contiguous sounds all from one driver: but which contiguous? Male voices? Female voices? Bass guitar?

And since they are not 360, how many degrees should they be? And what about baffle? In a perfect world we have an infinite baffle: but that's not feasible either.

Perfect cannot be done, and there's no single way to do imperfect. Which imperfect is best will depends on your preferences.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So, this presents an interesting quandary. If I test my ears and discover their faults and sensitivities, do I try to replicate what I hear today at a live concert, or what I believe it sounded like before the "wear and tear".
It would be interesting to get thorough hearing tests done, but would it really be of siginificant use in deciding what is good vs bad SQ?
The live concert can't be recreated at home. The acoustical space isn't the same, the sound isn't coming from the same places and a live gig is a combination of the direct sound from the instruments/amps and the PA. Also, producing music isn't the same as re-producing it.

Knowing about any variations form normal in hearing can explain why a speaker's sound is perceived to lack something. For someone who had their ears blown out by hunting, serving in the military, playing in a band or working as a carpenter, the range where they have a deficiency can be somewhat compensated for by either using proper EQ or finding speakers that compliment their ears, if they don't want to add to their signal chain or systems' complexity.
 
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