The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I went ahead and pissed in the campfire. changed the total

Oh no you didn't....

Now the polls (60 total members) are in favor of higher priced AVRs sounding as good as Separates.

We can't have that. People might be saying that the guys on AH are "AVR this, AVR that!"

 

[Truthslayer]

If we include integrated amps sold in Japan, ranked by $ per Watt, Luxman's and Denon's seem to be on top, what are the other brands that make expensive integrated on $/Watt basis?

For real separates, I know sky is the limit, like Bugatti, Lamborghini, Aston Martin etc.

Even if we ignore their much lower price points/brackets in general, I am not really sure integrated amps should be considered separates.

They are like SUVs, automobiles that are neither sports nor utilities.

Hegel H590

 

[Mikado463]

If we include integrated amps sold in Japan, ranked by $ per Watt, Luxman's and Denon's seem to be on top, what are the other brands that make expensive integrated on $/Watt basis?

For real separates, I know sky is the limit, like Bugatti, Lamborghini, Aston Martin etc.

Even if we ignore their much lower price points/brackets in general, I am not really sure integrated amps should be considered separates.

They are like SUVs, automobiles that are neither sports nor utilities.

Esoteric, Accuphase, PASS, Ayre, Bel Canto, Technics .............

 

[PENG]

Luxman, Yamaha, and Marantz all have $8,000 (or more MSRP) Integrated Amps these days. The MSRP definitely helps their status of being "Separates".

I really don't get these $8K integrated amps. I have a friend who owns $2K speakers and wants an $8K Luxman Integrated Amp.

Yes, I included Luxman, but obviously missed Yamaha and Marantz, the usual suspects, but I emphasized $ per 1 Watt. Will double check, may be they do have some $5-6K,25-50 W amps too.

 

[Bucknekked]

Oh no you didn't....

Now the polls (60 total members) are in favor of higher priced AVRs sounding as good as Separates.

We can't have that. People might be saying that the guys on AH are "AVR this, AVR that!"

@PENG made the comparison of integrated amps are like SUVs: a compromise vehicle. Good metaphor.
Except if an integrated amp is an SUV, then what in the Wild Wild World of Sports is an AVR? (in car comparisons).

I can buy high priced separates are like fine motor vehicles (Ferrari, Aston Martin etc). Good compare to start the thread. But, I'm not coming up with the right motor vehicle for the AVR.
To be a car it would have to be:
1. Overly complicated with a dashboard nobody can figure out at first glance
2. Have too many features to list
3. Have stickers all over the glass and body panels
4. Constantly being called crap by the auto enthusiasts
5 In point of fact be a great car and once set up, easy to drive and love

 

[PENG]

Just check, based on manufacturer website list price and specified output power into 8 ohms, I ended up with the top 4 below:


1)Luxman L-590AXII (not sure if it is their highest price integrated amp on $/W)........$9000/30W = $300/Watt
2)Passlabs INT-25..............................................................................................................$7,250/25W = $290/Watt
3)Denon PM-SX..................................................................................................................$7,000/50W = $140/Watt
4)Yamaha A-S3000............................................................................................................$8,000/100W = $80/Watt
5)Marantz PM-10...............................................................................................................$8,000/200W = $40/Watt

All of the above are pure analog, not video no digital (DAC, ADC, DSP etc..)

Are there more expensive ones, analog only integrated amps based on list price/Watt?

So far I see a huge gap between the top 3 and the rest.

In general class D amps such as Bel Canto's would be at disadvantage because of their much higher output.

Still, as soon as we turn to real separates, preamp/power amp, prices jump in order of magnitudes. Integrated amps are like AVRs on diet except the high price ones like the ones listed and mentioned by Mikado463 and Truthslayer.., that's just me obviously..

 

[PENG]

@PENG made the comparison of integrated amps are like SUVs: a compromise vehicle. Good metaphor.
Except if an integrated amp is an SUV, then what in the Wild Wild World of Sports is an AVR? (in car comparisons).

I can buy high priced separates are like fine motor vehicles (Ferrari, Aston Martin etc). Good compare to start the thread. But, I'm not coming up with the right motor vehicle for the AVR.
To be a car it would have to be:
1. Overly complicated with a dashboard nobody can figure out at first glance
2. Have too many features to list
3. Have stickers all over the glass and body panels
4. Constantly being called crap by the auto enthusiasts
5 In point of fact be a great car and once set up, easy to drive and love

Funny but true, though I would think most Hyundai, Honda, Subaru, GM, Ford small SUVs e.g. CRV, Escape, Forester, RAV4, Equinox, CX5 might fall into the AVR category, they are jammed packed when fully loaded and have just about everything you need build in for multiple purposes. Lots of things to go wrong and/or need recall fixes, but could last for a reasonably long time if adequate care is provided, such as external fans for AVR and don't go crazy on the volume, or don't get silly and take the thing to do real off-roading.

 

[HTfreak2004]

Is that clean watts for $300 each or $300 for clipping watts

If it’s clipping watts damn that’s cheap. I will have to drive my Anthem MCA 50 into clipping to see what kinda value in performance I have been missing

Do you guys think I should bi-wire my mains before I clip my amp or reverse polarity the wires?

I thought AcuDefTechGuy wrote a review somewhere on the benefits of speaker wires arranged in reverse polarity as the best way to get the most out of a clipping amp!

Regardless I never would have dreamed up this concept as superior for audio or HT but it worked. Now my mains produce 10 hz at 105 db with only 7 “ drivers

 

[VonMagnum]

I thought it said $300 PER WATT. Try $30,000 for 100 watts.... (or in this case $9000 for 30 watts)

I bought Carver TFM-35x amps back in the day. It was more like $550 for 250 into 8 or 350 into 4. Fantastic amps. Still using them. Bought the first one in 1995.

 

[Pogre]

Kind of a random question but I didn't wanna start a thread. For some surround content I can choose between Dolby Digital+ or Dolby Digital+ +Dolby Surround. What's the difference?

 

[Mikado463]

Except if an integrated amp is an SUV, then what in the Wild Wild World of Sports is an AVR? (in car comparisons).

Yugo perhaps ...........

 

[VonMagnum]

Kind of a random question but I didn't wanna start a thread. For some surround content I can choose between Dolby Digital+ or Dolby Digital+ +Dolby Surround. What's the difference?

Dolby Surround refers to the upmixer chosen (if any) to use. Without it, you get bed channels only. You might also see DD+ + Neural X, for example.

 

[lovinthehd]

Dolby Surround refers to the upmixer chosen (if any) to use. Without it, you get bed channels only. You might also see DD+ + Neural X, for example.

Altho the DD+ may have Atmos metadata already....

 

[VonMagnum]

Altho the DD+ may have Atmos metadata already....

If it did (at least on D&M AVRs) it would say "Atmos" in there somewhere (forget exactly how it puts it, but it's like "DD+ + Dolby Surround/Atmos) or just Dolby Atmos (I think I've seen both crop up sometimes and I was never sure what triggered the "/" version. That might have been for PCM/MAT stuff. I'd have to look at some examples to see).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If it did (at least on D&M AVRs) it would say "Atmos" in there somewhere (forget exactly how it puts it, but it's like "DD+ + Dolby Surround/Atmos) or just Dolby Atmos (I think I've seen both crop up sometimes and I was never sure what triggered the "/" version. That might have been for PCM/MAT stuff. I'd have to look at some examples to see).

Yeah Netflix has the DD+/Atmos movies that have no overhead sounds even though the Info screen says “Atmos”. I call this the Netflix Fake Atmos.

 

[VonMagnum]

Dolby Fakemos?

 

[AVUser001]

wasnt part of this thread earlier..,but wanted to chime in, with my thoughts, for what its worth..,

There's pros & cons between the AVR vs separates route, as has been elaborately discussed many times in this forum. If cost is not an issue, separates will win over , not necessarily from sq perspective, but from a reliability perspective given the compromise they make in the AVR design(crowded amps primarily)..,but for most cost will continue to be a factor and using AVR as pre/pro+PowerAmp is a viable alternative, esp if you're able to just use the Preamp section and/or disengage the amp section of AVR. That might allow for tech refreshing the cheaper AVRs more often and leverage new features coming up , every ~2 yrs..for eg upcoming HDMI 2.1, 8K support etc..,keeping your power amps.
Separates, by design should allow for a better fit-for-purpose engineering design and hq components that last longer(atleast theoretically), but what we may be seeing is AVRs , given the economies of scale, leveraging the same or similar hq components and offer them at a lower price point ,so sq may not be significantly any different...leaving only the crowded design in AVR as a drawback (assuming if it supplies enough power for your needs or complementing with power amp) vs separates. Maybe mitigated to extent with cooling fans ..

In short, both have a place..and I'd choose what works for me, considering all the factors called out in this thread(budget, refresh cycle, power requirements etc).

 

[RichB]

The AVR crowding ,may lead to other design choices like protection schemes that severely limit power into 4 ohms loads.
The goals are also different. A dedicated amplifier design may be to provide power into load whereas an AVR is to maximize reliability (faults in the field).

Amp designers are using optical coupling and, more recently, SHARC processing for protection.

- Rich

 

[panteragstk]

Amp designers are using optical coupling and, more recently, SHARC processing for protection.

- Rich

Wonder how many purists complain about the addition of those components?

 

[David Harper]

IMO the way to go is use a good AVR as a preamp (mine is a Yammy Aventage AVR) and get a good amp (mine is a Schiit Vidar) and have the amp drive a really good speaker (mine are maggie LRS). This way you can enjoy the benefits of an AVR (DVD, bluray, 4K, streaming, cable TV, netflix, etc.) and still have audiophile sq when you want it. Preamps do not have sound quality despite all the audiophile nonsense.