The “Sound” of receivers…

WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Rob Babcock said:
That opens a whole 'nuther can of worms, Chris. Do we want music with great taste or music that tastes great? As a younger man, I wanted the unvarnished truth. As I get older...well, that's still what I want, but I can at least understand the guys that want a euphonically colored, prettified version of the sound.
I prefer what is called for in a given circumstance. For listening entertainment, give me glossed-over sound. For accuracy-critical situations, give me high accuracy. Since I am not a recording engineer, glossed-over is most useful too me.

-Chris
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Yep. I guess I like accuacy as a starting point, and some means (like tone controls) to diddle with the sound if desired.

However, going back to that Dunleavy article, I suppose my dipoles would not be quite accurate by his lights...so maybe that's my subjectivist Achilles heel! (Sssh...don't tell anyone!)
 
Last edited:
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Rip Van Woofer said:
Yep. I guess I like accuacy as a starting point, and some means (like tone controls) to diddle with the sound if desired.

However, going back to that Dunleavy article, I suppose my dipoles would not be quite accurate by his lights...so maybe that's my subjectivist Achilles heel! (Sssh...don't tell anyone!)
Well, I am a horrible offender then. I use omnipolar speakers(Dunlavy is not a fan!), and I voiced them specifically to sound best on my favorite reference recordings. Accurate? Hardly. Percieved accuracy? Extremely high, at least too me. :D

Get those MDR-7506 if you need a ruthless and accurate reference. Just don't count on enjoying these things with most music.

-Chris
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Rip Van Woofer said:
I certainly do not disagree that this is a hobby, and has a good deal of luxe associated with it. It does depend on the availability of some discretionary income. And that it is all too easy to take it way too seriously!
Sure, discretionary income is the first thing to go when you have an incurable indulgence like this hobby.

However the main problem I have (and others of my ilk share) is when nonscientific claims are made to convince me that I need to have a piece of equipment (often at considerable expense) because of its manifest sonic superiority, and that I have "tin ears" or am a "soulless techie" if I dare to disagree on scientific grounds.
Scientific or otherwise, claims are simply that, claims. They are no different from claims about growing hair. Claims about increasing the length of you know what. Claims about reducing 30 lbs in 2 weeks. The "sciences" behind such claims can be pseudo or real, depending on whose VALUE perceptors are recieving them. We live in a free market economy where product claims compete to gain market patronage. If they don't convince you as you are free not to, others are. You may have a more scientific bent while others are more romantic and hopeful. If you are offended to be called "tin ears" and "soulless techie," there are others who are likewise offended to be called "foolish" and "delusional." Now as to which group of sensitive people deserve to be offended more, I see no point offending either in this highly personal hobby.

It is that aspect of the High End that ticks some of us off! It is, to put it bluntly, mere snobbery gussied up with pseudoscience and sophistry.
If the brochure on a Rolls Royce Camargue say they are superior to any BMW or Lexus, you can just tell that to any marine. But like so-called hi-end cars, the hi-end Audiophilic hobby is a luxury. Heck, the hobby itself is a luxury. Like any form of luxury that indulges the senses, snobbery is everywhere, and is a natural in it. Science has no place in a luxury indulgence. And extravagance is ALWAYS a put-off among those who can only dream of them.

Further, I think that things like "musicality" and "emotional involvment" are the province of composers and musicians, not our gear or those who make it. Many who take a highly subjective stance to our hobby seem to be confused on that point.
"Musicality" and "emotional invovlement" are never the province of our gears or those who make them. They are, however, precisely within the province of the LISTENER's subjective peceptions. Let us not confuse between the gears we use in this hobby, and the hobby itself, which is entirely an indulgent past time to the listening pleasures of the LISTENER. So if someone ecstatically declares that what goes into his ears are musical and emotionally involving, that's his personal perception that makes an honest personal assessment of his gears, whether that is a Yamaha or a Meridian. The listener has his own personal reasons why his Meridian sound better to him than his former mass-fi gears. What sounds musical and emotionally involving to one may not be to another. Afterall, earphones on discman that I find rubbish can be emotionally involving to some people. But I don't question their preferrence.

Basically, my take on audio gear is simple: it should be as much as possible a transparent window to the original recording. In technical terms, the output signal should match the input signal as closely as possible. Only then can it be as faithful as possible to the original intent of the artists whose music we treasure. (And if it sounds like crap, it's not the gears' fault!) Nearly all modern purely electronic gear passes this test, regardless of price. Once upon a time, that was not the case. Speakers and other transducers, so far, do not. Features, build quality, ergonomics, and the intangibles that add up to "luxury" are what a rational person pays the extra money for. Where this passes into the realm of the obscenely self-indulgent is up to the individual!

Further, there is no unmeasurable or unknown "x factor" that accounts for audible differences. Once upon a time in the early days of hi-fi, measurement equipment and protocols were indeed inadequate to the task of tracking down aubible differences, but that is no longer the case.
No quarrel with some of your points. Hi-fidelity home playback is simply transparent reproduction of a recording. Unfortunately in the hobby, Hi-fidelity assumes a pursuit, a quest. Not surprisingly, without an end in sight. The output signals are never really as close to the original signals. The original intent of the musicians are hardly conveyed as they were intended. The quest becomes illusory. Like I said, you can only approach, but never get there. There are simply too many variables in the playback reproduction chain, from the records to the speakers and room accoustics that many claims can enter the road to the Hi-Fi objective. I don't know which one can claim their signals are closer to what went in. But for sure, and again, this is a perception borne by past experience, those that have fewer design and production compromises have a better go at it than those whose primary objectives are to make their SRPs mass market friendly. I cannot declare with any certainty that there "is no unmeasurable or unknown" aspect along the quest. I don't know if they are indeed unmeasurable enough that ears cannot discern. I certainly am not certain if measurements are even relevant in this hobby. What has oscillisocpes got to do with enjoying a record? I am not sure that there is nothing more than resistance, capacitance and inductance in a cable. Afterall, for a time, scientists thought that electrons, protons and neutrons were the smallest particle ever. Or that Pluto was the last planet in the system. Some people would indict me that I have a closed mind. On the contrary, I think I (and my ilk) have so much an open mind not to embrace such a debilitating conviction that would totally exclude unverified options to limit possibilities and constrain any further enjoyment in this hobby. That's precisely my objection to the DBT results. Embracing its statistical probabilities as the sole truth closes the path beyond zip cords and $300 receivers. It effectively ends the hi-fi quest right there on the doorstep of zip cords and $300 receivers. It ends a quests where, more often than not, is as much an enjoyable indulgence in the pursuit, as reaching the objective itself, in steps and stages that are called upgrades. Not so much the bells and whistles, but the perceived sonic improvements.

So, if you (not "you" specifically AV_phile or anyone else here but "y'all" in general) want and can afford to spend five figures for a Levinson amp, more power (pun?) to you. Just do not try to tell me that you can hear a difference, beyond a shadow of a doubt, from my Adcom; or that I am somehow inadequate or petty if I disagree. And if you are also trying to convince me to spend my money thus, skepticism is the only prudent and rational stance...even if I finally say, "oh, what the hell, it looks cool and it's only money!"
Fair enough I should say. Skeptism can go both ways. Your skepticsm about the voodoo science of exotic brands is no different from the skeptism we have about statistical "all cables and amps sound the same". And in the same vein that you would not want us to tell you that our Mark Levinson sounds better than your Adcom, don't tell us who DO HEAR a DIFFERENCE that your DBT's statistical preponderance IS the only truth. Suggesting unmistakably that those who had heard a difference are imagining it, deluding themselves, and are WRONG in their indulgent perceptions. Such an imposition either way defeats the very unique and personal subjctive indulgence that this hobby is about.
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Scientific or otherwise, claims are simply that, claims....The "sciences" behind such claims can be pseudo or real, depending on whose VALUE perceptors are recieving them...You may have a more scientific bent while others are more romantic and hopeful.
That, I suppose, is why this audio tempest (in a teapot, face it!) will be ever with us. It is ultimately a contest between irreconcilable worldviews, like atheists vs. believers, liberals and conservatives, reason vs. romanticism.

Still: science has proven to be the most powerful method for understanding, explaining and even manipulating the physical world. The technologies that make our indulgent hobby possible are firmly and solely built on science. Electrons and air molecules do not respond to romanticsm!

(Geez, the poor guy who started this thread must have long ago fled, screaming...!) :D
 
Last edited:
b_panther_g

b_panther_g

Audioholic
By Rip Van Woofer
“(Geez, the poor guy who started this thread must have long ago fled, screaming...!)”



Not fled…Just lurking…

The thread went a different direction than I expected. But it’s a really good discussion so I enjoy reading it.:D

In truth, I sometimes like to just sit back and read these message boards. It's amazing what you can learn if you just listen (or in this case – read).


Later,
B
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Rip Van Woofer said:
That, I suppose, is why this audio tempest (in a teapot, face it!) will be ever with us. It is ultimately a contest between irreconcilable worldviews, like atheists vs. believers, liberals and conservatives, reason vs. romanticism.

Still: science has proven to be the most powerful method for understanding, explaining and even manipulating the physical world. The technologies that make our indulgent hobby possible are firmly and solely built on science. Electrons and air molecules do not respond to romanticsm!

(Geez, the poor guy who started this thread must have long ago fled, screaming...!) :D
I've never doubted that. I just don't see its relevance in this hobby. Why there has to be a contest in the pursuit of a personal indulgence escapes me entirely.
 
D

Dessayfan

Enthusiast
Speakers and levels

In an "average" hi-fi listening room - assuming you have a closed-door environment - you "might" indeed be able to tell which amplifier/receiver is active. Depends a lot on the speakers - and their impedence. If the speaker is rated at 4 ohms, it needs a lot of "oomph" to perform well - and that speaker will perform well for all amps that are powerful enough. But don't put those speakers with 50-watt amps! You'll have more trouble than you want.
Also - unless you have very sensitive sound meters (not all of them are) you may not be able to accurately set up the various amplifiers. Remember than just a few dbs in sound difference can make your ears "hear" differences in sound - won't be brighter or darker, but your ears will pick up on that, and give you false positive (or negative) readings.
So - can you tell the differences in amps/receivers? Yes - and no. I personally tried to determine the "brightness" of receivers earlier this year, and only made myself crazy (craziER) in the process. I finally bought an Onkyo 701 - for its power and features - but since have been told that it is too "bright." Huh? Well, now, I heard HK, NAD, Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer and Rotel. Sigh. Of all of them, only the NAD turned me off - not because of its "sound," but because there was a persistent hum coming from it. The salesman said that was a problem with some NADs - hmmm. . .indeed!
If you look under "speakers" on the forum, you will find that I'm having a beastly time with my Polk RTi6 speakers - which I find bright and tiring to listen to. Is it the speakers? Is it that "bright" Onkyo? Well, now I'm in the midst of trying to figure out the cause - but I suspect the speakers, not the amp.
As part of my on-going experiment, I borrowed a friend's B & W 705 speakers (yum, yum!!!) - and they sounded simply terrific with the "bright" Onkyo. But I can't afford them. Sigh. More to come. . .
 
NewYorkJosh

NewYorkJosh

Enthusiast
There are more things in heaven
and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. ..
. Hamlet by William Shakespeare: Act 1. Scene V

[B]"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." --Albert Einstein[/B]

I am troubled by the assertions - common to this forum, that double blind testing has proven the inaudibility of differences among amplifiers. I, personally, have, on many occaisions, swapped amplifiers and receivers in and out of a high quality system and have heard differences large and small almost every time. I'm not saying that the amps didn't sound essentially alike on a superficial level - but once settled into the music apparent differences in subtle but important qualities like dynamics, soundstage width and depth, image specificity, rhythmic drive and timbral accuracy were audible. I don't propose that I'm particularly a golden eared person - although I do care a lot about audio quality and play with audio gear a good deal. Since the audibility of amplifier equipment is such a regular and familiar attribute for me (and for many other admittedly audiophile folk I know) I am forced to consider the following possible conclusions:
1) Every instance of what I (and what many others) hear is pure placibo effect.
2) The methodolog(ies) used in double blind listening tests is flawed or incomplete.

Excuse me if I come to the second conclusion. I find it credulous that folks feel that something as etherial and subjective as audibility and perception can be considered scientifically known and proved - especially given the limited set of attributes usually tested (THD, IMD, power). The fact is that there are many many aspects of amplifier performance that are not routinely tested that have been shown to have significant audible effects. See Daniel Cheever's thesis on amplifier audiblity testing methodology (http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf)

And then, tested exactly how? The AES lists a specific methodological standard for testing loudspeakers (http://www.aes.org/standards/b_pub/aes20-1996.pdf) but none for testing amplifiers - presumeably because they have already dismissively determined that there is no point. However, even the standard for speaker testing says nothing about such important factors as listening selections or length of sample listening period. The fact is there is no consistency among double blind listening tests in terms of such important psychological factors as listening selection and length of sample.

Given these problems, it's more than credulous, it's fatuous to invoke science to dismiss arguements for the audibility of differences among amplifiers as Rip Van Woofer did:.
Rip Van Woofer said:
Why anyone would think that audio (an engineering discipline based firmly on science) is somehow exempt from the scientific method mystifies me.
Mr. Van Woofer misses the point. It isn't that, by declaring the audibility of amplifiers, we reject the scientific method. Rather we reject the conclusions reached by the current spate of non-rigorously performed tests. Science has historically embraced many incorrect conclusions over the years, from phlogiston to the lumiferous aether. The fact that a current theory has some science to back it up isn't worthless - but it's only worth the quality of the science that it's based on. I haven't seen anything convincing at all in the science that the current AES theory that amplifier differences are inaudible.

It all comes down to the double-blind tests. The problem with the current methods of double blind testing (other than the lack of standards or consistency) is that they take music listening out of context. In an environment where test subjects are listening for differences, rather than experiencing the music emotionally, the test becomes one of whether you can catch an extremely subtle effect as an instanteous audible fact - not whether you can perceive it in the way that we listen to music.
The fact is (I certainly agree) that modern amps, as has been duly noted, are able to produce the full frequency range - with a fairly similar degree of resolution, so the instantaneous sounds are extremely similar. Listening for instantaneous sounds - e.*. "are the drums there?", "can I hear what she's saying" chases away the ability to exerience the deeper and more subtle qualities of experiencing music (like appreciation for dynamics, imaging specificity/width/depth, timbre etc). These are rocks upon which current double blind methodology is wrecked. I've experienced it myself, trying to listen critically while a friend switches between components is like trying to touch smoke - or judge depth in a 3 dimensional field and then close one eye. The act of attempting to listen for differences banishes the depth of perception necessary to experience those differences.

Ultimately, exactly what we should be testing for in amplifier performance is open to question.
The aforementioned article by Mr. Cheever on feedback, used extensively to improve THD specs in many (especially lower priced mass market) amps "convincingly illustrates that even minimal amounts of negative feedback covert moderate amounts of low-order harmonic and intermodulation distortion into a multitude of high-order distortion products". These distortions are shown to top 10% at levels of feedback commonly used, but in Dynamic Intermodular Distortion products that are not conventionally listed in spec sheets. Factors like these need to drive future double blind tests.
Simply counting which double blind tests resulted in null results, and which ones resulted in subjects successfully being able to discern between amps (see http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_pwr.htm for some examples of both) doesn't help you if a particular test is comparing apples to apples (i.e. comparing between two essentially similar amps - like two amps of similar design and construction with comparable performance). To back up an assertion like "differences among amplifiers are inaudible" requires that amps with different design parameters be tested head to head. I haven't seen results for this kind of test.

Science hasn't proven the inaudibility of differences between amplifiers. In fact, it has hardly been brought to bear on the issue.
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
I am inclined to agree with you. Once I decided that my ears should decide I settled on tubes. I brought up the subject on this site before in a different way. Someone shortened it to chicks dig it. So be it. My current amps and preamp allow me to listen longer and louder than other amps allow. BTW I have been trying to use solid state equipment since the introduction of the first solid state amplifiers. Something in them always causes them to make me kind of dissatisfied after a while. Tubes don't give me that feeling. Some on this site will say things like, I like the distortion or the built in tone controls of tube amps. I also note that I mentioned the kind of levels I can listen at and it was suggested that I was doing my hearing some harm. The 85db level that others said was loud was frankly not loud enough for me. When I listen to The Firebird Suite I expect to hear peaks around +100db. This is the kind of level I hear when I am at the Kimmel Center. My normal listening levels are usually around 90 to 93db. I have participated in DBT testing with no real degree of success in determining which amp is playing. When long term use is part of the test solid state just doesn't work for me. Frankly, I don't care what type of transducer is used for amplification; thermionic or silicon I just want to enjoy the music. I actually would like solid state to be better. Replacing power tubes is not all that cheap. The money spent on tubes could buy more CD's or used vinyl. I have found that class A amps are less "irritating" than any other silicon based amps. All I want is to snuggle up with my current honey, suck up some Chimay and enjoy the music. Now, if I could only get her away from this fixation she has for Corona. I have tried to get away from saying that amps sound different because saying that on this site seems to release a lot of pent up animosity. To me they do sound different. The differences I hear can only be heard under long term listening. My lady friends seem to hear the differences much quicker.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Once I decided that my ears should decide I settled on tubes.

You mean you did a DBT listeing protocol? That is th eonly way you can use only your ears. Sighted listening uses all your other senses to confuse and decide.

My normal listening levels are usually around 90 to 93db.

That is way too loud and not normal. Maybe you have hearing loss from those high levels over the years. That might explain things.


I have participated in DBT testing with no real degree of success in determining which amp is playing.

It must have been the DBT at fault?

The differences I hear can only be heard under long term listening. My lady friends seem to hear the differences much quicker.

Interesting story. ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
NewYorkJosh said:
There are more things in heaven
and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. ..
. Hamlet by William Shakespeare: Act 1. Scene V

[B]"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." --Albert Einstein[/B]

I am troubled by the assertions - common to this forum, that double blind testing has proven the inaudibility of differences among amplifiers. I, personally, have, on many occaisions, swapped amplifiers and receivers in and out of a high quality system and have heard differences large and small almost every time. I'm not saying that the amps didn't sound essentially alike on a superficial level - but once settled into the music apparent differences in subtle but important qualities like dynamics, soundstage width and depth, image specificity, rhythmic drive and timbral accuracy were audible. I don't propose that I'm particularly a golden eared person - although I do care a lot about audio quality and play with audio gear a good deal. Since the audibility of amplifier equipment is such a regular and familiar attribute for me (and for many other admittedly audiophile folk I know) I am forced to consider the following possible conclusions:
1) Every instance of what I (and what many others) hear is pure placibo effect.
2) The methodolog(ies) used in double blind listening tests is flawed or incomplete.

Excuse me if I come to the second conclusion. I find it credulous that folks feel that something as etherial and subjective as audibility and perception can be considered scientifically known and proved - especially given the limited set of attributes usually tested (THD, IMD, power). The fact is that there are many many aspects of amplifier performance that are not routinely tested that have been shown to have significant audible effects. See Daniel Cheever's thesis on amplifier audiblity testing methodology (http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf)

And then, tested exactly how? The AES lists a specific methodological standard for testing loudspeakers (http://www.aes.org/standards/b_pub/aes20-1996.pdf) but none for testing amplifiers - presumeably because they have already dismissively determined that there is no point. However, even the standard for speaker testing says nothing about such important factors as listening selections or length of sample listening period. The fact is there is no consistency among double blind listening tests in terms of such important psychological factors as listening selection and length of sample.

Given these problems, it's more than credulous, it's fatuous to invoke science to dismiss arguements for the audibility of differences among amplifiers as Rip Van Woofer did:.


Mr. Van Woofer misses the point. It isn't that, by declaring the audibility of amplifiers, we reject the scientific method. Rather we reject the conclusions reached by the current spate of non-rigorously performed tests. Science has historically embraced many incorrect conclusions over the years, from phlogiston to the lumiferous aether. The fact that a current theory has some science to back it up isn't worthless - but it's only worth the quality of the science that it's based on. I haven't seen anything convincing at all in the science that the current AES theory that amplifier differences are inaudible.

It all comes down to the double-blind tests. The problem with the current methods of double blind testing (other than the lack of standards or consistency) is that they take music listening out of context. In an environment where test subjects are listening for differences, rather than experiencing the music emotionally, the test becomes one of whether you can catch an extremely subtle effect as an instanteous audible fact - not whether you can perceive it in the way that we listen to music.
The fact is (I certainly agree) that modern amps, as has been duly noted, are able to produce the full frequency range - with a fairly similar degree of resolution, so the instantaneous sounds are extremely similar. Listening for instantaneous sounds - e.*. "are the drums there?", "can I hear what she's saying" chases away the ability to exerience the deeper and more subtle qualities of experiencing music (like appreciation for dynamics, imaging specificity/width/depth, timbre etc). These are rocks upon which current double blind methodology is wrecked. I've experienced it myself, trying to listen critically while a friend switches between components is like trying to touch smoke - or judge depth in a 3 dimensional field and then close one eye. The act of attempting to listen for differences banishes the depth of perception necessary to experience those differences.

Ultimately, exactly what we should be testing for in amplifier performance is open to question.
The aforementioned article by Mr. Cheever on feedback, used extensively to improve THD specs in many (especially lower priced mass market) amps "convincingly illustrates that even minimal amounts of negative feedback covert moderate amounts of low-order harmonic and intermodulation distortion into a multitude of high-order distortion products". These distortions are shown to top 10% at levels of feedback commonly used, but in Dynamic Intermodular Distortion products that are not conventionally listed in spec sheets. Factors like these need to drive future double blind tests.
Simply counting which double blind tests resulted in null results, and which ones resulted in subjects successfully being able to discern between amps (see http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_pwr.htm for some examples of both) doesn't help you if a particular test is comparing apples to apples (i.e. comparing between two essentially similar amps - like two amps of similar design and construction with comparable performance). To back up an assertion like "differences among amplifiers are inaudible" requires that amps with different design parameters be tested head to head. I haven't seen results for this kind of test.

Science hasn't proven the inaudibility of differences between amplifiers. In fact, it has hardly been brought to bear on the issue.

We would be interested, me in particular, in any evidence you have to offer, not empty claims or anecdotes, that you or anyone can hear audible differences between competent amps, level matched under bias controlled conditions. Anything less is sheer speculation.
That thesis citation hase been shredded apart in the past. Too bad.

AES doesn't have ANY theory about amp sound. Where did you get that they had one?

I am troubled at your assertion that you can differentiate amps. Would have been easier to present the evidence supporting your claims and hearing accuity. After all, you do have that burden of proof or demonstration.
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
I have done enough testing over the years to know that I don't care. All I want is non irritating sound. My current rig gives me that. I have my hearing checked yearly. According to my doctor my hearing is much better than expected for aperson my age. I will say again "85db is not loud" I attend concerts at the Kimmel center and have taken my trusty SPL meter to actually check the levels. I want the same levels (approximatly) at home. 96 to 98db peaks are what I hear at the Kimmel center and what I get at home. Of course I listento a lot of music that actually has some dynamic range. :cool:
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
We would be interested, me in particular, in any evidence you have to offer, not empty claims or anecdotes, that you or anyone can hear audible differences between competent amps, level matched under bias controlled conditions. Anything less is sheer speculation.
That thesis citation hase been shredded apart in the past. Too bad.

AES doesn't have ANY theory about amp sound. Where did you get that they had one?

I am troubled at your assertion that you can differentiate amps. Would have been easier to present the evidence supporting your claims and hearing accuity. After all, you do have that burden of proof or demonstration.
Just who is we?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
JoeE SP9 said:
Just who is we?

Many others on this board. 'We' is not all inclusive, obviously and wasn't meant to be.
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Once I decided that my ears should decide I settled on tubes.

You mean you did a DBT listeing protocol? That is th eonly way you can use only your ears. Sighted listening uses all your other senses to confuse and decide.

My normal listening levels are usually around 90 to 93db.

That is way too loud and not normal. Maybe you have hearing loss from those high levels over the years. That might explain things.


I have participated in DBT testing with no real degree of success in determining which amp is playing.

It must have been the DBT at fault?

The differences I hear can only be heard under long term listening. My lady friends seem to hear the differences much quicker.

Interesting story. ;)
Who are you to decide how loud someone should listen.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
JoeE SP9 said:
Who are you to decide how loud someone should listen.

Oh, it is an observation and what OSHA considers loud without hearing protection and exposed times.
Other than that, I am a nobody. Be my guest, destroy your hearing what is left of it.
 
NewYorkJosh

NewYorkJosh

Enthusiast
mtrycrafts said:
We would be interested, me in particular, in any evidence you have to offer, not empty claims or anecdotes, that you or anyone can hear audible differences between competent amps, level matched under bias controlled conditions. Anything less is sheer speculation.
That thesis citation hase been shredded apart in the past. Too bad.
I don't have any specific evidence. My arguement is that current notions of DBT are inadequate. They don't jibe with my personal experience. I don't fool myself that I'm going to convince you. I'm just expressing my point of view. Perhaps someday, when my little kids and the rest of my life do not make such full demands on my time I'll find time to figure out a way to either fix the DBT protocol to reveal such differences, or convince myself through actual testing that you are right.

mtrycrafts said:
AES doesn't have ANY theory about amp sound. Where did you get that they had one? .
It's their lack of theory that I'm talking about. I'm taking on the objectivist position - and the AES is a big proponent of it.

mtrycrafts said:
I am troubled at your assertion that you can differentiate amps. Would have been easier to present the evidence supporting your claims and hearing accuity. After all, you do have that burden of proof or demonstration.
I'm making my assertion as blithely as a lot of folks post assertions of "proof" that there's no difference. I'm still looking for a good accounting of these DBT tests that prove the inaudibility of amps. If you have some links, please post them. I'll keep an open mind. Until then, I have my own experience - and I have noticed significant differences. The objectivists aknowledge differences too, some amps clip sooner - thus the language requiring equalized, level balanced, roughly same power etc... I'll be perfectly candid in admitting that, as an audio enthusiast, I haven't been rigorously scientific. Perhaps, if I'm proved wrong, I'll end up attributing some of the sonic difference to stuff like that. Meanwhile, just yesterday I swapped my 60 watt ARC Classic 60 tube amp out and my Yamaha 5760 in and noticed a dramatic difference in perceived sound (smaller soundstage width and depth, less explosive dynamics, less total involvement, but some better defined bass in the positive department). That's just my subjective experience - but there it is.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
My arguement is that current notions of DBT are inadequate. They don't jibe with my personal experience.

But you don't know how reliable your personal experiences are, right? It needs to be validated. And, knowing human psychology, it is your experiences that needs to be questined further.

I don't fool myself that I'm going to convince you. I'm just expressing my point of view.

I appreciate your point of view. It is just nothing new that others have not expressed over the past 25+ years that this debate has been ongoing. Many have taken the plunge, none has survived. Here is one relatively recent DBT:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=501fl6$ac3@oxy.rust.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1



or convince myself through actual testing that you are right.

I think that is what it will take:) Some must have personal experience. I don't need to reinvent the wheel:) or drop kick a concrete football ;) or any number of things.



It's their lack of theory that I'm talking about. I'm taking on the objectivist position - and the AES is a big proponent of it.

AES has no position on DBT or such psychological testing. Members use the tools and peers review when submitted to Journal publications.




I'm still looking for a good accounting of these DBT tests that prove the inaudibility of amps. If you have some links, please post them. I'll keep an open mind.

Most are not linkable. I posted one above. In 1990, International AES conference proceedings has a compilation of 23 DBT amp testing, 13,000+ trials.

I'll be perfectly candid in admitting that, as an audio enthusiast, I haven't been rigorously scientific.

We appreciate this:)

Perhaps, if I'm proved wrong, I'll end up attributing some of the sonic difference to stuff like that.

Or, maybe you cannot but to the unreliable protocols of the past.
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
As seen above, one often hears that the AES propounds or is somehow "behind" the "dogma" of objectivism where amps/audio are concerned.

One can visit the AES site and search till the cows come home and find no evidence of this; there is no Grand Audio Manifesto stating anything to the effect that "all amps sound alike, and those who believe otherwise are infidels". Indeed there are AES members who are subjectivists. I think a few Stereophile writers are members. They haven't been drummed out as far as I know (though they might be snickered at).

In fact, a cursory look at the topics covered in recent conventions doesn't mention amps much at all. Digital encoding and such seem to be the big things nowadays.

The AES, like many other scientific and professional organizations, simply acts (in part) as a place where members can exchange information. Being a technical and scientific body they have a peer-reviewed journal. Their standards for evidence are the same as those of other scientific and engineering disciplines from (say) physics to biology to psychology, including double-blind experimentation to reduce bias and control variables.

And really now: wouldn't it be a great academic and professional coup for a bright, iconoclastic engineer or scientist to finally, truly discover and codify the "x factor" or factors that account for the audible differences many claim to hear? To develop a new testing methodology to isolate those factors? Woudn't the prestige and possible financial rewards make it worth the skepticism our hypothetical discoverer would endure? Isn't that the way many breakthroughs in science have happened? Woudn't riches accrue to the company lucky enough to have hired said bright engineer/scientist and who might patent and produce the new circuit topologies that could take advantage of these new discoveries?

And isn't the fact that it hasn't happened in the 25-odd years this argument has been going on kind of...suggestive? I mean, sure, major scientific breakthroughs over things like plate tectonics, astrophysics, genetics and such have taken a generation or more to become accepted but face it: electrical and audio engineering aren't quite on the same plane of complexity and mystery, are they?

Finally, audio engineering as a profession, and the AES as an organization, do not exist in a vacuum. There is the other electrical engineering organization, the IEEE. There are the various scientific and engineering disciplines and their attendant professional organizations that deal with hearing, perception, psychology (same thing?) and acoustics -- all of which have an obvious bearing on audio and some of whose members certainly have some professional interest in sound reproduction. Indeed, audio engineering itself is a very "multi-disciplinary" profession; its practitioners (hence also many AES members) are also physisicts, mathemeticians, acousticians, even musicians (so much for the "soulless lab geek" stereotype). Is there evidence or any breakthroughs in understanding from any of those disciplines to support the hypothesis that a Sony from Best Buy sounds different from a Krell? Hasn't some psychologist (say) doing cutting-edge research into human hearing and perception met his buddy the electrical engineer at an AES convention and said, "Hey, Joe, I've found something out that suggests people really can hear the difference after all." -- let alone presented a paper that survived peer review?

BTW, ears are splendid things. Music woudn't be possible without 'em. But for best results they need to be connected to your brain. ;)
 
Last edited:
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top