The “Sound” of receivers…

[Unregistered]

Precicely. That is why I prefer to apply the standards of science to the former, and the standards of art to the latter.

No argument there for the audio part. But it has no place in the totality of this HOBBY. NONE whatsoever.

 

[Unregistered]

Personally, I do not think that amps and receivers can be effectively DBT'd, too many variables to control. But, do not ever tell me you heard differences in cables.

Oh yeah, the put down of bigotry from you was a bit funny. Especially considering how, according to you, anything from the orient is isn't worth it's components. Open up your Rotel and tell me what is says on the circuit boards. Most likely "Made in Malayasia" or "Made in Singapore".

I myself do not hear difference sbetween my IXOS cables and the hardware variety. But that doesn't me I lampoon people who do.

And yes, I do not find Japanese mass market receivers to be of value for serious listening. Especially not mine - a value that is not only mine, but shared by fellow snobs in the hobby. They are power-deficient and over-hyped. Period. That should be unmistakably clear from all my posts on the subject of power. But I do not question nor ridicule people who do. That's entirely their own pesonal affair. I only state my personal value perceptions in this hobby.

AV_PHILE

 

[Unregistered]

Mtrycrafts:
I've heard a lot of "audiophiles" who claim that an equipment sounds accurate, open, pristine, forward, bla, bla, bla; and then this equipment, when objectively (how do i spell this?) measured, turns to be the oposite of the adjectives above. And then, when an "audiophile" says that an equipment is "harsh", bla, bla, bla it results to be a low distortion, flat frequency response, low noise good piece of gear. So, i don't undestand this "audiophile" criteria. I'm tempted to think that these people are happier spending ridiculous amounts of money than listening to music.

Does it matter? What is garbage to one is another's treasure in this hobby, and vice versa.. I really couldn't care less what those osciliscopes will tell me. I am not an oscilliscope. If a cd player or amp that has the amost atroxious frequency response graph and a slew of THDs and TIMs and IMs as revealed by those measuring devices make for what is euphonic to my ears and gives me my sonic nirvana in this hobby, then those gears are RIGHT for ME in this hobby. They are what makes me happy in this hobby. Period.

AV_PHILE.

 

[Unregistered]

Spent a good couple of hours with the friendly and patient owner, using both my program material and his. But I didn't hear anything that seemed particularly revealatory vs. my current motley collection of DIY speakers, generic cables, and old/secondhand electronics.

Chacun à son goût.

Good for you. You are indeed blessed not to have to shell out all those $$$ for gears that others are cursed to hear differently.

 

[Unregistered]

Here we go again, ALL sound the same?

DAC? Waste of good money. Dime a dozzen for the chips. Commodity product, not rocket science today, or for a while now.

Anything else you'd be curious about?

That's you opinion. For people who hear differences between a stock CD player and one using separate transport and DAC gears, it's their money. Do you own any of these to make any comparison?

 

[Unregistered]

They all, independently, had the same observations as me. Vocals become more intelligible and incisive. Bass is not increased but becomes further defined. Cymbals sound more metallic.

Such assessments are meaningless to people who only care about oscilliscopes and about bias-controlled DBTs. They have entirely missed the point of this hobby.

It is illogical to assume anything untestable (or untested) is valueless.

It is not just illogical, it's downright silly. Try proving or disproving that GOD exists. But its value to society outweighs anything else.

On these things, I must trust my ears.

Those are the only things that matter in this hobby. You choose your gears with them; you enjoy the music with them. The hobby dies without them.

 

[Unregistered]

Receivers do sound different from each other "out of the box". Anyone with a level meter can verify that with test tones. There will be differences in db levels at any given frequency between different receivers. Many of these variances are most likely designed into the receiver on purpose to give it a distinctive sound, but that is beside the point.

Do two high-quality receivers sound different after level matching and EQ'ing them to the 'nth degree? Probably not enough that anyone could actually tell the difference.

My question is, how many of you have the equipment and knowledge to be able to level match and EQ them to the 'nth degree? I certainly don't, so they will sound different to me.

Even if the amplifier sections are identical, would there also not be differences such as different DAC's/ADC's interpreting data slightly different from each other, and many other small variances due to different components? I'm not saying that I could actually tell the difference unless one of the receivers is very poorly designed or flawed in some way, but my point is that they are different out of the box.

When shopping for a receiver, neither I nor the salesman has the time or the patience to perfectly level match (let alone EQ) the receivers I am auditioning. Heck, I got funny looks when I whipped out my RS meter at Tweeters, but I at least leveled the receivers within a db or so of each other when checking them out. I did hear differences between receivers while using the same speakers while running the receivers in "pure" mode.

Your personal experience perceiving differences among different amps is as valid as any in this hobby. Not everyone is blessed to hear subtle differences as you do. But I should have gone earlier to warn you that such experiences are ridiculed in this forum as being unreliable and not supported by facts. These creatures will prefer to stake their reputation on statistical probabilities rather than respect the personal humanity of people engaged in this hobby.

 

[Unregistered]

Forgot to sign my handle. All the above "unregistered" are from AV_PHILE.

 

[Mudcat]

I myself do not hear difference sbetween my IXOS cables and the hardware variety. But that doesn't me I lampoon people who do.

I do not lampoon people who buy hyper expensive gear (cables included). I lampoon those who willing buy into snake oil and BS.

And yes, I do not find Japanese mass market receivers to be of value for serious listening. Especially not mine - a value that is not only mine, but shared by fellow snobs in the hobby. They are power-deficient and over-hyped. Period. That should be unmistakably clear from all my posts on the subject of power. But I do not question nor ridicule people who do. That's entirely their own pesonal affair. I only state my personal value perceptions in this hobby.

AV_PHILE

You missed my point. Your beloved ROTEL probably has enough of it's guts manufactured in the orient to qualify as a Malayasian import.

They are not power deficient. If you know how to read technical BS every manufacturer puts out then you will know how much power they can have over any number of channels. If you know what to look for, you buy the power you need (or want). That was a major point of this thread (I think anyway - it's been a long time). Now over-hyped is an other matter in which you and I are probably in agreement.


I also like to lampoon snobs and people who do not check their spelling. (Yeah, I know you can't edit if you do not register. But that is not my problem.)

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Peace pipe

OK, OK, settle down kids. I like a good airing of differences as much as the next guy but we're getting a little testy here on both sides of the issue. Yes, "we" includes me.

mklorsmith said something before perhaps wisely bowing out of the exchange (I kept trying, honest!) with which I agree and have myself stated elsewhere: ultimately it seems to come down to a broader worldview "beyond hi-fi" and what place the scientific outlook has in that gestalt, about which argument is futile.

So, take a deep breath and come back to play nice. Try to disagree without being disagreeable. Try to avoid the temptation to offer a tailored rebuttal for each (seemingly) boneheaded point the other guy makes. Walk away when the other guy makes it pesonal. Let's not frighten the folks who come here and just want to find out what speakers to buy! For me, I've said as much as I can, as well as I can, on the subject here and elsewhere and will try (emphasis on "try"!) to keep out of further discussions along this line.

Hmmm...maybe I should edit them all into a "Van Woofer Manifesto"...nah...I'd rather listen to some music.

 

[miklorsmith]

Good words.

I'm a newbie to this forum. I came into this thread with an inflammatory salvo which probably should have been toned down. However, if the forum is looking to attract new talent, it would be prudent to avoid outright attacks on others' intelligence and views. Copy-clipping someone's comment to bash them in your own doesn't promote true dialog. Besides, what's the point in making someone feel stupid?

I don't disparage or devalue science as a whole. I don't devalue its use in audio magazines to display response characteristics of kit. It can't tell you what you'll like though. Interestingly (or not really), after the round we all ended up back in our corners where we'll likely stay. Doesn't invalidate the discussion.

The press of which I have been made aware seems to state that no one can hear the difference between anything. I assume concerted efforts have been made to level the playing field. Conclusion? The physical test has probably been made sufficiently neutral (which would seem to contradict NYJosh's expectations).

I and many thousands of others are occupied in the quest for perfection, though I doubt any of us could define it. Why? It's not to dig a hole big enough to pour all my money in, I assure you. I do not seek out the most expensive thing, rather the best possible fit at the best price. Getting great deals, used or overstocks are joyous. I have made many changes to my system and have observed, first-hand, significant changes in the sound.

Since others have failed to prove that anything sounds any different, why would I try? That sounds like a lot of fruitless work. I don't have the time, nor equipment, and even if I somehow made a "significant" finding, the testing methodology would be endlessly scrutinized. I would be forced to redouble my efforts to somehow create a better test.

I'm not in this to devise tests. This places the intellectual and emotional levels of audio appreciation at odds (gasp!) rather than harmonizing, which is how I have chosen to enjoy music and will continue to.

I think the reason these tests fail is the human brain and it's nearly immediate adjustment to incoming sounds. Instant acclimitization would explain all of the seemingly dichotomous views expressed in this entire thread. It wouldn't provide much hope for the "testing or die" camps though. Do we have a psychologist in the crowd?

Anyway, it's been real. Now where was I?. . .

 

[toquemon]

However, the final cause of this forum is to pursue the truth in audio and that includes these kinds of discussions. I don't think i've missed the point of this hobby by requesting facts and statistical signifficance, contrary to that, the main problem, i think, is the abuse that some manufacturers perpetrate against us, the consumers, specially here in Mexico where a middle-of-the-road Krell amp can cost as much as 30,000 bucks. This is unacceptable. That's why some of us in this forum require facts instead of subjective opinions;because not all of us can afford to spend 100,000 in an equipment that sounds open, pristine,bla, bla, bla. And if a $1,000 buck receiver with a pair of $1,000 buck speakers do the job, why spend more?. I've learned a lot in this forum with all the different visions posted here, from the objetivism of Mr.Mrtycrafts to the subjetivism of Mr.Av_Phile and the centered opinion of Mr. Yamahaluver to name a few. Thank you all guys!.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Centered opinion??? WOW! now that is what I call a real compliment.

 

[Karp]

Receivers do sound different from each other "out of the box". Not sure what you mean, 'out of the box.' Am I tho think that the performance improve after it has been out of the box for a long time?

I thought I was being clear, but perhaps not. I was referring, of course, to factory settings.



There will be differences in db levels at any given frequency between different receivers.

The frequency response spec will so reflect this. I have not seen this with most receivers, ruler flat I have.

Really? My Dennon, for instance has a manufacturer's specified frequency response of 10 Hz ~ 100 kHz : +0, -3 dB in direct mode (measured at 1 Wpc? that is not specified, but assumed). Pretty darn flat, but not ruler flat. Most midrange/high-end receivers are measured with an average of +/- .5 dB. While .5 dB is not detectable to the human ear, this is an average, and there are differences of quite a bit more than that when measured at higher dB levels, which are then often amplified at certain frequencies by the room itself. Am I wrong in thinking that if the room is a constant then it can be ruled out, even though it does have an effect on the sound? I don't happen to have an anechoic chamber in my house.
I do however get your point in that if any two given receivers were perfectly matched (which I cannot do), there would be no differences between the two for a room to amplify, since it would amplify them equally.



I'm not saying that I could actually tell the difference unless one of the receivers is very poorly designed or flawed in some way, but my point is that they are different out of the box.

OK, They do measure different. I bet even the same model in different location on the assembly line. Modern technology is so good at measureing that we can measure so far below thresholds of hearing that it is unreal. That is why they measure different but not audibley so.

Is it me, or did you just directly contradict your prior statement? I do not mean to pick nits nor question your reasoning. I just believe that you are looking at measurements taken in ideal conditions at 1 W output and not considering that these very slight differences are expotentially increased when the receiver is stressed in a normal room that can amplify these differences at certain frequencies


Heck, I got funny looks when I whipped out my RS meter at Tweeters, but I at least leveled the receivers within a db or so of each other when checking them out. I did hear differences between receivers while using the same speakers while running the receivers in "pure" mode.

Withinf a dB or so, who know how much or so, no wonder. Not to mention it was most likely biased?

I was under the impression that it is difficult to detect differences of approximately 1db. I leveled them as best I could to 85db in that environment with the 1khz test tone that I burned onto a cd (along with several songs I was familiar with) for the purpose of auditioning speakers and receivers.
I do not believe that my impressions were more than slightly biased (everyone has some bias based on what they have heard or read). I have no brand loyalty and I was auditioning three receivers in the same price range that received equally good reviews. If anything, I was leaning towards a Yamaha because I was impressed with the features, but ended up buying a Dennon because although they sounded identical in the quieter passages of the music I brought (and was very familiar with), the Dennon had more impact in the louder passages while I detected some compression with the Yamaha (to my ears). If I have any biases, it would be against Sony's midrange and lower end receivers. I had one of their midrange receivers and it started sounding very harsh and compressed when I drove my (very efficient Klipch) speakers above 90db or so (measured at 10' away from speakers).

I would like to add that on most of your points, I mostly agree with you. I believe that if you level match AND equalize two receivers, AND you do not stress either one, that it is practically impossible to tell them apart. On the other hand, if you level match, but do not equalize the two receivers AND you stress them, the differences are easy to hear.

My old Sony for instance, although rated at 100Wpc, became harsh an stressed at db levels far below my current receiver which is also rated at 100Wpc. I am also not saying, for instance, that other Sony models would get stressed the same as my old receiver. I think that every model is different and am sure that there are upper range or future Sony (or Yamaha or other brand) models that may (or may not) crush my current Dennon.

I would however recommend my particular model if someone asked my opinion. My recommendation would of course then be biased, but only because of my personal knowlege which is based on comparison of a limited number of models from different manufacturers.I would not tell someone that my particular model is better or worse than models that I did not compare it against.

I have rambled on quite long enough (probably too long). I am not an expert, and my points are based on what I have personally read or experienced. Therefore, my reasoning may be flawed (and I am willing to admit this possibility). I do, however have doubts of other's opinions when they use narrowly defined measurements and conclude that these measurments are not affected by variables that are not measured in said tests. That does not mean that I do not respect that person's knowlege or opinion or that I cannot learn from him/her. My own knowlege has grown quite a bit in the few short months I have been involved in the Audioholics forum and discussions such as this one. [

 

[Karp]

Good words....
.....Anyway, it's been real. Now where was I?. . .

Your entire statement is very well said miklorsmith.

 

[Unregistered]

There are many areas in life where logical objectivism is called for, preferred and admired when achieved. Office work and business deals are among them. We attempt to be objective when assessing a job applicant, when judging a beauty pageant, comparing cars and appliances. Even within the family, being objective to our kids is nice. But at the end of the day, after interviewing the job applicant, applying our personal assesement of what beauty is to score a pageant finalist, applying our value perceptions on what makes a great car to fit our personality, and making a judgement call not to punish a favourite child, subjectivsm rules. Objectivism is relegated to a mere academic exercise.

In this hobby, objectivism is not even called for. The hobby is about an indulgence to gratify the aural senses of a person made up of biases and preferrences, wants and dislikes. Enjoying the hobby is SUBJECT to all these. What's the point being objective in this hobby? What benefit will it get you? Will it increase your enjoyment in it? Why reduce your humanity to the level of dispassionate measuring instruments when choosing or assessing gears? Will doing so gain for you the hardware that will make you enjoy in it? Do you close your eyes when making a choice of appliance at Best Buys? Do you do the same when choosing the CDs and LPs you want? Must you exercise clinical objectivity when appreciating the music you want? Is this hobby a scientific expedition of sort? Do you have to be logical in a hobby that defies logic to begin with(what's so logical about a luxurious indulgence of the aural senses when people are dying of hunger elsewhere in the world? what's so logical about a hobby that aims to capture a fleeting objective that can never be attained?)

There are areas in life where objectivity has no place whatsoever. This hobby is one of them. Not only is it inappropriate to be objective, but it takes so much time, resources and expense to do so. And to what ends? Just to to be able to show that all amps, players and cables sound the same? Where's the fun in that? It seems to me that people who feel they must apply logical objectivity and the scientific methods in this hobby have entirely missed the boat. You're supposed to enjoy in this hobby. Not achieve what is correct or logical. Do you have to be logical and apply the scientific method when choosing and enjoying your spouse? My goodness.

I know that the audio gears in this hobby are a product of science and engineering. True. But science and engineering stops precisely when those audo gears ship out of the manufacturing plants. As an audiophilic indulgence, this hobby is a celebration of the musical sounds. People can enjoy music attending live concerts or listening to invited musicians at home like in the past. In short, this hobby can thrive without those audio gears. Those audio gears are a 20th century contraption of convenience so people need not bother going out to enjoy music, nor suffer the logistical and financial nightmares of having musicians perform at home. They are useless without the musical sources fed into them. And just because part of the enjoyment of this hobby is derived from those audio gears doesn't mean we have to be logical and scientific in this hobby.

Let's not forget that this hobby is about enjoying musical sounds on the personal level. Not enjoying the hardware. Personal experience, the musical sources and your ears are what matter. Not oscilliscopes or DBTs.

AV_PHILE

 

[mtrycrafts]

I've learned a lot in this forum with all the different visions posted here, from the objetivism of Mr.Mrtycrafts to the subjetivism of Mr.Av_Phile and the centered opinion of Mr. Yamahaluver to name a few. Thank you all guys!.

Thank you. That is what this place is about to pass on information so someoen else can make an informed choice with information from as many points as possible. Without that, one is bound to make mistakes in choices, especially if the $$$ is an imprtant aspect of the selection process.

 

[mtrycrafts]

In this hobby, objectivism is not even called for.

By whom? Certainly there are audiophiles who do not; that is most obvious.
There are many others who do call on it. Certainly designers of many componsnets do, Surprize
Without it, you whould have chaos, no standards, nothing, just an art gallery.


The hobby is about an indulgence to gratify the aural senses of a person made up of biases and preferrences, wants and dislikes.

Or, just plain enjoyment.

Enjoying the hobby is SUBJECT to all these.

Why? How? You mean one cannot enjoy without any of your criterias? Interesting supposition.

What's the point being objective in this hobby?

Why not? Same reason why you can do as you supposed above.

What benefit will it get you?

Ah, maybe that is what missing in you, not knowing the benefits.

Will it increase your enjoyment in it?

Why could it not? Sheer sp[eculation if you think it cannot.

Why reduce your humanity to the level of dispassionate measuring instruments when choosing or assessing gears?

Meaningless verbage.

Will doing so gain for you the hardware that will make you enjoy in it?

Why would it not? That is most likely why someone would do this test in the first place, or, to make an informed choice. You seem to grapple at strawmen excuses.

Do you close your eyes when making a choice of appliance at Best Buys?

Well, looks are of issue in such a product. But so is its performance too, its repair history, its efficiency, claimed capability and to meet such claims. Why do you think Consumer Reports are still in busienss, doing well?

Do you do the same when choosing the CDs and LPs you want?

Why would one do that? Silly question. You must soppose that if one is DBTed, everything must be? Silly.

Must you exercise clinical objectivity when appreciating the music you want?

Actrually, no. I enjoy music from a boombox, a car radio, etc. Can you?

Is this hobby a scientific expedition of sort?

Why not? What is in the way?

Do you have to be logical in a hobby that defies logic to begin with(what's so logical about a luxurious indulgence of the aural senses when people are dying of hunger elsewhere in the world? what's so logical about a hobby that aims to capture a fleeting objective that can never be attained?)

Well, it is only your supposition that this hoby defies logic. Maye for you?

There are areas in life where objectivity has no place whatsoever.

Such as?

This hobby is one of them.

Only your supposition and opinion. Eveyone has one, you know.

Not only is it inappropriate to be objective, but it takes so much time, resources and expense to do so.

It is only inappropriate for you. Don't speak for everyone, please. Maybe for th eones who authorized you to do so.

Just to to be able to show that all amps, players and cables sound the same?


Why not. A good reason. Then you can conc entrate on th eimportant parts of th e hobby, not waste time on th ewrong parts. Leaves nmore time to enjoy.

Where's the fun in that?

Ah, you think everyone must have fun the way you perceive 'fun' to be? You want them to be robots, to have your kind of fun?

It seems to me that people who feel they must apply logical objectivity and the scientific methods in this hobby have entirely missed the boat.

Yet another false and unreliable perception.


You're supposed to enjoy in this hobby.

You mean enjoyment your way? Only your criteria will acheve it? Aren't you presuming more than you can handle?


Do you have to be logical and apply the scientific method when choosing and enjoying your spouse?

Why not? It migh really work out to the best. Why do you think there are so many divorces? Because the spuses were picked on objectivity and logic? Hardly.

My goodness.

Yes.

I know that the audio gears in this hobby are a product of science and engineering. True.

That is an interesting revelation.

But science and engineering stops precisely when those audo gears ship out of the manufacturing plants.

That is what you'd like and many makers too. Don't question. Trust us. Believe our marketeers and bs grinders. You may believe this. Obviously you do.

As an audiophilic indulgence, this hobby is a celebration of the musical sounds.

Is it? Maybe the live performance is.

People can enjoy music attending live concerts or listening to invited musicians at home like in the past. In short, this hobby can thrive without those audio gears.

You think? Harldy. Those artists would be few and far between.

They are useless without the musical sources fed into them.

Ypu can always make your own and play it back. give it to your friends and family to enjoy, or not

And just because part of the enjoyment of this hobby is derived from those audio gears doesn't mean we have to be logical and scientific in this hobby.

Nor does it mean you cannot be so logical.

Let's not forget that this hobby is about enjoying musical sounds on the personal level.

How about a group level?

Not enjoying the hardware.

Ah, so you don;t enjoy your hardware then? WOW, you seem to spend enough time on them not to enjoy the hardware. Curious.

Personal experience, the musical sources and your ears are what matter. Not oscilliscopes or DBTs.

AV_PHILE
You can think this, yes. Others can think something different, yes.

 

[Unregistered]

In this hobby, objectivism is not even called for.

By whom? Certainly there are audiophiles who do not; that is most obvious.
There are many others who do call on it. Certainly designers of many componsnets do, Surprize
Without it, you whould have chaos, no standards, nothing, just an art gallery.

I am not a designer or maker of those gears. Neither are most people in the hobby. Let them who are, do, if they wish. Like I said, audio is just part of this hobby. That's where you can be objective all you like. That's where you can apply all the standards you like, designing standards, manufacturing standards, measurement standards, ek, ek. But not in this hobby. This hobby is an ART. Not a Science. The audio part is the science. It ends there. There are no standards that will tell you how you can achieve satisfication in this hobby. Everyone has his/her own levels of satisfaction. And they're all subjectively unique to each.

Enjoying the hobby is SUBJECT to all these.

Why? How? You mean one cannot enjoy without any of your criterias? Interesting supposition

What's the point being objective in this hobby?

Why not? Same reason why you can do as you supposed above..

An objective assessment is where you suspend all your humanity to act and think like unfeeling, dispassionate and unbiased measuring devices or robots. It has no place in a hobby that places all your humanity at your disposal for appreciating the musical sounds that will give you enjoyment. Does a robot enjoy? Ofcourse, if it were programmed to, it can act and exhibit the signs of enjoyment. But such manifestations are not what real enjoyment is.

What benefit will it get you?

Ah, maybe that is what missing in you, not knowing the benefits.

Oh I stand corrected, I could think of one: It can give comfort to people who own cheap mediocre stuff. It closes all other possibilies beyond their mediocre stuff simply becasue such possibilies belong in the realm of untestable claims. They benefit from saving their money, but loses out on the possibilites out there that can enrich their enjoyment of the hobby.

Will it increase your enjoyment in it?

Why could it not? Sheer sp[eculation if you think it cannot.

Well if it does for you, good for you. But don't go preaching to others about how they should enjoy themselves in this hobby. I don't. They're free to enjoy whichever way they go. So are you. That's why no standards or objectivity can ever matter in it.

Why reduce your humanity to the level of dispassionate measuring instruments when choosing or assessing gears?

Meaningless verbage.

It's certainly meaningless to robots who will forever wonder what humanity is all about.

Why would it not? That is most likely why someone would do this test in the first place, or, to make an informed choice. You seem to grapple at strawmen excuses.

What test? Your test? My ears and personal experience are all that is necessary to make any comparison. THose DBTs are really just that - straws..

Do you close your eyes when making a choice of appliance at Best Buys?

Well, looks are of issue in such a product. But so is its performance too, its repair history, its efficiency, claimed capability and to meet such claims. Why do you think Consumer Reports are still in busienss, doing well?

You missed my point. Looks having nothing to do with it. I was referring to your ridiculous DBT criteria when you choose your gears. Do you know what DBT stands for? There's a word "blind" in it. It has no place when choosing gears in any store.

Do you do the same when choosing the CDs and LPs you want?

Why would one do that? Silly question. You must soppose that if one is DBTed, everything must be? Silly.

Your selective logic is most revealling. But aren't you supposed to logical in it as well? You extoll DBTs at every turn at every mention of a personal experience where one gear is heard to be better than another, pitting your DBTwith personal exeprience as being more reliable, when everything in this hobby is about personal experience. THat's a lot more silly and laughable.

Actrually, no. I enjoy music from a boombox, a car radio, etc. Can you?

Good for you. I couldn't care less. You enjoy what you want. That's what makes this hobby a personal statement.

Is this hobby a scientific expedition of sort?

Why not? What is in the way?

Why am I not surprised? Very predictable. Now I understand. You must be a cyborg of some sort. But just to answer you. What's in the way is the subjective humanity of the hobbyst aspiring to get the most enjoyment out of the hobby. So if you want to take that out, I wonder who would be left to enjoiy in this hobby.

Do you have to be logical in a hobby that defies logic to begin with(what's so logical about a luxurious indulgence of the aural senses when people are dying of hunger elsewhere in the world? what's so logical about a hobby that aims to capture a fleeting objective that can never be attained?)

Well, it is only your supposition that this hoby defies logic. Maye for you?

It is for me. Luxury is never logical. Any form of indulgence is never logical.

There are areas in life where objectivity has no place whatsoever.

Such as?

This hobby is one of them.

Only your supposition and opinion. Eveyone has one, you know.

Not only is it inappropriate to be objective, but it takes so much time, resources and expense to do so.

It is only inappropriate for you. Don't speak for everyone, please. Maybe for th eones who authorized you to do so.

Just to to be able to show that all amps, players and cables sound the same?

Why not. A good reason. Then you can conc entrate on th eimportant parts of th e hobby, not waste time on th ewrong parts. Leaves nmore time to enjoy.

It is preciseely the aimless and needless application of such objectivity and logic to this hobby that is a total waste and a mockery of intellectual aptitude better reserved to more productive uses. Not only because its results are open to senseless debate and question despite the effort and expense of conducting some logically thought-out DBT methodology, and their implications a mere statistical probability at best, but their place in this hobby confines the hobbyst to mere statistical probabilities that exclude all other poissibles for achieving personal aural gratification.

Where's the fun in that?

Ah, you think everyone must have fun the way you perceive 'fun' to be? You want them to be robots, to have your kind of fun?

Interesting, look what robot is talking. I certainly don't want to be the robot that you are. The fun that I refer is their fun, whatever that is.

 

[Unregistered]

[/QUOTE]
It seems to me that people who feel they must apply logical objectivity and the scientific methods in this hobby have entirely missed the boat.

Yet another false and unreliable perception.
[/QUOTE]

For a robot, I am not surprised.

[/QUOTE]
You're supposed to enjoy in this hobby.

You mean enjoyment your way? Only your criteria will acheve it? Aren't you presuming more than you can handle?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am pressuming that people in this hobby know exactly how to achieve their own enjoynment from this hobby. Not from the self-serving delusions of robots that their DBTs are more relevant to the hobby than a personal experience.

Do you have to be logical and apply the scientific method when choosing and enjoying your spouse?

Why not? It migh really work out to the best. Why do you think there are so many divorces? Because the spuses were picked on objectivity and logic? Hardly.

So you also DBT your girlfriends? Again, another predictable response. I am sure if spouses were married based on objectivity and logic, not love, there'd be less divorces. Less mistakes. But it is precisely the presence of those mistakes that celebrate any success as a human triumph. Computers and robots are not expected to err.

But science and engineering stops precisely when those audo gears ship out of the manufacturing plants.

That is what you'd like and many makers too. Don't question. Trust us. Believe our marketeers and bs grinders. You may believe this. Obviously you do.

Hey, if you want to take up arms against these marketing charlatans, call your senator or join Ralph Nader's crusade. Better still, join the red army and overhaul the capitalist structure into a robotic communal state where everyone just have a $300 receiver.

Personal experience, the musical sources and your ears are what matter. Not oscilliscopes or DBTs.

AV_PHILE
You can think this, yes. Others can think something different, yes.

I have no problem with people thinking differently. So long as they don't disparage and ridicule others who don't share their opinion. How many people have been turned off by wanna-bees like you. Like O'Shag who just happened to opine what he heard from his personal experience about cables. He was enjoying his hobby and wanted to share his experience. Then here you go together with you ilk swooping down like wanton vultures with: "Did you bother to DBT those cables?" How sure are you that your experience is reliable?" Or words to that effect. What bigotry and presumptuousness. You sound like DBT is everything in this hobby. Disparaging personal experiences in the process. What makes you think your DBT is relevant in this hobby so that all other efforts must be measured against such statistical probabilities? I do not quesiton the validity of your DBTs, I question their relevance in this hobby. I don't care if that is what gives you your kicks in this hobby, if at all you engage in it. But when you start to sound like you have the monopoly of what is right in this hobby, as if what is right and what is wrong matters in it, and by implication, relegating all other opinion and experience contrary to yours to the realm of the delusional, you won't hear the end from me.

It doesn't matter that I myself don't hear difference between cables, or between stock players and those using separate DACs, or between amps in a certain price range. But I don't question those who do, preferring to defer to their better hearing faculties that I may not have. Preferring to consider that there are posibilities in this hobby that have not been proven. That there may something more to cables than just resistance, capacitance and inductance. This is a hobby where anything that makes one happy with their set-up is just as correct and valid as any other. Ignorance is no excuse, that is why forums like this are meant to engender intelligent discusions of possibilities experienced by one hobbyist and shared with other members. And not be ridiculed for espousing claims that have yet to be tested. If they want to use what you call snake oil products, and they can afford and do HEAR difference with and without them, who are you who don't own or have tested these products to question their VALUEs and experience in this hobby? Do mere textbook assertions and theories have more prominence than personal experience in a personal indulgence like this hobby? Have they defined the limits and the boundaries of this hobby? My goodness. You better hear yourself ape some dictatorial penchant for imposing your limited textbook opinions as facts and truths.

AV_PHILE