SVS PB12-Ultra vs. Axiom EP-500 Blind Test

[Sheep]

The Box and driver play and Equal roll in the subwoofers performance, same with the amp, but not quite as important.

A driver with an Fs of 30Hz ain't going to make much noise at 20Hz no matter how big the box, or how many ports are plugged

WinISD is a fun program to screw around with box parameters and different drivers.

SheepStar

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

An earlier post in this thread has been reported. I hope the hotheads here have calmed down some.

May I clear up some evident confusion on what constitutes a DBT (Double Blind Test)? It has nothing to do with "lab conditions" or whatnot. You don't need the facilities of Harman International to conduct a valid DBT (though it helps!). It simply means that both the subjects and the experimenter(s) are ignorant of which device is being tested at a given time. That's the "double blind" part. A test where only the subjects are "in the dark" is a single blind test. A "triple-blind test" is a double-blind test where the experimenter susequently loses the data. (That was a joke to break the tension. Laugh, dang it!)

(Apologies if I missed such a clarification earlier. I was focusing on the rants and flames in my mod role.)

Another point: The vagaries and unreliability of acoustic (or sonic) memory (heck, memory in general - think back to Psych 101) are well attested to in the scientific literature AFAIK. THe sooner you can compare A and B, blind or not, the better.

The test that started the thread was a decidedly informal test. I don't think the designers or participants had any ideas otherwise or presented as anything more. So why are people getting their drawers in a knot?

I'll put it down to holiday stress. OK? Now behave yourselves or you'll get coal in your stockings.

 

[silversurfer]

The Box and driver play and Equal roll in the subwoofers performance, same with the amp, but not quite as important.

A driver with an Fs of 30Hz ain't going to make much noise at 20Hz no matter how big the box, or how many ports are plugged

WinISD is a fun program to screw around with box parameters and different drivers.

SheepStar

Well, you didn't really answer my question.

In those product lines, to lower the extension, the basicly increase the size of the sub. To get better quality sound, you have to move up in lines to get a better driver.

If I played a 25hz and below material on a PC+ and a PC-Ultra, you would not hear the difference, but you would hear a difference in the upper bass.

 

[Sheep]

The boxes for the PB 2's (double driver) are the same size. The drivers are the same size. The THD and GD figures are different.

The cylinders are the same size (31, 39, 46) but the THD and GD figures change. Still got the same size driver.

Whats changing them?

SheepStar
Edit: You can hear a difference. Volume isn't the only thing you hear. The PCi subwoofers will definately sound different from the PC+ and PC Ultra.

 

[silversurfer]

The boxes for the PB 2's (double driver) are the same size. The drivers are the same size. The THD and GD figures are different.

The cylinders are the same size (31, 39, 46) but the THD and GD figures change. Still got the same size driver.

Whats changing them?

SheepStar

The drivers are different.

Despite those measurements, you would not hear a difference with material below 25hz, but you would for the upper bass. Between those sub lines, for the lower bass, those specs are meaningless in terms of what you hear, because you hear no difference.

 

[Audioholics]

Some people on this thread just love to hear themselves talk. I'm also not terribly impressed with the ones who can't bear to not have the very last word. You know who you are.

Keep it productive. If I have to split this thread I'm going to start banning certain people for wasting my time.

When someone goes through the trouble to do a listening test and the points of view are given and nothing is hidden, feel free to articulate your concerns as to the process, but don't be a butt about it in the process.

 

[silversurfer]

I don't think I made myself clear.

I meant the differences between a PC+ and a PC-Ultra tuned the same.

 

[silversurfer]

Edit: You can hear a difference. Volume isn't the only thing you hear. The PCi subwoofers will definately sound different from the PC+ and PC Ultra.

You are saying you can hear a difference in the bass below 25hz? I am not talking loudness in any of this.

 

[Duffinator]

.....anybody got one of them Merlin Hogan Grotto's?.....I'm very curious about that one....a lot....sealed-box small cannons and mini-barns I believe would kick it's butt, but I suspect there would be some very good top voice in that front-firing Grotto......

Mule, no Grotto but a friend has a Descent. Absolutely amazing sub. It is so tight and controlled it's like nothing else I've ever heard with music. It kicks for HT as well. It's got three or your 10" guns! But I haven't heard the Velo DD's although my friend bought the ML as a replacement for the Velo HGS-15. Go find one and listen to it.

 

[Sheep]

Mule, no Grotto but a friend has a Descent. Absolutely amazing sub. It is so tight and controlled it's like nothing else I've ever heard with music. It kicks for HT as well. It's got three or your 10" guns! But I haven't heard the Velo DD's although my friend bought the ML as a replacement for the Velo HGS-15. Go find one and listen to it.

3 tens don't replace 8 12's....

SheepStar

 

[Duffinator]

3 tens don't replace 8 12's....

SheepStar

That's not what he's looking for.

 

[brian32672]

Keep it productive. If I have to split this thread I'm going to start banning certain people for wasting my time.

Sadly I feel you are talking about me, (call it a guilty conscience)
Hopefully I will not get banned.
But seriously, is that what it takes when an opinion is made?
Granted heated discussions are exactly that. (heated.) Is banning the way to solve this?
Also BTW, you should know by now, that I like you Clint (for others please don't bother with the sick mind)
I just think that banning should be used as a last resort (unless it is totally R-rated)



I just say can't we all just NOT get along.!!!!!!!!!!!!

J/K'ing




On a unrelated note, Hey thanks Buck. That was a great read. On the HSU. (ala: Ron Stimpson)
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/diy-11-sonotube-subwoofer-september-99.html#legs
Pretty cool if you ask me.

 

[mulester7]

If your going to be using the Peerless XLS woofers you might as well get rid of your B4's. Those things Fs is 18Hz!

One of your canons would out do my subwoofer right now....

SheepStar

.....Sheep, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with 2 of these 10's....I love peerless in a two-way full-range, but not for this application....lots of excursion and watts from a sealed enclosure is what I want with the voice that a 10 gives up high....paralleled dual voice-coils getting hit with 1250 potential 2 ohm bullets....not strapping the amp either to keep full damping factor, I know, I know.....bottom-cut at about 60, and top cut as much as 200 hz....could end up with a strapped K2 on one voice-coil, not sure, it's the voice I'm after here, will report later......

http://www.soundstream.com/sub/products_subs_vang_d.html

 

[Takeereasy]

This is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. All demo's, blind tests, and opinions are welcome. This is a forum, and thank goodness people have differing opinions. How many of you have read this entire thread 3x and have not posted?

IMO Buck says it all very well in this post. I think that Craig is to be commended for what he did. He had over a bunch of audio nuts to his own home, treated them well, put on the best darn demo/test that he could, and then wrote a very concise and readable article to sum up the event for us. He never claimed this was the holy grail of sub tests, this was just a fun night out for some (a night in for Craig) guys who got to demo a couple of subs in a real world environment. Were the tests perfect? Probably not, but he did a much better job than I could of done. It just seems like a lot of guys are being ungrateful or catty about the whole thing. This took a lot of time and resources for Craig to pull off, and he doesn't deserve to have a flame war on his thread simply because he had the time, resources, and inclination to do a head to head test of products most of us would love to be able to own one of, let alone test in this manner. I don't think SVS came across poorly at all.

Some of the problems you guys had, like the sample size being too small (this is the guys house, 6 people is enough!), not enough variety in the music selections (why should craig have to spend another buck fifty to pick up whatever crap from the discount bin kids were listening to last week?), and not enough time taken to dial in the subs (what do you want from the guy?, it's a home theatre, not a research facility). I do understand that some people had trouble with the methodology, and to be honest, I know when I'm in over my head and I can't debate said methodology at the same level most of you can, but couldn't about 5 pages of this thread have been avoided by simply PMing Craig and asking him to revise the post explaining his limitations or to at least address your concerns? Also maybe I missed it, but at what point did Craig ever say, Axiom is better, don't buy SVS? Even if you don't like the results, at least appreciate the effort.

Anyway thanks again Craig, I still enjoyed what you wrote, and I think it's great that you are into your hobby as much as you are.

 

[buffethead1984]

Are you kidding me??? First of all I doubt Craig testing a sub over a couple of beers is going to bring down the democratic system in the United States. Why do you automatically assume that something WAS hidden? Sounds like left-wing nut-job conspiracy theories to me . Stop taking this so damn seriously. You guys PO the guys running the site by attacking another guy that posts a nice article and when they say stop it you say your freedom of speech is being attacked? Seriously, get a clue. Also since when did freedom of speech extend to cover your right to post on a privately owned and operated website. You lefties need to re-read the constitution. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the freedom of speech as long as it's what you want to hear and f everyone else. Should you be allowed to question methodology and procedures. Of course, that's the idea behind this site, read some of the reviews.

Peace bro. All I'm saying is that there could be something amiss there, not that there was. As far as the speech thing, it's a private forum on a public system; this is still part of America man. Free speech applies. You right wing nazi's kill me; you want the "leave it to beaver" façade, and yet the big corporations control every move you make. Talk about bigots

 

[Duffinator]

How do you know nothing was hidden? Seems funny to me that this is a forum and it is here for people to voice their opinions, yet people aren't allowed to do that. How is this a waste of your time? It is your job isn't it? This is how you conservatives are destroying this country, taking our free speech away man.

Clint is just telling everyone to play nice. Keep up the good work Clint!

Buffethead, speaking of freedom of speech remember it's a free country as well. Nobody is putting a gun to your head making you spend time on this forum.

 

[buffethead1984]

Clint is just telling everyone to play nice. Keep up the good work Clint!

Buffethead, speaking of freedom of speech remember it's a free country as well. Nobody is putting a gun to your head making you spend time on this forum.

Right on man, I enjoy this place, I don't post much cause I don't have much to say. But to see censorship like that gets me down. Dudes here are are having a healthy debate on crap. So what? There is no swearing, or nasty name calling, let it go. People get offended way too easy. It's like bull. If you can't take a little heat then get out of the kitchen.

 

[Takeereasy]

Don't throw the word Nazi about so lightly, a lot of people in Canada and the US still aren't too crazy about that particular organization, I seem to recall some kind of trouble we had with that group.

it's a private forum on a public system; this is still part of America man. Free speech applies. You right wing nazi's kill me;

Really, well by that logic your home is a private dwelling attached to a public road. The next time I eat too many bran muffins I'll cruise by with a copy of Time magazine and air out my stinkables, and when you ask me for a courtesy flush I'll explain to you how you're trampling my right of expression because, like, man, I like, worked really hard and stuff on that. Look, by the way you talk I can only assume that you are the illegitimate offspring of Dennis Hopper. Jump back on the bong, throw on some tunes on windows media player, and enjoy the light show.

Edit, sorry, but I'm not crazy about being called a Nazi. It's just that people, especially younger people tend to forget what horrible, despicable things the Nazis did. They use that word to descibe anything they see as authoritarian or that challenges their views. Nazis killed 6 million people, most of whom were German citizens, because they couldn't fight back. It is so sad that you could compare that to a website admin telling people to tone it down. I still shouldn't have called some kid Dennis Hopper's son, but I stand by it.

 

[buffethead1984]

Don't throw the word Nazi about so lightly, a lot of people in Canada and the US still aren't too crazy about that particular organization, I seem to recall some kind of trouble we had with that group.

Really, well by that logic your home is a private dwelling attached to a public road. The next time I eat too many bran muffins I'll cruise by with a copy of Time magazine and air out my stinkables, and when you ask me for a courtesy flush I'll explain to you how you're trampling my right of expression because, like, man, I like, worked really hard and stuff on that. Look, by the way you talk I can only assume that you are the illegitimate offspring of Dennis Hopper. Jump back on the bong, throw on some tunes on windows media player, and enjoy the light show.

Man your from the great white north? I would think you people would understand everything. I dont smoke anything man. What's wrong with Dennis Hopper? You want to swing by with a butt full of bran muffins, feel free, everyone is welcome. I have no problem with you, and maybe I got a little deep with the nazi thing, sorry dude, didn't mean to offend. Just trying to say that there is nothin bad going on in this thread, just some debate, and thats healthy, people are getting way to bent about stuff dude.

 

[Takeereasy]

allright, I'm overreacting too, and it's not that I think that everything is perfect in the states, (or up here for that matter) I do think a lot of the US foreign policies are too "rigid" to say the least, and some of the new domestic laws are a little scary IMO. It's just that I don't think that this has anything to do with this website or that we should be Hijacking Craig's thread and arguing with him over what he could have done better. I also don't think we should bust the mods chops too hard for trying to express themselves when they think we're going to far, especially considering the fact that they own the site. I could have said it better. And by the way, nothing is wrong with Dennis Hopper, and I wouldn't judge you if you did inhale a bit of the wacky tabacky every now and then, not that I do, but it's not as big a deal up here as it is down there.