SVS PB12-Ultra vs. Axiom EP-500 Blind Test

[MacManNM]

I apologize for Jeff's mistaken DBT title. He's new at this hobby, but he's really an intelligent guy. He's catching on very quickly, too. Still, citing this mistake is kinda weak. As I said, Craig has not called it a DBT.

I appreciate the admonishment to look up one of hundreds of 'human hearing studies' that prove that a human can't remember what the sub he listened to 15 minutes ago sounds like, but you can see why I wouldn't do that. Well, no, you wouldn't. It's because there is no such study, let alone hundreds of them.

Please ask Ilkka if I ever attempted in any medium to discredit any measurement he ever took. Quite the opposite. I think he's very adept at the ones he takes, and have said so many times. But then, he'll tell you that himself. (I knew there was a splinter in your butt by your posts, I guess this is it, that is that 'we' have tried to discredit Ilkka, whose measurements clearly somehow show that one sub sounds better than another, so Craig has set everyone up to 'prove' it by rigging a...man, ain't worth the effort to type the rest).

Now, you are saying that a center-of-the-room placement and 'dialing in' are the critical mistakes in Craig's set up?

I just can't get over you arm chair haters. Never did anything to advance the learning curve. Don't know anything about the subject beyond what you googled an hour ago. Quick to discredit anyone, at a moments notice, over nothing.

We can keep this up until someone shuts us down. In the meanwhile, it would be good of you to say something that you can back up.

Bosso

The Illkia thing wasn't me, that was someone else’s idea, I just threw it in to stir the pot, he does that to me all the time (all of you here know him, I won't mention his name damn troublemaker).

As far as arm chair haters? What the hell is that? I have been designing and making measurements on equipment for almost 15 years.

The mistakes in the setup are:
1. Placement of subs. Since they are not of the same design, the placement for each unit should have been optimized. They are going to respond differently to the same location. If they were placed more in the center of the room then any effects from walls or corners wouldn’t change the character of the output and it would be a bit more even.
2. Dialing in the sub. Some subs don’t like to be crossed over at 80, depending on the loudspeaker/sub combo this is going to change. For instance, in my room if I cross my sub over at 80 with my loudspeakers, it sounds like crap, if I lower it down to 45 or 50 it sounds nice. I had a 10” sub for a wile that liked to be crossed over ~90 with those same speakers in the same room. There is much more to it. Since you need the loudspeakers on, to listen to the sub, that interaction is a factor. When you buy a sub you don’t just plop it down in the room and that’s it, do you? Of course not, you dial it in, you play with the position, the phase and the crossover points to get it to sound the best.
3. The delay between the subs, Roger Russels homepage has some references to the quicker you can switch the units the more accurately you can hear differences. I have read several papers on this but it was years ago and can’t seem to find them. Here is something that Mrty sent me that kind of touches on it http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_thread/thread/2d3d415422f4b660/67f6ac891b8f37f9?hl=en#67f6ac891b8f37f9
The same thing goes with any type of memory, look at 2 pieces of paper painted solid colors that are very close to each other. Look at them side by side, then put them down. Have someone show you one of the cards. You will be able to pick the color only ~50% of the time. Hearing is the same way.

 

[brian32672]

thanks. IMO, people who think louder is better are also the ones that only know how to drive in a straight line.

Actually I agree with this as well.
I had seen this post over in movies area, and thought what is this guy kidding.
I mean the absolute loudest I would want is 110 to a serious max of 118.
So this fellows #'s just boggle me. Still wondering if the spl meter is ok after these volumes.

Thought I'd chime in. I watched WOTW last weekend. Is sounded pretty good, had some great LFE usage going below 20Hz as the trucks drive past in the opening sequence where you first see Tom Cruise. As tripods first emerge from underground had great subsonics, and some of the distant gunfire later in the movie sounded cool.

I normally have my 3805 set at -7 for all movies
Speaker are LCR 8ohm Surrounds 6ohm, efficiency is 90db all round, levels are:
C 0.0
L -1.0
R -0.5
Sub 0.0,
Surrounds hover around -2.5

This setup gives, at the listening position, around 115db peaks. On the weekends I bump the sub up a couple of notches which gives me 120db-122db peaks(which was measured with the sub at 20% volume) I haven't measured with the volumes higher than that, but I watched Jurassic Park superbit version with the sub at 30% volume and the servo turned down to give it more leash and it must have been pushing over 125db at my seat That was loud, it had the whole house and a few of the neighbors houses shaking

I found the mastering of WOTW about right, now 'Underworld' was a hot mastered track, you turn the compression up on that one and even the dialog gets lowered.

cheers

Is this for real. Would someone actually listen to their system with sustained peaks of 125db.
I can see for (2 minute) testing, but sustained by any means??????????????????????????????????
And even with a superb sytem, would you want a wife or child to sit with you while you get stoned and listen to absurb loudness???? Not directed at you MAC. The question would be for all.

 

[MacManNM]

It can't be a DBT without any Data!

No graphs, No measurements, No nothing, NO DBT.

Craig and the people involved are not calling it a DBT. Its a BLIND LISTENING TEST....BLT! mmmm

Anywho, One thing that has been touched on, but never really put out there, is this,

OPINIONS!!! IMO, IMO, IMO!!

Put that at the beginning of every post!

The people partaking in this event offer their OPINIONS.

Use it as a guide line, but until you have measured all these subwoofers, you cannot argue either way.

Come on guys....

SheepStar

Sheep you are absolutely right. This is the point that I am trying to make, along with the fact that the placement and dialing in of the subs could have been done a little differently. Heck, it very well could have turned out the opposite if placement favored the SVS (I’m not saying one was favored over the other, just that it is possible that one sub could benefit more or even less from that spot), would that have been fair? No. Heck if they were both optimized, the Axiom might destroy the SVS. We just can’t tell.

 

[mulester7]

thanks. IMO, people who think louder is better are also the ones that only know how to drive in a straight line.

.....and, Silversurfer, and Sheep, and Mac, and everybody, a fistful of apparently sane and seasoned listeners, gave their, what appeared to be, honest evaluations of 5 or 6 subs....Gentlemen, the top of a sub's range is MOST important to me....sure, the whole picture has to be clean and definingly oscillated low, but the top of the sub's range is what makes it or breaks it....and doubles or triples the cost, usually.....differing opinions?....please......

 

[MacManNM]

Actually I agree with this as well.
I had seen this post over in movies area, and thought what is this guy kidding.
I mean the absolute loudest I would want is 110 to a serious max of 118.
So this fellows #'s just boggle me. Still wondering if the spl meter is ok after these volumes.

Is this for real. Would someone actually listen to their system with sustained peaks of 125db.
I can see for (2 minute) testing, but sustained by any means??????????????????????????????????
And even with a superb sytem, would you want a wife or child to sit with you while you get stoned and listen to absurb loudness???? Not directed at you MAC. The question would be for all.

Insane. thats my opinion.

 

[mulester7]

.....anybody got one of them Merlin Hogan Grotto's?.....I'm very curious about that one....a lot....sealed-box small cannons and mini-barns I believe would kick it's butt, but I suspect there would be some very good top voice in that front-firing Grotto......

 

[Tomorrow]

It can't be a DBT without any Data!

No graphs, No measurements, No nothing, NO DBT.

Craig and the people involved are not calling it a DBT. Its a BLIND LISTENING TEST....BLT! mmmm

Anywho, One thing that has been touched on, but never really put out there, is this,

OPINIONS!!! IMO, IMO, IMO!!

Put that at the beginning of every post!

The people partaking in this event offer their OPINIONS.

Use it as a guide line, but until you have measured all these subwoofers, you cannot argue either way.

Come on guys....

SheepStar

LOL, Sheep....these are indeed my opinions!

But a DBT doesn't mean anything like requiring some kind of scientific data. ALL it means is comparing two (or more) things without test subjects knowing which is which, and while trying to control variables. Charts, diagrams, etc, are not necessary. Nor is good design necessary, for that matter. It's STILL a DBT. Ultimately all you need to know are the parameters and the protocols. Then you critique the results, be they reports, reviews, charts, whatever. There IS no perfect DBT, by the way. So all who are looking for "truth" won't find it there, either. And the insulting and personal references used here on the reports look NOTHING like a reasoned or adult critique to me.

There is plenty of defensiveness and nitpicking going on and it's kind of irritating. As I said earlier, the 'event' (trying to use a neutral word to describe it) that Craig put on and the others participated in is what it is. And thanks to that (place your preferred word here) ______, we have some nice information on two subwoofers. You have to use your own judgement as to whether it needs to be filtered to be useful. But to insult the intelligence of this audience ("it will influence purchases") and the integrity of the sponsor, to cry "FOUL" because it's not pure science, or claim the 'report' subtly pushes a brand of subwoofer on people is nonsense.

 

[Sheep]

.....anybody got one of them Merlin Hogan Grotto's?.....I'm very curious about that one....a lot....sealed-box small cannons and mini-barns I believe would kick it's butt, but I suspect there would be some very good top voice in that front-firing Grotto......

Don't give up your B4's mule, not for a grotto....try a DD 1812...

SheepStar

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

There's too much mud slinging. This isn't that other site. C'mon guys. We're all edgy-kated, right?

Here's some food for thought...

If in fact the blind test was done as best Craig could have set things up (or any of us for that matter - which I trust he did), could it be possible Axiom simply designed the port correctly? Who here turns their SVS around backwards so the port faces the room? Hmmm. Watch the new models have forward facing ports.

These subs are just under $1200. There are a lot of other subs that can be had for this price. Personally, I'd take a PB12 Plus/2 over either of them - assuming I could get the better half to allow another end table in the room. If I was a 60/40 music/ht guy, I'd probably get twin stereo 15" Titanic kits instead.

This is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. All demo's, blind tests, and opinions are welcome. This is a forum, and thank goodness people have differing opinions. How many of you have read this entire thread 3x and have not posted? Dozens I bet. It's because someone has probably already expressed your opinion. So it turns out things do work out in the end, except if you are looking for a Miami Dolphin Grotto subwoofer. JK Mule. There's not enough ML dealers around for people to comment, but I've heard nothing but great things about ML's subs. Just get out the plastic.

PB12 Plus/2

 

[Sheep]

I agree with the name calling etc. That doesn't belong here.

For me, the AVtalk results on the 20-35 PC+ in 12hz tune are very promising

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=13935&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

Now THESE guys know how to test a subwoofer.

SheepStar

 

[shokhead]

Yes, MacMan is having a tantrum on AVS, too. His position there is that the only way to have a proper test is to listen in an anechoic environment.

I love the irony, Now the "SVS better win or we will shoot the messenger" guys want the LISTENING done 4Pi ... Gotta love THAT ...

Thats just crap and you even saying it makes me think maybe you fudged a tad in favor of the Axiom. Never entered my mine until you said this.

 

[silversurfer]

Gentlemen, the top of a sub's range is MOST important to me.....

BINGO!!! That is also the toughest part of the sub to make sound the best. Loud and deep is easy compared to making the upper end sound great...and that upper end is what your ears can hear the best.

 

[Sheep]

BINGO!!! That is also the toughest part of the sub to make sound the best. Loud and deep is easy compared to making the upper end sound great...and that upper end is what your ears can hear the best.

Upper bass is easier to keep clean then deep bass. Although upper bass production will make or break a sub, deep bass is by far harder to keep consistant with upper bass.

SheepStar

 

[silversurfer]

Upper bass is easier to keep clean then deep bass. Although upper bass production will make or break a sub, deep bass is by far harder to keep consistant with upper bass.

SheepStar

What do you mean by "consistant"?

Deep bass is easy.....you make the enclosure bigger, the tuning lower, and a heavier cone. Deep bass does not require a responsive motor/cone.

 

[Sheep]

Keeping THD and GD down is WAY harder on deeper bass.

Upper bass is no where neer as stressful on the subwoofer. This is why THD and GD always "rise" when the note in Hz goes lower.

SheepStar
Check my link onf the previous page. There are graphs showing THD(sum of harmonics), GD, Power compression, and THD(by component).

 

[mulester7]

Upper bass is easier to keep clean then deep bass. Although upper bass production will make or break a sub, deep bass is by far harder to keep consistant with upper bass.

SheepStar

.....good point, Sheep, the sub needs to be strong top to bottom....or, the notion of seperates can once again enter in....anybody gonna' make small cannons with me?....10 inch elements, about $250, Behringer 2496, about $250, and let your conscience guide you on power....Home Depot will make every cut for you on 1 inch thick whatever....I suspect they could even cut the circle out of your face-plates if you walk in there with your stuff together knowing measurements.....

 

[silversurfer]

Keeping THD and GD down is WAY harder on deeper bass.

Upper bass is no where neer as stressful on the subwoofer. This is why THD and GD always "rise" when the note in Hz goes lower.

SheepStar
Check my link onf the previous page. There are graphs showing THD(sum of harmonics), GD, Power compression, and THD(by component).

If they rise, then they haven't been kept lower. The rise is also allowed because with the deep extension it is tougher to notice the distortion

Those items you mentioned are mostly critical at loud volumes at the sub's limits, not at normal volumes.

Good transient response is much tougher for upper bass.

 

[Sheep]

.....good point, Sheep, the sub needs to be strong top to bottom....or, the notion of seperates can once again enter in....anybody gonna' make small cannons with me?....10 inch elements, about $250, Behringer 2496, about $250, and let your conscience guide you on power....Home Depot will make every cut for you on 1 inch thick whatever....I suspect they could even cut the circle out of your face-plates if you walk in there with your stuff together knowing measurements.....

If your going to be using the Peerless XLS woofers you might as well get rid of your B4's. Those things Fs is 18Hz!

One of your canons would out do my subwoofer right now....

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

If they rise, then they haven't been kept lower. The rise is also allowed because with the deep extension it is tougher to notice the distortion

Those items you mentioned are mostly critical at loud volumes at the sub's limits, not at normal volumes.

Good transient response is much tougher for upper bass.

Not really. The woofer has to exurt farther, thusly is moving for a longer time then upper bass. TR is directly related to GD.

SheepStar

 

[silversurfer]

Not really. The woofer has to exurt farther, thusly is moving for a longer time then upper bass. TR is directly related to GD.

SheepStar

Yes and no.

Let's use SVS subs as an example, and only because it is a good example.

With their model lines, PCi, PC+, PC-Ultra, or the box equivalents, what do they do to achieve lower extention and what do they do to improve sound quality?