SVS PB12-Ultra vs. Axiom EP-500 Blind Test

[MacManNM]

I don't think it ever was to be considered an "official" test. Just a group of guys having fun with a mutual love of the hobby. Some of you guys take this way too seriously.

A hobby that costs a lot of $$$$. As far as taking things too seriously, I don't presume to tell you your business.

Crossover settings taken from the AVS thread: "All were calibrated to 75 dB against 75 dB for the mains/surrounds and run 5 dB "hot" for movies. The results were completely compiled, and papers were turned in, before the identity of the sub woofers was released."

Level matching is worthless without taking into consideration room placement, phase settings, and crossover frequency. Who care if the papers were turned in prior to the identity being revealed, when the test was done wrong in the first place.

As with any speaker decision, it's ultimately up to the ear of the beholder, isn't it?

Sure, but when you can't demo a product beforehand, you must rely on other sources of information, when the source is flawed, it is easy to make a mistake.

 

[bossobass]

A hobby that costs a lot of $$$$. As far as taking things too seriously, I don't presume to tell you your business.



Level matching is worthless without taking into consideration room placement, phase settings, and crossover frequency. Who care if the papers were turned in prior to the identity being revealed, when the test was done wrong in the first place.



Sure, but when you can't demo a product beforehand, you must rely on other sources of information, when the source is flawed, it is easy to make a mistake.

I mostly refrain from responding to this sort of nonsense, but really...some folks should actually read what they're posting. This is embarassing.

Bosso

 

[craigsub]

Yes, MacMan is having a tantrum on AVS, too. His position there is that the only way to have a proper test is to listen in an anechoic environment.

I love the irony, Now the "SVS better win or we will shoot the messenger" guys want the LISTENING done 4Pi ... Gotta love THAT ...

 

[MacManNM]

Yes, MacMan is having a tantrum on AVS, too. His position there is that the only way to have a proper test is to listen in an anechoic environment.

I love the irony, Now the "SVS better win or we will shoot the messenger" guys want the LISTENING done 4Pi ... Gotta love THAT ...

No craig, I just say that if you are going to perform a test, that you do it scientifically, in proper fashion. Not post some half ***'d results from a test done in the same fashion.

And again, I have no love for either of the 2products tested.

 

[MacManNM]

I mostly refrain from responding to this sort of nonsense, but really...some folks should actually read what they're posting. This is embarassing.

Bosso

If it is so embarassing feel free to leave.

 

[Tomorrow]

A hobby that costs a lot of $$$$. As far as taking things too seriously, I don't presume to tell you your business.



Level matching is worthless without taking into consideration room placement, phase settings, and crossover frequency. Who care if the papers were turned in prior to the identity being revealed, when the test was done wrong in the first place.



Sure, but when you can't demo a product beforehand, you must rely on other sources of information, when the source is flawed, it is easy to make a mistake.

This test....it is what it is. It isn't meant to be anything other than what it is. You either take useful information from it or you don't. You ask questions and use any clarity to best benefit. You're trying to turn it into something is isn't. I'm sure if you want to pay the man to design a perfect DBT head to head test, matching all pertinent design/performance parameters, he'll do that for you. In fact, maybe he did...we don't know without asking. Oh, and if you like the results, maybe he'll charge you double.

I can tell you that Klipsch speakers suck and Aerials rule...because I've heard them both. No perfect science involved. Are you gonna slam me too because my listening test might influence someone to spend their money unwisely?

Life is short, Mac. Try to enjoy the ride.


Craig, it sounded like a great time. I'm envious of the fun had by all. Thanks for taking the time to share the evening with us.

 

[craigsub]

No craig, I just say that if you are going to perform a test, that you do it scientifically, in proper fashion. Not post some half ***'d results from a test done in the same fashion.

And again, I have no love for either of the 2products tested.

Look, you may be about as ridiculous in expectations as anyone in the world of audio. You posted on AVS that testing has to be with an A/B switch, WHILE the units are in the exact same spot. AND we need to do this while the test remains blind.

So tell me, please, oh wise one: How do you manage that little miracle ?

 

[Sheep]

I must say, there were some pretty harsh words about the PB12Ultra in 20hz tune.

Was it really that bad, or...what?

Anywho, Good stuff craig, you are a valued member of this forum

SheepStar

 

[Duffinator]

No craig, I just say that if you are going to perform a test, that you do it scientifically, in proper fashion. Not post some half ***'d results from a test done in the same fashion.

And again, I have no love for either of the 2products tested.

Craig and the rest of the participants in this test, thanks for a great review in a real life environment. It's not often that any of us get a chance to test two great subs side by side in our own homes. And it's the sound quality in your own home that matters, not what a sub sounds like in an anechoic environment, and I found a great deal of value in your review. I look forward to reading another DBT with some more affordable subs. BTW, my take on the results was the EP 500 beat the SVS Ultra by a little and in no way whooped it's butt. I'm sure either of these subs would be agreat addition to anyone's HT.

Reg. FD disclosure: I own an SVS PB12-ISD and love it!

 

[craigsub]

I am off for a few days on biz ... As the moderator of this event, I was not a part of the listening panel, though I was in the darkened room, handling the switching of discs... some thoughts...

1. The subs were used in the same place, and were EQ'ed to be within +/- 3 dB across the bandwidth. Phase was properly handeled, they were level matched, and the ports all had ample "breathing room".

2. I was surprised at the reaction to the SVS in 20 Hz tune. Blind tests can give results one would not expect.

3. The SVS in 16 Hz tune and the EP-500 set to flat were REALLY close.

4. The purpose of this test was NOT to sway someone's subwoofer purchase.

5. If you own either sub, you did well - both did an outstanding job.

 

[MacManNM]

This test....it is what it is. It isn't meant to be anything other than what it is. You either take useful information from it or you don't. You ask questions and use any clarity to best benefit. You're trying to turn it into something is isn't. I'm sure if you want to pay the man to design a perfect DBT head to head test, matching all pertinent design/performance parameters, he'll do that for you. In fact, maybe he did...we don't know without asking. Oh, and if you like the results, maybe he'll charge you double.

I can tell you that Klipsch speakers suck and Aerials rule...because I've heard them both. No perfect science involved. Are you gonna slam me too because my listening test might influence someone to spend their money unwisely?

Life is short, Mac. Try to enjoy the ride.


Craig, it sounded like a great time. I'm envious of the fun had by all. Thanks for taking the time to share the evening with us.

No that is your opinion. My only point is that to an unknowing person, this fun little experiment could be construed by someone that is not knowledgeable, as pure fact. As all the results tend to be in agreement by the "panel". This would indicate to someone that the Axiom is the superior unit, when in fact all of the 3rd party measurements I've seen indicate that the SVS outperforms the Axiom. Now, obviously sound quality, and measurements can't be correlated, so that means Craig's test is right, and the Axiom is better. I don't believe it. I believe the difference must have been large for all of the people to notice it, and since they all noticed it, it would indicate a flaw in the procedure. Measurements say that the 2 units should sound much more similar.

 

[brian32672]

Well I had PM'ed Mac. And I did not want to get involved. To me it is pointless, and futile.

Granted please take this as my opinion. I really could care less.
I am totally happy with my 2 Piano Black HSU VTF-3 MK2's (Yeah Rosewood was sold)

Anyhow, here is my PM.

I am not going to get in the middle.
But I will let you know, I 100% agree with you.
A test like that is flawed from the start.
I am saying the DBT is a load of BS.
The only true way for this type of test is to panel way more than 6 people, and have 2 identical rooms, and have each sub in the room level matched and crossed over at same level.
Then both rooms are to play the same material, etc....
Even if it were done anechoic, I would still think you should use 2 rooms. Because the time to remove one sub for the other a person will have already made a decision.
I still think subjective test is ok (but should be pointed out - Please take this with a grain of salt)
Scientific measurements are something more tangible...

Just my .02 Mac

Brian R.

EDIT:: Also for a subjective test to work with the above methods, I had also stated this to Mac.
There I posted my PM. But added the word 'way' to the part way more people than 6.
Really it should be no less than 50 unbiased people. IMO.

Anyhow, (this is no longer a PM) Along with unbiased people.
I would say it would also be better to have people that are from different backgrounds, different tatstes in movies and music, etc...
Also anyone that claims a golden ear (would be excluded from the test) We are talking about real world people buying this equipment. And I really feel that a test like this is, well, way to subjective.

 

[MacManNM]

Look, you may be about as ridiculous in expectations as anyone in the world of audio. You posted on AVS that testing has to be with an A/B switch, WHILE the units are in the exact same spot. AND we need to do this while the test remains blind.

So tell me, please, oh wise one: How do you manage that little miracle ?

There is usually more than 1 spot in a room that a sub can be placed (optimally). You should have used a pink noise generator on both units, optimized the position, and levels using a spectrum analyzer, then had the "panel" sit an equal distance from each sub. Then you could use an A/B switch and had quite a bit more fidelity in your test

 

[bray]

Then do it.

MM
I suggest you do just that.
When you perform your own blind tests ....... get back to us.
Until then, you have NOOOO right to call this test flawed.
I own neither sub involved but admire those who actually spend their own time and $$$ to give us results that we can either take or leave.
If I think something is flawed in a test (and if I care enough) I'll perform my own tests and confirm or deny someone elses.

 

[MacManNM]

MM
I suggest you do just that.
When you perform your own blind tests ....... get back to us.
Until then, you have NOOOO right to call this test flawed.
I own neither sub involved but admire those who actually spend their own time and $$$ to give us results that we can either take or leave.
If I think something is flawed in a test (and if I care enough) I'll perform my own tests and confirm or deny someone elses.

I do have the right. Just by the fact that it is a proven fact that sonic memory isn't more than a few seconds, and I doubt they could switch the subs out that quick. This alone invalidates the results, let alone, the fact that they are entirely different designs and placed in a room that will inherently color the output differently for each unit, when put in the same exact location. It's not that I care about either of these units, I don't own either, nor will I ever. The fact that someone out there could be basing their purchase on this review, and I just want to point out that it is nowhere near perfect, and a decision shouldn't be based on this test.

 

[bray]

Then do your own tests!

Get back to us AFTER you perform your own "perfect" tests. Until you spend YOUR own time and $$$, stop pointing fingers and appreciate those who do spend their own time and $$$.
If you have already done some tests and posted the results, show me, I would be interested in reading what took place. Really!

 

[brian32672]

MM
I suggest you do just that.
When you perform your own blind tests ....... get back to us.
Until then, you have NOOOO right to call this test flawed.
I own neither sub involved but admire those who actually spend their own time and $$$ to give us results that we can either take or leave.
If I think something is flawed in a test (and if I care enough) I'll perform my own tests and confirm or deny someone elses.

Honestly Mac, I would have not even replied to this one.

And for all, no me and Mac have never met. I just happen to agree with some of his points.
Actually I have debated Mac in other issues in the past.
I do dislike when people get on the case of Tom, and Peter. Specially when I never see a rep for Axiom come around.
And every once in a while I do go to the Axiom forums to see what is said. Then transfered to these forums from those elite Axiom followers.

I have nothing for or against SVS or Axiom.

I know I will get some crap for this one - I say the only way to go is HSU.






And certainly Mac do not reply to his second and same exact post.

Get back to us AFTER you perform your own "perfect" tests. Until you spend YOUR own time and $$$, stop pointing fingers and appreciate those who do spend their own time and $$$.
If you have already done some tests and posted the results, show me, I would be interested in reading what took place. Really!

 

[MacManNM]

Honestly Mac, I would have not even replied to this one.

And for all, no me and Mac have never met. I just happen to agree with some of his points.
Actually I have debated Mac in other issues in the past.
I do dislike when people get on the case of Tom, and Peter. Specially when I never see a rep for Axiom come around.
And every once in a while I do go to the Axiom forums to see what is said. Then transfered to these forums from those elite Axiom followers.

I have nothing for or against SVS or Axiom.

I know I will get some crap for this one - I say the only way to go is HSU.






And certainly Mac do not reply to his second and same exact post.

Aw, gee wizz gosh darn it bri, come on. I never get to have any fun

 

[Sheep]

Wow, this is getting out of control.

Craig,

Is it possible to do ground plain tests with these 2 subwoofers?

I personally feel In-room effects change for each room, but, it does give you a better idea of the subwoofer real performance.

Thanks,
SheepStar

 

[Duffinator]

EDIT:: Also for a subjective test to work with the above methods, I had also stated this to Mac.
There I posted my PM. But added the word 'way' to the part way more people than 6.
Really it should be no less than 50 unbiased people. IMO.

Brian, this really gets off tangent with the statistical significance of a random sample. Not sure what that would prove anyway as audio preferences are so subjective and personal. I've never seen any reviews/tests done this way before.

Mac, do you have a link for a sub review you can share with us that uses the methodology you previously described? We've all seen plenty of reviews that take measurements of subs but I'm referring to a DBT using separate rooms and all. Thanks.