Subwoofer Product and or placement recommendation

[Capt'n_Ron]

Room is 2700 Cu/ft. rectangular shape.
front wall corner subwoofer placement is not an option due to room width and main speaker location.
Usage 70% movies and 30% music.
Budget, want to stay below 1500 delivered.

Considering a mid wall sub possibly a HSU VTF-TN1
or
Front wall placement inside of either the Left or Right main below the FP screen. This would have to be a smaller VTF3 MK5 HP

Appreciated any input. Thanks

 

[Wardog555]

Nobody can say where to place a subwoofer as you need to test and measure each location.
Under no circumstances do you ever go with a smaller subwoofer based on where you want to place it. This doesn't work in your favor for performance reasons.

 

[lovinthehd]

Might even consider multiple subs rather than a single. Positioning in your room would be hard to guess at. Old saying that subs work best where they need to go, not necessarily where you need them to go The Hsu subs you mention are quite good in any case.

 

[shadyJ]

Room is 2700 Cu/ft. rectangular shape.
front wall corner subwoofer placement is not an option due to room width and main speaker location.
Usage 70% movies and 30% music.
Budget, want to stay below 1500 delivered.

Considering a mid wall sub possibly a HSU VTF-TN1
or
Front wall placement inside of either the Left or Right main below the FP screen. This would have to be a smaller VTF3 MK5 HP

Appreciated any input. Thanks

I would look at multiple subs if possible. Maybe 2 VTF-2 mk5s if possible? That would be a killer setup and potentially have a better room response than a single sub.

 

[Capt'n_Ron]

I would look at multiple subs if possible. Maybe 2 VTF-2 mk5s if possible? That would be a killer setup and potentially have a better room response than a single sub.

yes that would be an option, concerned about chuffing though. I had a single monoprice ported 12" sub and it was underwhelming in the space. I was considering stretching the budget for 2 vtf-3 mk5 hp for duals.

I will try that in the REW simulator for alternate options.

 

[shadyJ]

yes that would be an option, concerned about chuffing though. I had a single monoprice ported 12" sub and it was underwhelming in the space. I was considering stretching the budget for 2 vtf-3 mk5 hp for duals.

I will try that in the REW simulator for alternate options.

Two VTF-3 mk5s would be pretty insane. You would have a ton of headroom for sure.

 

[Capt'n_Ron]

I think I can get by with one sub for know. At least willing to try that first due to budgeting. the rew simulator did confirm that from 30hz down the response gets smoother with dual subs. dual subs would likely rule out any potential chuffing issue due to room gain.

 

[highfigh]

I think I can get by with one sub for know. At least willing to try that first due to budgeting. the rew simulator did confirm that from 30hz down the response gets smoother with dual subs. dual subs would likely rule out any potential chuffing issue due to room gain.

Don't place it at the middle of any wall.

Chuffing comes from excessive air velocity in the cabinet's vent/port, not room placement.

Or, it can be caused by everything exceeding expectations.

 

[Capt'n_Ron]

I thought bad room placement would require more gain, in essence trying to fix the problem with the volume knob.

REW says a rear corner placement is best for me. mid wall is a no go for me, says REW..

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I thought bad room placement would require more gain, in essence trying to fix the problem with the volume knob.

REW says a rear corner placement is best for me. mid wall is a no go for me, says REW..

The problem is you can’t boost a null created by the room/placement. A null is basically a vacuum, and turning up the gain will increase output, but you won’t know it at the MLP. Everywhere else in the room and house will definitely get the extra output, and you’ll essentially use up all of your headroom and possibly destroy your sub/s.
Phase nulls, can usually be dealt with by using phase/delay/distance tweaks.

 

[Capt'n_Ron]

The problem is you can’t boost a null created by the room/placement. A null is basically a vacuum, and turning up the gain will increase output, but you won’t know it at the MLP. Everywhere else in the room and house will definitely get the extra output, and you’ll essentially use up all of your headroom and possibly destroy your sub/s.
Phase nulls, can usually be dealt with by using phase/delay/distance tweaks.

thanks for clarifying that!

 

[highfigh]

I thought bad room placement would require more gain, in essence trying to fix the problem with the volume knob.

REW says a rear corner placement is best for me. mid wall is a no go for me, says REW..

Regardless of what REW shows, you still need to decide if it sounds best and one thing REW can't deal with is the question "What happens to the sound if I move 12" in any direction?". REW uses one mic, we have two ears and our brain does a lot of error management. Our hearing also tells us when problems exist, whether we can define it/them, or not.

Phase cancellations, as William mentioned, can't be removed with gain/level, although delaying the sound from one source can. If you use an AVR with Audyssey, set the distance increment to the smallest available and adjust it one increment at a time. Denon uses 1 foot and .1 foot- when I used an AVR, I messed with that frequently, basically to train myself to hear the differences and I would watch the response on the screen while using REW, etc. Subwoofers with a variable phase control rather than a 0°/180° switch can only be correct 50% of the time unless speakers are moved, the listener moves or the room is treated.

In my case, the room's problems caused me to build a new set of speakers and when that wasn't quite good enough, I needed to deal with the reflections with acoustic panels. Comments that they're unnecessary aside, they did a great job of removing the phase cancellations. I didn't even bother to use my subwoofer (it was a long evaluation period where I wasn't even bothered by what the sub wasn't providing) until about the middle of last year. Oddly enough, I had to do almost nothing to get it to blend with the main speakers but I did use REW/other RTA apps when placing the panels and making sure the sub/system response was smooth. Ultimately, the sound is most important, but if it can't be placed in front, it may require some trial & error testing to find 'the spot'.

 

[Teetertotter?]

Buy a Subwoofer and play with it at different locations. Good luck. Have fun!
placement of subwoofer - Search

 

[lovinthehd]

Regardless of what REW shows, you still need to decide if it sounds best and one thing REW can't deal with is the question "What happens to the sound if I move 12" in any direction?". REW uses one mic, we have two ears and our brain does a lot of error management. Our hearing also tells us when problems exist, whether we can define it/them, or not.

You can use multiple mic positions, or even a moving mic method....

 

[highfigh]

You can use multiple mic positions, or even a moving mic method....

I know, but it still doesn't let someone know how it sounds because it only has the one mic- I haven't seen that anyone has used binaural mics for RTA but it could be interesting.

 

[lovinthehd]

I know, but it still doesn't let someone know how it sounds because it only has the one mic- I haven't seen that anyone has used binaural mics for RTA but it could be interesting.

The two ear thing isn't really much of a thing IMO.

 

[highfigh]

The two ear thing isn't really much of a thing IMO.

It's all very tweaky, but the effect is related to frequency and distance to the sound source. If the delay caused by someone turning their head 45°-90° with the distance changing 4"-8" to the speakers, the range from about 1200Hz to the top of normal hearing will be affected by phase cancelation. In a large room with greater distance to the speakers, it's not a problem but with less distance, it can be.

I'm not claiming to have special hearing ability, but once I heard and experienced the sensation from turning a speaker's cone 90° to my forward line of sight, I couldn't unhear it- this is the reason I treated my room and built the speakers I'm using now. It's very irritating when phase causes problems but I no longer have the problem.

 

[Capt'n_Ron]

I'm back with another question for the bass experts.
would a pair of RSL 12S be sufficient to pressurize a 2500 cubic foot room and watch movies like edge of tomorrow or blade runner without fear of chuffing? how much headroom would be left over?
My normal listening volume would not be greater than 85db, likely less.
This would shave about 700 off the price tag. I'm sure the TN1 would offer more headroom, but am I close to running out of steam with the RSL par?
thanks,

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm back with another question for the bass experts.
would a pair of RSL 12S be sufficient to pressurize a 2500 cubic foot room and watch movies like edge of tomorrow or blade runner without fear of chuffing? how much headroom would be left over?
My normal listening volume would not be greater than 85db, likely less.
This would shave about 700 off the price tag. I'm sure the TN1 would offer more headroom, but am I close to running out of steam with the RSL par?
thanks,

With listening levels like that, I think you’d find the 12s to be very good, and at that level, you wouldn’t probably have any pressurization anyways. Maybe if the room was sealed.
IMO, using EOT as a demo is ridiculous, unless you have some super capable subs, and it’s only about ten seconds worth of the intro. But that’s on the BD version, and I believe subsequent versions have been filtered. I’ve experienced it before in a system that had devastators and other bass arrays. Meh, it’s nothing I can’t do with the tone generator on my phone, or YouTube, and certainly wouldn’t make my purchase based on the ability to play that track. Lol.
BR2049 will do nicely for you on the 12s too, and it’s a great track all the way around. I can’t remember the numbers off hand but @shadyJ has tested the 12s and might have some insight.
One question would be. How hot do you like your subs? I think a normalish 5-6db you’d be just fine. Just know you’re not using 21” subs from RBH or PSA etc. For chuffing, I probably wouldn’t worry about that too much unless you’re demoing some crazy shitt, as the rest of the track will probably cover it up.
You could run one or both near field(NF) to help.

 

[Capt'n_Ron]

With listening levels like that, I think you’d find the 12s to be very good, and at that level, you wouldn’t probably have any pressurization anyways. Maybe if the room was sealed.
IMO, using EOT as a demo is ridiculous, unless you have some super capable subs, and it’s only about ten seconds worth of the intro. But that’s on the BD version, and I believe subsequent versions have been filtered. I’ve experienced it before in a system that had devastators and other bass arrays. Meh, it’s nothing I can’t do with the tone generator on my phone, or YouTube, and certainly wouldn’t make my purchase based on the ability to play that track. Lol.
BR2049 will do nicely for you on the 12s too, and it’s a great track all the way around. I can’t remember the numbers off hand but @shadyJ has tested the 12s and might have some insight.
One question would be. How hot do you like your subs? I think a normalish 5-6db you’d be just fine. Just know you’re not using 21” subs from RBH or PSA etc. For chuffing, I probably wouldn’t worry about that too much unless you’re demoing some crazy shitt, as the rest of the track will probably cover it up.
You could run one or both near field(NF) to help.

thanks for your input.. the room is sealable with a double door. I am not expecting to get perlisten type performance here, just a very good good showing. I am hoping to get very good mid-bass punch performance and pressurize the room to some degree.
curious to here @shadyJ has to say here. would rather not pay for headroom that I dont need.