Starke Sound Fiera4 4CH Amplifier Does It Meet Power Spec?

Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Hey man, I'm just trying to warn people of their track record. Buying an amp is a lot of money for some people. You needn't make things so personal.
While that wasn’t a good situation, I was aware of what was going on in the background. I had one in for review. Before Amir had ever measured it, I had taken preliminary measurements and it didn’t reach spec for me either. I contacts the engineer behind the amp as well as Starke to ask if the amp could be defective or if I had measured something wrong. Before I even had a reply, the ASR review came out. I feel pretty confident from my knowledge of the engineer behind the amp that he was not trying to scam anyone. I also don’t think Starke was. I believe this was a matter of them taking the wattage claims of the spec sheet and using that for the advertisements instead of the actual power of the implementation they had. I can only speculate how they came up with those original numbers. But as you can see, the current one isn’t that much more powerful than the old one. It’s just more correctly specified.

there were also some issues with the old power supply and switching to the new one fixes ant chance or those old problems. It was a smart move.

I really don’t think there was any ill-intent. It wasn’t a good situation, it probably could have been handled better, but there was no intentional fraud being committed. My best guess is some over-zealous advertising and poor internal communication with the engineering side.

I have worked with companies that have no engineering in house, they rely purely on their Chinese ODM supplier. They often have no idea what they are putting out on the market. The stuff they get from the manufacturer is questionable at best.

Dan Wiggins is their engineer and he’s designed a ton of stuff I love and feel is well engineered. Besides his most well know XBL2 motor design, he developed the first Sonos speakers (which sounded Very decent for their size and price of what was then only $150), a number of really good studio monitors, headphones, etc. He’s very knowledgeable about manufacturing over seas and has done a very good job putting together some really good quality products for the money. The technical performance isn’t always the best that can be had, but the overall package is always a decent value.

I am curious to try the flagship Starke speakers at some point. I know that Dan knows how to make a good speaker. The last one we tried wasn’t great. But it also wasn’t really a Dan W. Design. The flagship line has Dan written all over it and I want to see what it’s like.
 
P

paulgyro

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for the review. You've done Starke's subs and now latest Class D amps. Now time for their speakers! Maybe start with their flagship?
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Thanks for the review. You've done Starke's subs and now latest Class D amps. Now time for their speakers! Maybe start with their flagship?
I need to finish my demo room before I can take on big speakers. I am totally open to it, but not yet.
 
N

nexus99

Enthusiast
They have a banger of a sale going on right now. $1199 for the fiera4 and you get a $200 coupon for a future purchase. Thats crazy.
 
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paulgyro

Junior Audioholic
They have a banger of a sale going on right now. $1199 for the fiera4 and you get a $200 coupon for a future purchase. Thats crazy.
Yah I was wondering if I should just pick up a pair to try.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
But is it just bringing the price to a more reasonable level? Sort of like how some list a "list price" but never sell at it....?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yep, here is one of those powerful PS that can be used if bridging is required:

SMPS3KA700 - Switching Power Supply Hypex 85V 3000W — Power Supply | Axiomedia
It has to do with the way these are bridged. As most know, an amplifiers maximum output is set by its maximum current and voltage. The higher the load impedance the more that the rail will set the limit. The lower the impedance the more that current will set the output limit.

with a BTL or bridge tied load, you double the voltage differential because the amplifier is run in differential mode. This doubles the power as each half of the amplifier is also now seeing half the impedance. Assuming sufficient current, an 8 ohm load would see double the output. But many then can’t handle 4 ohm loads because each half of the amp sees a 2 ohm load.

This amplifier is already a BTL design. So the voltage differential is as high as it can get. So they do a Parallel BTL version in which the amps sit on top of each other. This means the voltage differential doesn’t increase. You simply doubled the available current. It also means each amp is actually seeing a higher impedance, not lower. So suddenly the amp can do much more power into low impedance loads.

this amp was not current limited in the slightest at 8 ohms, was slightly current limited at 4 ohms, and obviously was very current limited at 2 ohms. By paralleling the amps in a PBTL arrangement you get the higher output into 2 ohms.
Hello Matthew, I would like to suggest that we avoid the kind of confusing or misleading explanation such as the seemingly popular/often reference to "...in BTL connection each half of the amp (or just the bridged amp) seeing half the impedance. In fact in BTL, the two "half" of the 2 channel amp still seems the same impedance. The simple fact is, in such connection the output voltage at the speaker terminals is doubled, vs the same amp but not bridged. I know you didn't start such misnomer lol.., but would like you to join me in trying to right the wrong, not a big deal but would be nice to do as it helps turn the tide in may be 50 years.:D

In reality such connection for bridging a 2 channel stereo amp could produce 4 times the output power if the amp is not current limited. That is actually more intuitively understandable because the bridged amp gets 2X the voltage so 4X the power. It would typically and more practically to be rated 2 times the power because of current limitation of most power amps that are not truly rated for 2 ohm (or even 4 ohm, in some cases) loads.

So power amps that are truly rated for 4 ohm load should be able to deliver close to 4X the power into an 8 ohm load. And again, in any case, we both know that the bridge amp still sees the same 8 ohm load, you get more power output because of the higher available voltage at the speaker terminal. It should be easy for even non technical people to understand when you put two 1.5 V battery in series you get 3 V. Too bad, in the audio world people seemed to want to find some seemingly smart way to explain things when it really doesn't.
The term RMS power, or 100 W RMS is another example, that started as something very wrong technically but as more people doing the same, hearsay etc., it ended being accepted as the norm, another misnomer.

I can create a 2 ohm load with my resisters but I need to wire them into a voltage divider because the QA devices I use can’t handle the voltage it would get from a 2 ohm load at that power output level. Since I only have 8 ohm resistors it’s not possible to do that. So I need to buy some 2 ohm resistors as well to create the 2 ohm load (parallel series wired). I didn’t see a reason to test it though. It had already been tested and I trusted who tested it.
Agreed, that's too much work for little gain, not worth it. Personally I wouldn't bridge such amps unless I have the schematics to see what kind of output devices are used, and also the power supply specs.

I would definitely feel safe and good to bridge amps such as the 100 W rated class AB Benchmark AHB2 that uses a form of switching power supply, yet it could be bridge to output 380 W 8 ohms and 480 W 6 ohms.
 
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buckchester

Junior Audioholic
Everyone is well aware the company had a problem with the first generation amp not delivering rated power. AFAIK they refunded every customer that wasn't satisfied with the product and discontinued the amp. The new version meets power spec. AMIR likes to create a spectacle like he's a savior to the industry. He's not. He often never retracts incorrect test data on products (IE older Denon test reports) and makes spectacles to stroke his ego and satiate his following. As a result he's created a toxic atmosphere on his forum, one which I no longer participate on. Maybe cut Starke Sound a little slack for correcting a problem they didn't know existed with the product and that they are taking care of their customers instead of trying to vilify them.
Is it really well known? Maybe for some of you guys it is, but as far as I knew, they never admitted anything was wrong. Did they actually admit to their customers that the amp did not provide the power advertised? Or did they simply say they'll refund anyone who isn't satisfied? There's a difference.

I really don't think I was trying to "vilify" them. Just trying to point out their track record. Like I said before, it can be a lot of money for someone to buy a new amp, so those considering buying this amp should be aware of this, IMO.

Interesting opinion about Amir. I know you're not the only one who feels this way. While there may be some truth to what you say (maybe a lot - I don't know), I would still say he is doing good work. I would also wonder what would have happened here had he not reviewed and published his results of this amp. Would we have more customers that bought something that doesn't work as advertised? I'm thinking likely.
 
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buckchester

Junior Audioholic
While that wasn’t a good situation, I was aware of what was going on in the background. I had one in for review. Before Amir had ever measured it, I had taken preliminary measurements and it didn’t reach spec for me either. I contacts the engineer behind the amp as well as Starke to ask if the amp could be defective or if I had measured something wrong. Before I even had a reply, the ASR review came out. I feel pretty confident from my knowledge of the engineer behind the amp that he was not trying to scam anyone. I also don’t think Starke was. I believe this was a matter of them taking the wattage claims of the spec sheet and using that for the advertisements instead of the actual power of the implementation they had. I can only speculate how they came up with those original numbers. But as you can see, the current one isn’t that much more powerful than the old one. It’s just more correctly specified.

there were also some issues with the old power supply and switching to the new one fixes ant chance or those old problems. It was a smart move.

I really don’t think there was any ill-intent. It wasn’t a good situation, it probably could have been handled better, but there was no intentional fraud being committed. My best guess is some over-zealous advertising and poor internal communication with the engineering side.

I have worked with companies that have no engineering in house, they rely purely on their Chinese ODM supplier. They often have no idea what they are putting out on the market. The stuff they get from the manufacturer is questionable at best.

Dan Wiggins is their engineer and he’s designed a ton of stuff I love and feel is well engineered. Besides his most well know XBL2 motor design, he developed the first Sonos speakers (which sounded Very decent for their size and price of what was then only $150), a number of really good studio monitors, headphones, etc. He’s very knowledgeable about manufacturing over seas and has done a very good job putting together some really good quality products for the money. The technical performance isn’t always the best that can be had, but the overall package is always a decent value.

I am curious to try the flagship Starke speakers at some point. I know that Dan knows how to make a good speaker. The last one we tried wasn’t great. But it also wasn’t really a Dan W. Design. The flagship line has Dan written all over it and I want to see what it’s like.
Thanks for sharing this info, Matthew. Good to know.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
as for the implementation. The cheap Chinese amps are setup differently and with much weaker power supplies. Since this amp measured within spitting distance of the manufacturers specs for the chip I don’t think it could be dramatically improved. The difference in noise between what I measured and the raw chip is equal to the front end gain. It’s exactly as expected.
It would be great if you can review a couple of those cheap (well, relatively only) chines made amps. At the moment it seems that Amir is the only doing those. So any chance you could spare a few hours to test a couple?

Such as a $99 one:
Amazon.com: S.M.S.L DA-6 Power Amplifier Mini High Resolution DA6 Amp 70W*2 with Remote Control(Silver) : Electronics

DA-6 (smsl-audio.com)

Or that's too cheap to be bothered?

I am very curious about how such a 70 W amp would perform to replace my only integrated amp (NAD C326BE) for my LS50 based system. The 50 W rated NAD has more than enough juice for the LS50 (for desktop use) so if the 70 W rated Chinese amp can do even just half that, i.e. 35 W 4 ohms at 1% THD, it would be good enough for me.

Another one is the PA-5 but over at ASR, it measured well, much better than the Starke one's for sure, but there are quite a few owner's complaints on QA (apparently) related issues that I expected Topping must addressed/solved by now.

PA5 140W x2 Balanced Power Amplifier-TOPPING
 

lc6

Junior Audioholic
My bad on the spelling. Most people mispronounce his name too. I wasn’t saying it right until we had a call together a few years back

The amp doesn’t produce much heat so I suspect in the long run it won’t have a major reliability issue.

as for the implementation. The cheap Chinese amps are setup differently and with much weaker power supplies. Since this amp measured within spitting distance of the manufacturers specs for the chip I don’t think it could be dramatically improved. The difference in noise between what I measured and the raw chip is equal to the front end gain. It’s exactly as expected.

these TI chips are used in a lot of very high end and expensive powered monitors. Some of the speakers from Genelec, Dutch & Dutch, etc use relatively cheap TI or similar Class D chips. Those speakers all sound amazing and the performance I measured is really not bad. It obviously can be improved upon, but from a systems level, there are often far bigger problems to deal with than a little less noise or a little less distortion.

cheaper Chinese amps are a single module per channel with a small 70-100 watt power supply. This has a 1200 watt power supply and each channel is two chips run in BTL.

Bruno has actually said it would be his for someone to commoditize his amp. It could be done. They could be made much cheaper. Someone just needs to be willing to license the design and build them at quantity.

Tommy O’Brien had told me something similar before he passed. He had developed some small modules with really good performance. He didn’t offer them for sale. He wanted Someone to license the design and mass produce them. He designed them for a Sound United or YAMAHA to buy.
You have not addressed the poor PCB layout where electrolytic caps are right next to heat-generating components. This for sure will negatively affect reliability, even if those caps are rated at 105°C.

Regarding "the amp doesn’t produce much heat so I suspect in the long run it won’t have a major reliability issue," that is just speculation. Have you measured the amp's efficiency at various power levels and determined the actual heat dissipation in the unvented enclosure?

Regarding "cheaper Chinese amps are a single module per channel with a small 70-100 watt power supply. This has a 1200 watt power supply," a SMPS of 1200 W is a commodity these days -- look at the more complex computer ones to start. Also these "cheaper Chinese amps" already have built-in (as opposed to external brick) SMPS of much more than 70-100 W power (e.g. see the latest review of Aiyima A200 on ASR).

Regarding "each channel is two chips run in BTL [in parallel]," the obvious problem is that due to the very low impedance of the output stage, unless external resistors are employed, there is no reliable way to evenly distribute the load current between the two chips.

Regarding "with a BTL or bridge tied load, you double the voltage differential because the amplifier is run in differential mode. This doubles the power as each half of the amplifier is also now seeing half the impedance," this makes no electrical sense whatsoever. The chip output is differential by design, which means that each of the two output leads "sees" the entire impedance, not half of it. That is because the impedance of the sibling output lead is close to zero and negligibly small compared to that of the load. See schematics starting on p. 22 of the application note. With the same load, a differential output doubles the voltage and quadruples the power, unless a current limit, either in the chip or PS, kicks in.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Is it really well known? Maybe for some of you guys it is, but as far as I knew, they never admitted anything was wrong. Did they actually admit to their customers that the amp did not provide the power advertised? Or did they simply say they'll refund anyone who isn't satisfied? There's a difference.

I really don't think I was trying to "vilify" them. Just trying to point out their track record. Like I said before, it can be a lot of money for someone to buy a new amp, so those considering buying this amp should be aware of this, IMO.

Interesting opinion about Amir. I know you're not the only one who feels this way. While there may be some truth to what you say (maybe a lot - I don't know), I would still say he is doing good work. I would also wonder what would have happened here had he not reviewed and published his results of this amp. Would we have more customers that bought something that doesn't work as advertised? I'm thinking likely.
It's a double edged sword. AMIR created a religion around SINAD and boils down product performance almost solely on that. It's academic and not real world on any level.

We already informed Starke about the power issue on the older amp and were waiting on a 2nd unit to confirm if there was a problem before publishing gotcha test reports. We always confirm with manufacturers before publishing test data. It may take longer this way but it also ensures accuracy and proper representation.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It's a double edged sword. AMIR created a religion around SINAD and boils down product performance almost solely on that. It's academic and not real world on any level.

We already informed Starke about the power issue on the older amp and were waiting on a 2nd unit to confirm if there was a problem before publishing gotcha test reports. We always confirm with manufacturers before publishing test data. It may take longer this way but it also ensures accuracy and proper representation.
I think that's more user error to think that the SINAD ranking is the "religion", but in audio of course people tend to get religious about non-important stuff as well. You have to take all the measurements into account, just as with yours. Amir also reaches out to manufacturers and doesn't always get a response. Both of you are somewhat changing that feedback loop, though IMO. At least neither glorifies stuff based on advertising dollars or silly audiophilia gear....
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I think that's more user error to think that the SINAD ranking is the "religion", but in audio of course people tend to get religious about non-important stuff as well. You have to take all the measurements into account, just as with yours. Amir also reaches out to manufacturers and doesn't always get a response. Both of you are somewhat changing that feedback loop, though IMO. At least neither glorifies stuff based on advertising dollars or silly audiophilia gear....
Good points. I just don't have any good vibes about AMIR after the dealings I've had with him. He likes to point fingers at others regarding conflicts of interest but at the same time doesn't make it very clear on his own website that he sells Revel and other Harman products he reviews.

Bottom line I am NOT a fan of AMIR or how he treated Erin from Erin's Corner.

I don't want to hiijack this thread with this negativity and I prefer we stick to the topic at hand.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Good points. I just don't have any good vibes about AMIR after the dealings I've had with him. He likes to point fingers at others regarding conflicts of interest but at the same time doesn't make it very clear on his own website that he sells Revel and other Harman products he reviews.

Bottom line I am NOT a fan of AMIR or how he treated Erin from Erin's Corner.

I don't want to hiijack this thread with this negativity and I prefer we stick to the topic at hand.
IMO the problem is more yours than Amir's in this case (and Starke's for putting out such crap without checking themselves)....and you're getting roasted again over there right now, too based on your comments in this thread. Just sayin'....but I'd rather see all three of you get along :) You all do good work.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
IMO the problem is more yours than Amir's in this case (and Starke's for putting out such crap without checking themselves)....and you're getting roasted again over there right now, too based on your comments in this thread. Just sayin'....but I'd rather see all three of you get along :) You all do good work.
I really don't care what keyboard commandos do on their forum. It's their playhouse. Starke messed up for sure. I'm glad they fixed the situation. But some will continue beating them down. I suppose it feels good. It's not my thing. Had Starke produced another lemon, I would have cut them off. The fact that we've reviewed a few good products from them so far and they've issued returns to unsatisfied customers keeps them relevant to cover with our readership.

received_759881221941841.jpeg


BTW, it seems AMIR doesn't always publish if a product doesn't perform well. We give manufacturers a 2nd chance to submit new samples or we publish as is once they confirm our test sample works as expected.
 
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buckchester

Junior Audioholic
Well, I have a lot of respect for the work that both Gene (and his associates) and Amir do and I hope they all continue it for a long time. They are providing an invaluable service to the consumer. And I agree it's a shame that they don't get along. I think they both could have handled themselves more professionally in their dealings.

And from a consumer perspective, I think Audioholics should have been more forthcoming about Starke's track record. I almost purchased that last amp based on what was written about it on this website. But then I saw the ASR review. I emailed Starke numerous times about it asking for clarification and they never got back to me. So I purchased from another company.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I really don't care what keyboard commandos do on their forum. It's their playhouse. Starke messed up for sure. I'm glad they fixed the situation. But some will continue beating them down. I suppose it feels good. It's not my thing. Had Starke produced another lemon, I would have cut them off. The fact that we've reviewed a few good products from them so far and they've issued returns to unsatisfied customers keeps them relevant to cover with our readership.

View attachment 57706

BTW, it seems AMIR doesn't always publish if a product doesn't perform well. We give manufacturers a 2nd chance to submit new samples or we publish as is once they confirm our test sample works as expected.
He also publishes far more testing than you do. If he has his own reasons for holding some back, they're his. If you always review/publish what you put on the bench that's nice, but....
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
He also publishes far more testing than you do. If he has his own reasons for holding some back, they're his. If you always review/publish what you put on the bench that's nice, but....
The point is he and his fans accused us of the very same thing he apparently does too.
 

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