Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction?

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RMK!

Guest
Danny Richie said:
I am afraid you are correct. Just because I have heard differences in burn in time and thousands of others claim the same doesn't mean everyone will, and it will never convince the nay sayers of anything.

Though it would be nice to see this site actually post some real measured data on driver burn in time. The misleading assumptions found here and supported by this site are a disappointment and a disservice.

Good parting shot Danny, now get off the soap box and get busy on the Line Source speakers for Mark.:D
 
D

Danny Richie

Audioholic Intern
now get off the soap box and get busy on the Line Source speakers for Mark.
I am just waiting on everything to get here. I know that Mark's guys down in Colombia are working on the enclosures. I just answered some questions for them regarding them today. The ones being built in China might get here first though. If I don't think that the drivers will be here as soon as the enclosures do then I'll request that some get air freighted over. Hopefully there will be several companies exhibiting with them at the RMAF.
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
j_garcia said:
Maybe you missed the point of that...I've listened to many speakers, receivers, amps SS/tube/hybrid/vintage/digital, rooms, players, etc... to feel competent at hearing subtle differences. Nice to see that you seem to know what I hear.
I don't know what you hear. My question --derived not from any wild speculation, but from rather basic, uncontroversial facts about human perception - is, do *you*?

I can troubleshoot some car problems by listening too, but I better do a DBT first to prove that I am hearing a tire that is feathering because it might be in my head.
I do hope your knowledge of cars exceeds your knowlendge of human psychology.


Oh, well in that case


So what do Danny's measurements tell you? Is speaker break-in fact or fiction, since the numbers don't lie?
Did you read the links I posted by Mssrs. Dunlavy and Pierce. They believe speaker break-in is a fact too, for some drivers. But it's not a fact you'd want to advertise for your speakers.

How about Audioholics takes Richie up on his challenge, and sponsors a set of measurements of various drivers, taken in a manner agreed upon by all?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
krabapple said:
I don't know what you hear. My question --derived not from any wild speculation, but from rather basic, uncontroversial facts about human perception - is, do *you*?
WTF? Did I not already say I *do* trust my ears? Do you need to do tests to tell you that is you in the mirror in the morning? Do you need someone to slap you so you know it is your face? Why are we here? 42? I don't second guess what I hear. I've done my own tests and in some cases found little to no difference, so I do not simply accept what someone says, however I DO know that there are differences in various aspects of audio that I don't need to do a study on to verify.

I do hope your knowledge of cars exceeds your knowlendge of human psychology.
Did I claim I am now or ever was a psychologist or studying to be one? Funny how you don't get any warnings for your "clever" little comments; you must be very slick indeed to get away with such tomfoolery. Pompus arrogance.

Did you read the links I posted by Mssrs. Dunlavy and Pierce. They believe speaker break-in is a fact too, for some drivers. But it's not a fact you'd want to advertise for your speakers.
Why would anyone advertise this fact? Once broken in, there should be no further change over the life of the drivers, right? Auto manufacturers don't advertise the fact that the engine in a new car needs to be broken in do they? No, but they do tell you when you drive off the lot.

How about Audioholics takes Richie up on his challenge, and sponsors a set of measurements of various drivers, taken in a manner agreed upon by all?
Works for me.
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Speaker Burn In

For the benefit of everyone here I am going to print out the full response from Richard Pierce given in the link Danny provided. Bud Fried told me about as much on the very same subject, just not in the usual detail as Richard Pierce would.
Since I have never heard this phenomenon called speaker break in you will have to pardon my scepticism.
d.b.

"Well, there are those of us that will differ with you in this
regard, and none of us need to beg.

I have been responsible for the purchase, design, building, what
have you of several thousand times as many drivers as you, and
the data I have before me suggests something different.

There are effects from use, for example, reduction in efficiency
due to temperature rise, increase in compliance due to elastic
deformation of the surround, changes in the mechanical
properties of adhesives and cone material, etc., that are the
result of extended playing at moderate to high power levels, for
sure.

However, every one of these effects can be shown to be
reversible simply by removing the signal from the loudspeaker
for the time needed for it to reach thermal equilibrium with the
surroundings (minutes to hours), or for elastic deformation to
recover (seconds, at most). There exiwst no objective data to
suggest that there is anything to long-term performance change,
OTHER THAN WEAR AND DETERIORATION, to the break-in legends.

What break-in does occur in drivers occurs within the first few
SECONDS of operation, and this is normally done during driver
qualification and system testing.

Further, the sound and, indeed, objective measurements of
loudspeakers show significant changes due to simply evironmental
differences, such as changes in temperature and humidity.

No one doubts that you perceived there is a difference, but you
fail to account for a variety of factors that have nothing to do
with the loudspeaker.

The only data that would substantiate any claims of real changes
would involve direct comparisons between identical drivers that
differ only in their age. This, in and of itself, is a difficult
experiment to conduct if, for no other reason than the fact that
it's nearly impossible to find two identical drivers to begin
with.

On the other hand, it IS possible that the 4 sets of drivers you
have DID change markedly over a period of several hours of use.
After all, it IS possible that some drivers are defective in
this fashion."

The final statement makes me ask the question once again: Is it break in? or break down?
 
S

Sleestack

Senior Audioholic
Danny Richie said:
I am just waiting on everything to get here. I know that Mark's guys down in Colombia are working on the enclosures. I just answered some questions for them regarding them today. The ones being built in China might get here first though. If I don't think that the drivers will be here as soon as the enclosures do then I'll request that some get air freighted over. Hopefully there will be several companies exhibiting with them at the RMAF.
Gotta love the line source. All I know is I use the Epiphany 12-12s, and recently ordered their replacements... the 20-21s. :D I use them in a Tact room corrected system with Tact cornerload subs that allow the Epiphany's to be restricted to 200Hz and up. The setup is unbelievable and relegates my Andra II setup to multichannel. Danny, you know anything about these Epiphany's? ;)
 
D

Danny Richie

Audioholic Intern
Hey Dan, I have seen his comments before, and what is it his beliefs are based on? Where is his measured data? More opinions based on assumptions does not get far with me. Sorry Dan but drivers are not burned in within the first few seconds of operation.

Danny, you know anything about these Epiphany's?
Hmmmm, I think I have heard of those. :) Didn't those get a Golden Ear award last year or something?

I am glad you are enjoying them.
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
j_garcia said:
Did I claim I am now or ever was a psychologist or studying to be one? Funny how you don't get any warnings for your "clever" little comments; you must be very slick indeed to get away with such tomfoolery. Pompus arrogance.
Krabapple's arguments seem rational and not at all “pompus” [sic] or arrogant to me.
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
and the ideals we learned in OPRA Vol 4 keep rounding through yet another thread...
:rolleyes:
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Danny Richie said:
Hey Minwax, I have done a ton of capacitor comparisons and research using groups of people, etc.
Then publish this research for review by a credible set of peers, such as in JAES. Be certain the research follow a proper scientific protocol, otherwise it will never make it to publication, it will remain a pre-print.

You barely even scratched the surface regarding what it takes to make them sound the same (from a measurements standpoint). Still, differences in material used will have a different sound to it. For instance, I have had identical drivers made with different cone materials. Then built identical speakers using each of them. Measurably they look the same, but the sound is very different.
Driver 'sound' is based on the parameters already listed, and the impulse response can be analyzed to determine the specific bandwidth Q and frequency of resonances, which would give the drivers in question different primary 'characteristics' in signature, assuming everything else was equal. One can refer to the JAES published/peer-reviewed work by Toole and Olive on resonance audibility for specific correlation with measurements. You likely also had different polar responses for the different materials related to the inherent damping properties of the materials as the upper frequency range, which is operating in bending mode of the diaphragm, dictates the actual surface area used to radiate a given frequency. Also, the actual degree or absolutes of the audibility you perceived is in question, because based on prior statements from you, I doubt that you used proper blinded testing methodologies.

-Chris
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
j_garcia said:
All have said it was an improvement (one friend is a bit of a sound guy, does PA systems for churches, etc..., and I respect his opinion). The difference is subtle, but definitely worth it in my mind. Vocals are even smoother and the highs are a tiny bit more refined.
Yet, such differences disappear in blind testing using equal measured value parts. A very large scale DBT was done at two separate DIY events about 2 years ago, comparing electrolytic to high-grade poly caps. No statistically meaningful differences were observed under the blinded conditions. Additionally, no pre-existing credible perceptual research would suggest such a difference to exist.

-Chris
 
D

Danny Richie

Audioholic Intern
Then publish this research for review by a credible set of peers, such as in JAES. Be certain the research follow a proper scientific protocol, otherwise it will never make it to publication, it will remain a pre-print.
No way. All that research was for me, not for the education of my competitors. They can do their own research.

Also, the actual degree or absolutes of the audibility you perceived is in question, because based on prior statements from you, I doubt that you used proper blinded testing methodologies.
Are you kidding me? Do you think that every time I want to compare a pair of speakers, capacitors, or whatever that I have to set up some double blind test? Get real.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Danny Richie said:
No way. All that research was for me, not for the education of my competitors. They can do their own research.
Well, it is your research, therefor you have the right to do with it as you please. But to me personally, it seems counter-productive to the state of technology if you have scientifically valuable research results that you will not share, concerning the subject.

Are you kidding me? Do you think that every time I want to compare a pair of speakers, capacitors, or whatever that I have to set up some double blind test? Get real.
If you are interested in non-biased, reliable results, then it is non-optional, according to known psychology effects upon human perception.

-Chris
 
D

Danny Richie

Audioholic Intern
A very large scale DBT was done at two separate DIY events about 2 years ago, comparing electrolytic to high-grade poly caps. No statistically meaningful differences were observed under the blinded conditions. Additionally, no pre-existing credible perceptual research would suggest such a difference to exist.
I know all about those test. The testing method was flawed. Here is what happened.

They got a group of people together in an environment that they were not familiar with. They put together a sound system that none of the participants had heard before. They used questionably crappy gear. They played music that many were not familiar with at all. They played a complete track all the way through, made a cap switch then played it all the way through again.

No one had any reference for what they heard and could not recall any difference because too much time had passed from start to start and they could not recall the differences.

Prior to that Dennis Murphy got the whole thing started using two identical speakers. One was using cheap poly caps. I think they might have been Solens. The other used Sonicaps. His testing method was a little different, but I don't recall the whole thing. In the end every person all claimed one to be much better then the other, but I think he might have had one undecided. Seems like there were nine guys there. The speaker that they all picked was full of the Sonicaps.

I later did a similar comparison with output coupling caps on a D/A converter. I had a switch on the back of the unit that allowed me to select between caps. One was a Sonicap, and one was an Axon poly cap. All cap values were matched.

I was able to replicate the results from both Dennis's test and the others. First I played a complete song all the way through, made the switch and played it all the way through again. Most had no clue. It asked too much of them to remember that much. They didn't know the system. I didn't even know the system. It was at someone else's house. The music was known to some, but not to others... They looked at me like there was no way.

Then I played about a 15 second intro to a song. I played it four times straight and gave everyone a little bit of time to memorize how it sounded. Then I made a switch and many nailed the differences right away. Without me saying a word the whole group was spouting off differences. We tried it again with a different song. A few seconds of it repeatedly played, then switched. After a few times through there would be a consensus and they felt like that they knew which cap was which.

After that I could repeat the process on different pieces of music playing a few seconds at a time and the whole group could then identify if it was cap "A" or cap "B" that they were listening to. They had learn which cap sound which way. Only I knew which was which. Sometimes I tried to fake them out and I really didn't switch anything, but they figured that one out pretty quick. They were learning the differences and if they did not hear them then they knew that was no change. They were nailing it every time.

After a while they noticed what the audible cues were and without even hearing them both they could identify if it was cap "A" or cap "B".

You see one was cleaner, had a quieter noise floor to it and lacked smearing compared to the other. Pretty soon all they had to do was listen for that aspect and they nailed it. A single acoustic instrument playing an intro made it easy.

Then as soon as it gets too easy they are all bored with it and don't want to play anymore.

It is all in how you conduct the test. You can claim double blind this and that all you want, but when the group gets it right 100% of the time and in just a few seconds then it is pretty conclusive for me.
 
D

Danny Richie

Audioholic Intern
If you are interested in non-biased, reliable results, then it is non-optional, according to known psychology effects upon human perception.
Your not teaching me a new lesson in this field. Believe it or not I was once certified as a hypnotist.

Now, sometimes when I am working on a new design, I may have two different network configurations that both measure well. I build out a pair of speakers with each network and compare them. Just me, by myself. I sit and I listen. I don't bring in a parade of people and do a study. I just listen. I have no bias. I just want to know which one sounds the best to me.

Then I might bring in other speakers that I have designed and compare the new ones to an old reference or two. I might even try different caps or wire or whatever I think might move it in the direction that I think it needs to go. I might even start fine tuning by moving the component values around a little.

Sometimes I am listening for specific things or certain aspects only. A good sign for me is when I forget all about what I was concentrating on to begin with and get lost in the music. I might even get all goose bumped or moved emotionally. Usually those are indications that I have to put down the paint brush and call it a finished painting.

Sorry, it was late and I got to thinking and typing the thinking...
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Danny Richie said:
I know all about those test. The testing method was flawed. Here is what happened.
I had extensive discussions via e-mail with Bob Cardell during development of this test. I am fully aware that it is flawed, but Bob did not see it feasible [for whatever reasons] to implement all of my suggestion(s). But from what I remember, you are incorrect that they played complete tracks; they switched during the tracks playing(but optimally, a short repeated segment should have been used). I did provide partial critical review of this test some time back after it occured:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4948

I provided reference of this test, as it is one of the most popular ones done to date, and still no substantiation(s) of the claims made by certain audiophiles concerning capacitor sound signature(s).

-Chris
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Clint DeBoer said:
I just want to point out that I have absolutely no comment to make about this particular statement.

Ah Clint, you just did!:D
 
Tom Andry

Tom Andry

Speaker of the House
Clint DeBoer said:
I just want to point out that I have absolutely no comment to make about this particular statement.
Damn it! Beat me to the punch!
 
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