Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction?

[j_garcia]

It was the context of the comment that made it bizarre.

Point taken. It still has no bearing on whether or not his findings are credible or not, and attacking his credibility based on such unfounded assumptions is ridiculous.

Whether or not his speakers sound good is irrelevant.

How would it not be relevant? Toole's or Dunlavy's findings and opinions would more relevant based on what? How do you think people like this BECOME respected members of the audio community? By designing great speakers........

 

[krabapple]

WTF? Did I not already say I *do* trust my ears? Do you need to do tests to tell you that is you in the mirror in the morning? Do you need someone to slap you so you know it is your face? Why are we here? 42? I don't second guess what I hear. I've done my own tests and in some cases found little to no difference, so I do not simply accept what someone says, however I DO know that there are differences in various aspects of audio that I don't need to do a study on to verify.

So, the substantial body of scientific research, conducted for rather over a half century, that documents things like the fallibility of audio memory, susceptibility to small level differences, expectation bias, and a host of other forms of perceptual 'noise' -- none of that applies to *you*.

Check.

Did I claim I am now or ever was a psychologist or studying to be one? Funny how you don't get any warnings for your "clever" little comments; you must be very slick indeed to get away with such tomfoolery. Pompus arrogance.

You don't have to be a *psychologist* to be conversant in the facts of psychology, any more than you have to be an astronomer to be aware the the moon isn't made of green cheese. That's what edumacation is for.

Why would anyone advertise this fact? Once broken in, there should be no further change over the life of the drivers, right?

No,why would that be? What system stops 'breaking in'? Don't drivers ever wear out? The issue is how long are speakers in use before changes in them become audible.

Auto manufacturers don't advertise the fact that the engine in a new car needs to be broken in do they? No, but they do tell you when you drive off the lot.

Actually, it's in the owner's manual. But then again, there are sound engineering reasons for that recommendation -- unlike for speakers.

Btw, IME, when people start comparing their audio gear to cars, it's usually time to give up trying to argue with them.

Works for me.

I should have added explicitly that listeneing tests should be a part of the package as well. Because a key point is that we can *measure* differences far smaller that we can hear.

 

[krabapple]

You just can't keep it professional can you Clint? Why not just come out and say it if you are going to dish out some snide remark anyway. How many times within one thread can you prove yourself to be as immature as the average forum member?

From the guy who posted 'love is blind' when someone agreed with me. *Hilarious* lack of self-awareness there, luv.

 

[krabapple]

I don't believe in the big bang theory or that we descended from Monkeys either. Does that make a difference too?

No. It simply confirms my opinion of your critical faculties.

Cheers.

 

[Danny Richie]

Then burn the damn things in before you send them to the paying customers and be done with it.

I think I am already going the extra mile and a half by testing and measuring every tweeter that we sell and grouping them into matched pairs. That is a lot of added time and labor for a tweeter that we sell for $29. a piece.

There is no way I could burn in each woofer before it goes out. There is not enough time in the day. I sell several thousand of those little woofers a year. That would also add quite a bit to their cost. It is much easier to allow the customer to perform this task.

Are there any other speaker designers that you respect?

Yea, quite a few, and there are a pretty good handful of loudspeaker lines that I like too. Would you like a short list?

 

[randyb]

I think I am already going the extra mile and a half by testing and measuring every tweeter that we sell and grouping them into matched pairs. That is a lot of added time and labor for a tweeter that we sell for $29. a piece.

There is no way I could burn in each woofer before it goes out. There is not enough time in the day. I sell several thousand of those little woofers a year. That would also add quite a bit to their cost. It is much easier to allow the customer to perform this task.



Yea, quite a few, and there are a pretty good handful of loudspeaker lines that I like too. Would you like a short list?

I was talking about the speakers you sell not the drivers-if someone is buying the drivers they are assembling their own speakers.

Yes, I would like to see a short list.

Thanks

 

[Danny Richie]

No. It simply confirms my opinion of your critical faculties.

So anyone that doesn't believe we descended from monkeys is crazy huh? That sure says a lot about you as well.

 

[Dan Banquer]

Speaker Burn In

"There is no way I could burn in each woofer before it goes out. There is not enough time in the day. I sell several thousand of those little woofers a year. That would also add quite a bit to their cost. It is much easier to allow the customer to perform this task. "

All you have to do is reach behind the woofer and stretch out the spider and the job is done.
Now that you have all this extra time maybe you can contribute something important on loudspeaker issues like frequency response, phase, room treatment, linearity, compression, etc.etc.
But I guess that just doesn't fit the agenda of trivializing the more important aspects of loudspeakers while the trivial is enhanced beyond any relevance.
d.b.

 

[j_garcia]

So, the substantial body of scientific research, conducted for rather over a half century, that documents things like the fallibility of audio memory, susceptibility to small level differences, expectation bias, and a host of other forms of perceptual 'noise' -- none of that applies to *you*.

Check.

*ME* and a host of others who trust what they hear? This isn't about experiments, it is about enjoying audio, and that is ALL. I don't need to do a study to tell me I know what I am hearing. You know where you can put your check.

No,why would that be? What system stops 'breaking in'? Don't drivers ever wear out? The issue is how long are speakers in use before changes in them become audible.

Drivers will likely wear out given a long enough time period. What's your point? As Danny has stated, the driver reaches a state of equilibrium after some period of use, after which the changes are negligible.

Actually, it's in the owner's manual. But then again, there are sound engineering reasons for that recommendation -- unlike for speakers.

Similar principles apply apparently, as has been shown by Danny's data, which is why I made the comparison; though not to the same degree as direct mechanical contact.

Btw, IME, when people start comparing their audio gear to cars, it's usually time to give up trying to argue with them.

blah blah blah. So give up.

I should have added explicitly that listeneing tests should be a part of the package as well. Because a key point is that we can *measure* differences far smaller that we can hear.

Which is why I asked Danny earilier in this thread if those measured differences translated into any noticable differences in the sound produced.

 

[RMK!]

So anyone that doesn't believe we descended from monkeys is crazy huh? That sure says a lot about you as well.

I don't know about that but I was watching a documentary last night on Mountain Gorillas and one of them bore an uncanny resemblance to Gene DellaSala.

 

[randyb]

I don't know about that but I was watching a documentary last night on Mountain Gorillas and one of them bore an uncanny resemblance to Gene DellaSala.

The question then is would you say that up close and personal to either Gene or the gorilla

 

[Danny Richie]

All you have to do is reach behind the woofer and stretch out the spider and the job is done.

Ha, ha , ha. Anyone that can measure a driver knows that is not true, and my measurement clear show that is a false assumption.

 

[Tomorrow]

We seem to have run out of solid speaker break-in information, here, being capped now by an overabundance of testosterone and provocation. Personality parry-and-thrust should go to another thread. Time to end this one?

 

[AdrianMills]

We seem to have run out of solid speaker break-in information, here, being capped now by an overabundance of testosterone and provocation. Personality parry-and-thrust should go to another thread. Time to end this one?

Hm, I've heard it called "willy waving" by one moderator on another forum - it was the one amusing thing he ever said.

Strange how such an innocuous subject (and a very tedious one at that if we’re honest about it) as "driver burn in" can have such a personal impact on people - maybe that says more about the people than the subject matter though?

 

[randyb]

Hm, I've heard it called "willy waving" by one moderator on another forum - it was the one amusing thing he ever said.

Strange how such an innocuous subject (and a very tedious one at that if we’re honest about it) as "driver burn in" can have such a personal impact on people - maybe that says more about the people than the subject matter though?

I agree-but if there is a ying, then somewhere there is a yang and vice versa. I don't really think forums would even exist if everyone just agreed with everyone else.

 

[Tomorrow]

I agree-but if there is a ying, then somewhere there is a yang and vice versa. I don't really think forums would even exist if everyone just agreed with everyone else.

Agreement and disagreement on issues are great. But as the man said...this has become "willy waving". Now that's funny and exactly what is happening.

 

[zildjian]

We seem to have run out of solid speaker break-in information, here, being capped now by an overabundance of testosterone and provocation. Personality parry-and-thrust should go to another thread. Time to end this one?

I agree. That's why I referred to the OPRA article yesterday! There's more condescension & personal insults being thrown around than actual discussion of loudspeaker properties. I hope it gets back on track; I'd like to hear actual conversation about the topic without all the off handed jabs @ someone's intellectual abilities, hearing or spelling. Those attitudes need to be somewhere else.

 

[Revelator]

Anyone heard of Stress vs. Strain curves?

I long for the day that a speaker manufacturer who promotes speaker break in can tell me on a stress vs strain curve where they feel the speaker is operating at.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/doitpoms/tlplib/polymers/stress-strain.php

http://www.answers.com/topic/stress-strain-curve

http://images.google.com/images?q=stress+strain+curve&hl=en&hs=d7G&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

http://www.shodor.org/~jingersoll/weave/tutorial/node4.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-strain_curve

http://www.eng.uc.edu/~gbeaucag/Classes/Characterization/StressStrainhtml/StressStrain.html


"In the context of material behavior, a structural component is said to behave elastically if during loading/unloading the deformation is reversible. In other words, when the loads are released the specimen will return to its original, undeformed configuration." Please note, speaker material does NOT perform in-elastic therefore it follows this curve. Silly putty on the other hand will perform in-elastic but fortunately for us, silly putty is not a material used on speakers or they would sound like putty. Most speaker materials are a polymer and it is true that some, not all, are not linear however speaker materials operating at the stress vs strain where they operate ARE linear.

For just about any material speakers are made from all follow this curve. It's a simple one to follow. A material that is provided a strain (motion) will have an applied stress. By eliminating that strain, the material returns linearly to its original shape and distance. Moving a speaker back and forth keeps the material well within the linear part of these curves. In fact, it doesn't even begin to stretch the material close to the elastic limit even if you push it hard. Tiny motions back and forth do nothing over time since these materials are linear up the curve (increase in stress and strain - movement) and all the way down the curve. Where it starts it comes back. Period end of story!

If anything over time a material may begin to break down through stain and/or stress hardening but again a speaker is so low up the curve that it could takes decades for this to even begin happen, if ever, and keep in mind even then it's a degredation, not an improvement. Another way a material can break down is with exposure to moisture and humidity such as found in homes. Now, one could argue that any bonding material used on the speaker could indeed "break down" during "break in" and perhaps the break down of that bond could help improve the performance but my understanding is that most bonds are chemical reactions and break down on their own. If anyone is using a bonding agent that requires "break in" to "break down" then I'd question why.

I open up the dialog to any speaker engineer to show me where on the stress vs strain curve they feel a speaker operates and how on this linear curve it is possible for the material to "break in."

 

[Dan Banquer]

Speaker Burn In

Ha, ha , ha. Anyone that can measure a driver knows that is not true, and my measurement clear show that is a false assumption.

Well it appears you ignored the rest of the post in your reply so I think we will have to update the article "The Dumbing Down of Audio" with your wonderful contributions. It's pretty sad that I will be writing about how some manufacturers trivialize important facts and substitute non issues such as speaker break in.
d.b.

 

[krabapple]

So anyone that doesn't believe we descended from monkeys is crazy huh? That sure says a lot about you as well.

If not crazy, certainly stone ignorant of what he dismisses (hint: we didn't 'descend from monkeys' according to evolution-based models. That's a tyro's mistake if there ever was one.)