Soundstage/Detail from Amp or Pre-Amp?

[PENG]

Peng, that's a great example and I will personlly take it to heart when it comes time to shop for a high end pre/pro. I have a question though - when you initially "level matched only by hearing" it must have sounded mighty close to the same level.

When you level matched with a meter could you hear a difference, not in the sound quality but in the level itself since it should now sound softer or louder than what you thought you previously heard as the same?

Or did the metered level match simply show how far off your ears were to begin with?

Thanks

Larry

I promised to shut up and listen but I should answer questions.

1) No it wasn't close, more like 2 to 3 dB. I did it right in front of the preamp where the switching was done, so it was about 3 to 4 feet away from the speakers. That could have been one of the reasons why I could not get it within 1 to 2 dB. May be the real reason was because I did not use a test tone. I used music, some jazz stuff. When I used the meter, I also used the Denon's test tone.

2) Once level matched with the meter, the previously heard difference disappeared. We were comparing preamps so we did not bother pushing the volume nor did we worry about the dynamics, transients etc. We focused only on tonal qualities. Some time ago I did compare the dynamic capability between my H.T. and separate system by measuring the current and voltage at the speaker ends, in addition to using the SPL meter. The Denon/amp set up was able to deliver the same transient magnitude as my separates. I must report that my room size is only 11.5X18X9, with one 4 ft wide opening to the rest of the house.

 

[LHawes]

I'm not sure why you keep promising to shut up, I find the information very interesting and it is helping this rather newbie discern some important differences and will certainly help make some buying decisions.

As mentioned I have an ATI AT1502 on the way and unfortunately I have niether instruments nor test tones to truly A/B that and my existing HK 3480.

The HK puts out 120 watts per channel and the ATI, 150 watts and from what I'm learning, the differences I think I may hear may be mostly due to listener error or level mismatches and not from the amps themselves.

Still looking forward to the ATI and from what I have read it should be end of the line as far as my listening tastes. Then I'll perhaps focus on speakers.

Again thanks for the insight and information

 

[PENG]

I'm not sure why you keep promising to shut up, I find the information very interesting and it is helping this rather newbie discern some important differences and will certainly help make some buying decisions.

That's because I do not want to emphasize too much on "one may not hear the difference..." There are people out there who can, even after carefully matching level and then do a fair comparison. They may have sharper hearing sense, and in some cases it could be because they have high end source and speakers. You may be (may be not) one of those who can benefit from better built electronics with the equipment you have, in your own listening environment. You have to try things out. Thank you for listening.

 

[mulester7]

I moved over to a McIntosh integrated.

it sounded like a 3D button was pressed with the new amp.

The soundstage just widened right out (front and back).

There was much more detail, and even more bass (in a positive way).

I had very low expectations for this upgrade, the Mac amp is used and older than the Arcam gear - I had no idea what to expect.

I attribute it to the better designed Mac. The background is dead silent, which I would suspect helps in some way (detail, ambience...).

.....ain't it the truth, Cornelius?....Guys, imagine this....you're at a concert of your favorite solo singer....a house sound system is in place....you are recording the concert to listen to later in your home theater....you can either run just the microphone of the singer from the board to your recording device, or you can run the singer's mic from the board and about 12 other microphones placed all over the auditorium into your recording device....now which one is going to sound more like you are in that room on the playback in your theater?....

 

[mulester7]

and in some cases it could be because they have high end source and speakers.

.....PENG, I definitely believe this is a contributing factor....stop wondering whether or not you have, or don't have, some special gift of hearing....the differences I've been hearing you would have heard also....I regret to say it takes some bucks, but I bring Glad Tidings of Great Joy....there are used equipment markets......

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm not sure why you keep promising to shut up, I find the information very interesting and it is helping this rather newbie discern some important differences and will certainly help make some buying decisions.

As mentioned I have an ATI AT1502 on the way and unfortunately I have niether instruments nor test tones to truly A/B that and my existing HK 3480.

. Then I'll perhaps focus on speakers.

Again thanks for the insight and information

If you are going to take this hobby seriously you need to invest in an SPL meter. The analog from Radio Shack is popular as it is easy to find and works for what we do mostly. Also, there are a number of test CDs out there. Even that Rives frequently mentioned is fine for level matching. And, the left and right channel is very accurately balanced.

As Peng was discussing and as you can see, level matching by ear is the last thing you should do
There is a recent paper at AES(Audio Engineering Society) about accuracy of hearing to level match by ear and using different signals: speech, music, even pink noise, I believe. No wonder Peng was off so much with music

The ear is not very accurate contrary to what the 'golden ears' claim about its capability.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Whenever I do upgrades, it's always with an at-home, A/B comparison of new gear/whatever is to be replaced. I've purchased my gear lately from the internet, and I've gone through some lengthy trial period comparisons before keeping anything - never relying on memory.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear and as you must have read Peng's input, it is extremely important to accurately level match by instruments and proper test signals, not music. Then, my favorite, bias controls so your other senses, eyes, will not influence unduly and it will without you knowing it.

 

[cornelius]

I have some test tones and a Radio Shack db meter.

 

[PENG]

I have some test tones and a Radio Shack db meter.

I assume you have some really nice high resolution speakers too!

 

[cornelius]

I have fairly new pair of Ohm Walsh series floorsatanders and a pair of Sequerra Met 7.7 monitors. Hopefully they'll be good enough for the experiment.

 

[mulester7]

I moved over to a McIntosh integrated. This change was much less subtle. It sounded like a 3D button was pressed with the new amp. The soundstage just widened right out (front and back). There was much more detail, and even more bass (in a positive way). I had very low expectations for this upgrade, the Mac amp is used and older than the Arcam gear - I had no idea what to expect. I attribute it to the better designed Mac. The background is dead silent, which I would suspect helps in some way (detail, ambience...).

.....this was the statement of the thread....any of you who want to choose to believe those who only read reviews, go ahead....any of you who want to desperately try to defend your whiz-bang jenny-poppin' 50 watt a channel receiver, go ahead, this is America....McIntosh stands alone at the top of the food chain for me, because of it's ambiance-added live presence, and I didn't read any reviews to arrive at this conclusion....good grief, this gets old....people who have never owned anything past a receiver are posting telling us reviews they read say there's no reason to go any further, how ridiculous....someone tries to post saying they've found something with better sound quality that approaches live presence over a receiver, and here comes our resident goofy waving his review readings....hopefully that situation is recognized for exactly what it is....again, this has gotten old....there's a used market for McIntosh, which lasts forever....THERE'S your "live presence" sound quality....try some used McIntosh, and you'll be done....go for AUDIO, and the video will take care of itself......

 

[wire]

.....this was the statement of the thread....any of you who want to choose to believe those who only read reviews, go ahead....any of you who want to desperately try to defend your whiz-bang jenny-poppin' 50 watt a channel receiver, go ahead, this is America....McIntosh stands alone at the top of the food chain for me, because of it's ambiance-added live presence, and I didn't read any reviews to arrive at this conclusion....good grief, this gets old....people who have never owned anything past a receiver are posting telling us reviews they read say there's no reason to go any further, how ridiculous....someone tries to post saying they've found something with better sound quality that approaches live presence over a receiver, and here comes our resident goofy waving his review readings....hopefully that situation is recognized for exactly what it is....again, this has gotten old....there's a used market for McIntosh, which lasts forever....THERE'S your "live presence" sound quality....try some used McIntosh, and you'll be done....go for AUDIO, and the video will take care of itself......

No Doubt , like i said before , Mcintosh is good stuff and has been around along time to prove it . I think they are built like tanks also if i remeber correctly , they are heavy .

 

[mulester7]

.....and I apologize for the word goofy....it's obvious there are a whole lot more receiver guys at this site than seperates owners, past or present, and always will be....consider me a voice crying in the wilderness for seperates......hey, if that 5 channel decoder from stereo signals is worth it to you, there it is, we're done....that's the magic....a 5.1 decoder....I personally can be knocked out cold from stereo down both sides and get a decoder later, maybe....and being knocked out comes from the magic in McIntosh's highs....that's where live presence ambiance MUST be....real life tinklings of wind chimes and stuff, high and distinguishable....I've been on a pilgrimage of amps, some of you are aware of that, and it ended up being a study in the speakered Highs of the signals....used the McIntosh pre for all signals....later compared another pre to mine....it was hand's-down mine....I'll be honest, TDeluce, our speakers are probably pretty different....the Earthquake didn't grab me right off the bat except for tons of power....a really large transformer is reputed to put out distortion in the highs....and it was the highs that finally got to me....that was when I changed to the McIntosh amp WITH, the Mc pre, and I heard magic in the highs that really made it live presence....and to be honest, I don't know how much of that is my speakers....speakers that are reputed to be a bit laid-back I would think means the highs are rolled off sooner....the Crown K2's sounded much more "live" to me than the Earthquake, and made my speakers be amazingly clean....very decent highs also, but not the highs of Mc.....

.....edit....and as to the highs of McInSplat....I went to the audio section in my Wal-Mart, found their most powerful McInSplat amp, hooked it up to a McInSplat pre-amp, selected the biggest speakers they had, looked like refrigerators, cranked that 43% distortion McInSplat four full twists of the volume knob, and had people in the front of the store diving out windows that already had the glass gone....YEAH, I said wrap it up....I'm gonna' broadcast it over corn fields for crows........

 

[PENG]

mule, you keep raving about the highs of the Mc amps. Are the highs detailed yet smooth as opposed to being bright? How do they reproduce the sound of strings, especially the violin? Violin is one of the instruments that I found sound more smooth with a good phono cartridge such as the Stanton 681 series moving iron cartridges.

Thanks.

 

[mulester7]

mule, you keep raving about the highs of the Mc amps. Are the highs detailed yet smooth as opposed to being bright?

How do they reproduce the sound of strings, especially the violin? Violin is one of the instruments that I found sound more smooth with a good phono cartridge such as the Stanton 681 series moving iron cartridges.

Thanks.

.....PENG, yes on the first one, wonderfully on the second one, correctly damped speakers on both....when McIntosh first came into my life, I had two main speakers that looked like Cornwalls, and were made by a friend in the mechanical dept....I won those in a raffle in '81....they were cabinet grade excellent, he was good on the table saw taking out grooves for walls to be locked in, but he put cheap elements in them I later changed....real small magnet on a 15 woofer....cone mid that actually was inefficient accordingly....soft piezo's across the top....but even with the cheap elements still in them, the Mc purchases, C-26 and MC2105, brought the speakers to life, and I didn't have a clue why, but all listeners raved, especially my wife and kids who were used to the receiver pushing the speakers....McIntosh gives an ambiance that makes it sound live....now there it is, Peng....arrest me if you have to.....

 

[PENG]

.....PENG, yes on the first one, wonderfully on the second one, correctly damped speakers on both....when McIntosh first came into my life, I had two main speakers that looked like Cornwalls, and were made by a friend in the mechanical dept....I won those in a raffle in '81....they were cabinet grade excellent, he was good on the table saw taking out grooves for walls to be locked in, but he put cheap elements in them I later changed....real small magnet on a 15 woofer....cone mid that actually was inefficient accordingly....soft piezo's across the top....but even with the cheap elements still in them, the Mc purchases, C-26 and MC2105, brought the speakers to life, and I didn't have a clue why, but all listeners raved, especially my wife and kids who were used to the receiver pushing the speakers....McIntosh gives an ambiance that makes it sound live....now there it is, Peng....arrest me if you have to.....

Well mule, McIntosh owners do have bragging, and raving rights. You got me really tempted, regardless of my lowly Veritas. I have been going after that smooth violin sound for years. That's why I have been day dreaming about the B&W 802D (diamond tweeter), adding a pair of Mc may just seal a real deal. I am not convinced that high end amps can wake up less than mid to mid/high end speakers. I would rather believe your speakers are good and have high resolution to start with, may be they are just too insensitive/inefficient for receivers. A $2K or $20K amp is not going to make $2K per pair speakers sound much different.

 

[mulester7]

Well mule, McIntosh owners do have bragging, and raving rights. You got me really tempted, regardless of my lowly Veritas. I have been going after that smooth violin sound for years. That's why I have been day dreaming about the B&W 802D (diamond tweeter), adding a pair of Mc may just seal a real deal. I am not convinced that high end amps can wake up less than mid to mid/high end speakers. I would rather believe your speakers are good and have high resolution to start with, may be they are just too insensitive/inefficient for receivers. A $2K or $20K amp is not going to make $2K per pair speakers sound much different.

....man alive, are you ever in for an enlightenment....use your Bryston amp you already have....somebody said it had very good live presence....pop an Mc solid-state pre with your Bryston amp, and call me in the morning....whew, I gotta' go get something to eat....later, Ladies and bums.....

 

[mulester7]

.....how many of you think all the pre-amps and amps sound the same?....raise your hands....ok, put that one hand down and let's break from this afternoon session for BBQ at Gene's house.....I wanna' hear them mains he got that look like Eifel Towers.....

.....Guys, you're teaching me not to speculate....I can't speak for amps made by Bryston or Adcom or Sherwood and such....I can't speak for those company's pre-amps either....other than this Mac C-26 pre, a 1795 plus shpg Placette linestage I just compared to, and a Denon seperate pre back about '90, I pitch my hook into Lake Ignorance....to me the Denon was the worst, because I never heard any live presence at all, but I had different speakers then, so I don't know....the Placette linestage pre-amp that is reputed to add NO color at all, also had no "life at all", just like the Denon....then comes McIntosh over the hill with banners....it made those cheap elements sound live to me in '86....correct room damping shore don't hurt....stewpid means you can't learn....ignorant means you ain't had the chance to learn is the problem....I don't care what guys in reviews say....I'll accept it as food for thought, but that's it....this hobby is about what the ears hear....

 

[mulester7]

.....can someone post links of Bryston pre-amps?....with hopefully a section of comments and ratings from purchasers?.....

 

[LHawes]

I'm thinkin this follow up post might be OT at about this stage in the thread but here goes. Got the ATI AT1502 today and have it running in the background. My original question pertained to soundstage and whether or not the amp or pre-amp had any effect on the perceived depth/width of that stage.

After playing a great Candy Dulfer cut called 'Lily Was Here' on the Harmon Kardon 3480 and through my Axiom M22's with a Mirage Omni S8 subby both my wife and commented on how nice it sounded. She said she couldn't imagine it sounding any better and frankly niether could I.

So I hooked up the 1502 and played the same cut at the same Receiver -18 volume setting (I know this is not an accurate or scientific test of spl's). It was clearer, cleaner, and there was this tiny little cymbal like sound coming from the left rear that I didn't here before (or didn't THINK I heard before)

The M22's are really detailed speakers and the 1502 seemed to bring out that detail in spades. Of all the terms I've tried i.e. warm/bright/round/soft here's a new one that came to mind 'lovely'. So sweet and clear.

VERY noticable at volume. Where the HK got LOUD the 1502 seems to get better, and so much easier to listen to at volume. But it never seemed to get LOUD. I worry about the speakers a bit and won't push too hard.

As far as the sound stage, I cannot really tell much difference. Again I am not A/B ing directly so all is very subjective. Seems to be much more 'present' than the HK but I don't know if that is a function of 'sound stage'

Another thing that I THINK I noticed was the imaging. Much sharper and detailed to my ears at least. As I listen now to an old Van Morrison cut, "Crazy Love" it just seems so easy to keep listening, especially for such an old recording. Nice.

Hope that helps someone make their decision in the future.

Oh and one thing I don't quite understand - my new placebo meter was pegged during the entire test.

Best to all

Larry